Food Refusal

[Dogs4Fun]

Food refusal is only "stressful" and "negative" if that is how it is taught.

It can be taught positively. My cairn wagged his tail madly the whole way through food refusal in the ring or in training because he knew he ALWAYS got a jackpot at the end of it. It is simply an extension of stay with distraction training. ie "stay" means keep in the position you were left in and don't go after that dog, toy ... or food ... until you are released to it.

I have seen plenty of stressed dogs doing gloves. It is commonly trained in a negative manner.

[ness]

Not in WA it isn't. ETA you actually have seen dogs do gloves wow!!! hmm over here most would do food and apparently the same goes up in Queensland.

Edited June 14, 2007 by ness

[Sayreovi]

So no different to saying leave it when they try and eat another dogs shit.

I wouldnt think so if your dog finds shit appetising but most dogs much prefer food to shit so its harder to teach if you have a food obsessed dog.

Yet the principle is the same

The level of degree seems to be more difficult for some dogs.

I dont think we understand each other because your last post is confusing with what i have said.

[Dogs4Fun]

Not in WA it isn't. ETA you actually have seen dogs do gloves wow!!! hmm over here most would do food and apparently the same goes up in Queensland.

Well there is just a whole lot more positive training in WA.

I have seen dogs happily do gloves and dogs do gloves with a sense of dread hanging over them.

I haven't seen a dog do "speak" that has looked worried yet, but rarely get to see this in the ring.

[SwaY]

So no different to saying leave it when they try and eat another dogs shit.

I wouldnt think so if your dog finds shit appetising but most dogs much prefer food to shit so its harder to teach if you have a food obsessed dog.

Yet the principle is the same

The level of degree seems to be more difficult for some dogs.

I dont think we understand each other because your last post is confusing with what i have said.

You have some food you don't want you dog to take it you say "leave it"

You see dog shit on the grass, they sniff it and you say "leave it"

There trained to ignore/refuse the temptation

Same principle, although food maybe harder to refuse.

[PAX]

I have also seen positive trained dogs do FR, It is taught like a rule out or Zen. I think Gina O showed me and Susan Garrett.

They trained it by rewarding attention just like we do in SFE, when the dog has really good focus, get some one to offer food that is lower value than the food you have and keep rewarding (with the better food) the attention, and build from there. Apparently the more food focused the dog is the easier it is to train, so I have been told. It is a stay after all, so it should not do anything else other than stay and watch the handler while waiting for the next cue.

Edited June 14, 2007 by PAX

[ness]

Hmm PAX if it was Gina she has had a change of heart over it because she told me not to do food refusal either for UD. Then again maybe they are all just conspiring against me to give me a bit of a training challenge with gloves!!!!!

[mmoo]

Am about to go to work, but just before I go wanted to ask what different methods you guys use for food refusal? And if the dogs that are taught food refusal are taught to refuse food no matter what, or if they are taught to refuse it only on a command and what the differences would be in teaching both?

I started the "zen" style clicker refusal but interested in all experiences

In UD for food refusal the dog has to completely ignore all atemps to feed it. When you leave the dog the only command that you can give is STAY. One way to teach it is when you have another person offer the food, you leave the dog with the command STAY, then thfey approach if the dog goes for the food the person offering trhe food very gently pushes the dog's head away,with a very soft verbal correction. I hope this helps. In realation to dogs not taking food or anything else on a walk the LEAVE IT command is one of the best things any dog can learn.

[Sayreovi]

So no different to saying leave it when they try and eat another dogs shit.

I wouldnt think so if your dog finds shit appetising but most dogs much prefer food to shit so its harder to teach if you have a food obsessed dog.

Yet the principle is the same

The level of degree seems to be more difficult for some dogs.

I dont think we understand each other because your last post is confusing with what i have said.

You have some food you don't want you dog to take it you say "leave it"

You see dog shit on the grass, they sniff it and you say "leave it"

There trained to ignore/refuse the temptation

Same principle, although food maybe harder to refuse.

Umm thats what i said in my first post.

[Erny]

1. Food Refusal: Dog refuses (without being told) to eat the food UNLESS it receives the specifically taught instruction.
   
2. Leave: Dog doesn't refuse food, but does stop from taking it BECAUSE it heard its specifically taught instruction.
   

There is a further difference between 1 and 2 (above). In #1, provided the dog's training has been taken to these higher levels, the handler/owner doesn't need to be around to stop the dog from taking food.

In #2 the handler/owner needs to be there to instruct the dog to "leave it".

[Erny]

I have also seen positive trained dogs do FR, It is taught like a rule out or Zen. I think Gina O showed me and Susan Garrett.

They trained it by rewarding attention just like we do in SFE, when the dog has really good focus, get some one to offer food that is lower value than the food you have and keep rewarding (with the better food) the attention, and build from there. Apparently the more food focused the dog is the easier it is to train, so I have been told. It is a stay after all, so it should not do anything else other than stay and watch the handler while waiting for the next cue.

What if the dog enjoys the lower value food as well ..... ANY food for that matter? I am presuming it is a case of the dog not being able to have any of either?

ETA: What's the success rate (ie reliability) of this training when:

(a) There is no higher value food option available; and/or

(b) The food being offered (but which is to be refused) is a high value food?

Edited June 14, 2007 by Erny

[SwaY]

So no different to saying leave it when they try and eat another dogs shit.

I wouldnt think so if your dog finds shit appetising but most dogs much prefer food to shit so its harder to teach if you have a food obsessed dog.

Yet the principle is the same

The level of degree seems to be more difficult for some dogs.

I dont think we understand each other because your last post is confusing with what i have said.

You have some food you don't want you dog to take it you say "leave it"

You see dog shit on the grass, they sniff it and you say "leave it"

There trained to ignore/refuse the temptation

Same principle, although food maybe harder to refuse.

Umm thats what i said in my first post. :D

Exactly what i said aswell

[poodleluv]

I have a toy poodle, he does food refusal all the time unless its chicken wings lol. Seriously though I am finding it very easy to train, he knows he will get something nicer than what is offered at the end and does not mind at all. Hoping to trial U.D. this year fingers crossed!

[Dogs4Fun]

My dogs were very reliable with food refusal, regardless of the food offered (mince, cheese, hotdogs, chocolate cake etc). The only time one failed under "mock" trial conditions was when water was offered as the fluid and it was damn hot. He drank. He had never touched milk, and I am not sure he recognise water as something he had to refuse under working conditions.

I have also seen positive trained dogs do FR, It is taught like a rule out or Zen. I think Gina O showed me and Susan Garrett.

They trained it by rewarding attention just like we do in SFE, when the dog has really good focus, get some one to offer food that is lower value than the food you have and keep rewarding (with the better food) the attention, and build from there. Apparently the more food focused the dog is the easier it is to train, so I have been told. It is a stay after all, so it should not do anything else other than stay and watch the handler while waiting