leopuppy04 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 OK Having a little bit of difficulty with fronts and Kinta. She doesn't 'scoot sit' and will rock back... but - the main issue is she rams me in places she shouldn't! Anyone have any ideas on how to rectify this? I've added a vid to help you see what I mean Thanks ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmqNmj_9EOs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I teach it while sitting in a chair. Get the dog to come in close, really close to get the treat. You can leave your legs out as guide so she comes in straight. Have her come right into your lap to get the food. After rewarding the close sit, throw the food off to the left or right and then have her come in again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 I teach it while sitting in a chair.Get the dog to come in close, really close to get the treat. You can leave your legs out as guide so she comes in straight. Have her come right into your lap to get the food. After rewarding the close sit, throw the food off to the left or right and then have her come in again. Would you believe me if I said she still 'pokes' when she does that? Not that she is getting anywhere save my stomach, but I assume that would carry over..... How could I get her to just sort of tilt her head up as she comes in? Bring the food up higher? I like the chair though - i'll start from there and see how we go..... darn dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Your video isn't all that clear....... Maybe she is poking you becuase she is rocking back then poking to get the treat. I would work on getting her coming in close in one movement instead of those awful rock back sits (one of mine does that too). I had to get his collar and guide him in (cheating I know) as he just couldn't get the hang of it. Also when she gets the treat, try to keep your hands in your trialling position for fronts, and let her snuffle the food out of your hand. When you go back to standing you could try holding the food slightly higher but if you can fix the rocking back I would think your problem will go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I just re watched your video, maybe keeping your hands lower might work. Can you see how you have them low and as she presents to front you lift your hands. You are making two movements that you will have to untrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 ok - will try that - I am making the two movements as i'm trying to get her head up - if that makes any sense lol.... Yeah - sorry about the video quality - hard doing it by yourself ! Thanks for the ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 LP, you may have already done this but if so, how about taking a step backwards and trying again. Stick a bit of food between your middle and index finger of one hand (I use my right) and fold your hands in front a little away from your body and down low. As your girl comes in, guide her with your hands with the food in. She will stop when she gets to the hands and food. Then draw your hands up your body like drawing a line up your middle to the height you want your hands. Only let her have the food when she is in the exact position. If she bumps you and isn't in the right position, tell her no, take a step back and do a mini come in and repeat. Then she will get exactly where to have her head and body to get the reward. But you use the hands to guide her to the right spot and stop her bumping you but still getting her head in the right position. Give her the food only when she is looking at you. She will drive to get it out of your hand but have it secure and don't let her steal it LOL. See if it works. It worked well with Tess. Plus having the legs slightly apart like already suggested helped too. With me, the only time this breaks down for some reason is in dumbell and I am working on a solution to get perfectly straight sits using this method with dumbell too. See how you go and hope it helps anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) I just re watched your video, maybe keeping your hands lower might work. Can you see how you have them low and as she presents to front you lift your hands. You are making two movements that you will have to untrain. Just tried it Pax - keeping my hands lower caused her to nudge more "(ie: target hands).... but not moving them and keeping them at stomach level worked - she just tilted her head back and scooted in thanks for the help!!! I'm still not a happy camper though - working from home and she has just trashed the yard :D PUPPIES! Who wants them!?!?!?! ETA - Arya - thanks - that was the current method we were using - It worked fine for Leo but caused her to either 'nudge' or 'rock back'... moving slower etc, didn't seem to help.... Pax' idea of keeping my hands still seems to have done the trick - am still interested in hearing other ideas though... But after what I just found in the yard - i'll be considering adoption - you may want this one Arya - she is more focussed than Leo - special bargain price??? Edited June 15, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 PS you do this in one smooth movement, not two movements. Then you shorten the movement until you aren't moving at all any more, your hands are just in the right position as the dog comes in. So the finished position is all still as the dog comes in and the dog just automatically drops into place. Doesn't take long to train in a dog that has already been taught fronts and just has the position wrong - crooked, bumping, whatever. Anyway, see if it works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 What happens if you move your hands to behind your back as she comes in? So there is nothing to bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 What happens if you move your hands to behind your back as she comes in? So there is nothing to bump. LOL - she aint bumping my hands .... bumping me somewhere else and i'd rather she didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 leopuppy. Just wait till you teach a glove retrieve and the darn dog takes it upon themselves to sit so close and then shoves both glove and nose where you would rather they didn't. Although I only discovered when it was suggested to me to use the opportunity when she returns to work fronts that she was shoving the glove and letting go but not totally removing her nose. Not sure if a judge could tell she has let go or not but I sure could when I took a step back to get another front and the glove dropped at my feet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 You could always trial and train in those cricketers crutch cup thingys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Thinking about Kinta's little pointy nose.... How about trying to teach the front in a bad way, i.e bend forward a bit and have hands in front. That usually has the dog sitting too far away but it might equal out what Kinta is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 ask my hubby about dogs with close fronts and dumbells lets just say im glad i had the kids before he got involved in the dog world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Watched a few other of your clips. Glad to see you train during the day too. LLOL. The cat at the door is cute. Suggestion, mind you, obedience trials are no longer my thing, but I have been thinking about entering a couple again. Is there a reason why you reward with food so often? No problem....but just wondering? (as this clicker training is alien to me, not the concept just the clicker). Also you tend to move/shuffle into position instead of the dog. Yet another problem I have intermittently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 (edited) Watched a few other of your clips. Glad to see you train during the day too. LLOL. The cat at the door is cute. One hungry - clicker trained kitty and guess who comes to watch :D .... LOL - yes - increasingly hard to train during the day (or at all!) in winter - but I do get some daytime training in on the weekends Is there a reason why you reward with food so often? No problem....but just wondering? (as this clicker training is alien to me, not the concept just the clicker). Also you tend to move/shuffle into position instead of the dog. Yet another problem I have intermittently. With food in particular or just simply reward so often? Kinta is only *just* learning the 'heel' and we haven't done any training for AGES so she was getting HEAPS of rewards. Also - coz what she was offering me was exactly what I wanted.... I'm also using a method that I used with Leo whereby I work on straight heeling before adding turns etc, and that has a high level of rewards to begin with - ie: just sitting in heel position - reward, 1 step reward, 2 step reward, 4 step reward, 10step reward....etc.etc.. (well after you get to 10 you increase by 10 step increments). For Leo - he doesn't get rewarded half as much ;). In terms of using *food* rewards so often - coz I find it easier - once I release her we then have a play with the toys or just razz her up, but because it is a real 'game' I don't do it till after releasing. As for me moving - I didn't even realise!! LOL! *Runs off to watch vid again*... WMR: ask my hubby about dogs with close fronts and dumbells lets just say im glad i had the kids before he got involved in the dog world :D JulesP Thinking about Kinta's little pointy nose.... rofl1.gifHow about trying to teach the front in a bad way, i.e bend forward a bit and have hands in front. That usually has the dog sitting too far away but it might equal out what Kinta is doing. I really don't want to do this as Kinta stresses quite a bit when someone leans over her. She won't do anything, particularly if it is me, but I don't actually want to do it to 'teach' her something simply because I know she finds it aversive. I just train her that it is 'ok' (for judges etc), but thats it.... Edited June 16, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Is she butting you with her nose AFTER she has completed the recall and the sit in front? Or is she butting you with her nose because she's come in so fast and so close from the recall, and then sitting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 Is she butting you with her nose AFTER she has completed the recall and the sit in front?Or is she butting you with her nose because she's come in so fast and so close from the recall, and then sitting? I think the latter. Actually - I have been told by numerous people (I my training buddies :D) that I am running back waaay to fast - so now that I have slowed down - she is bumping less :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Hi LP, I hold the food down at arms length and as he gets closer pull the food up higher, so it is at the tip of his nose when he is looking up at me. I had the same problem occasionally Just dont pull the food up too high as sometimes they will jump or sit on their back legs to try and get it. No problem now. I know how you feel when you see them charging towards you. A cricket box may come in handy when training :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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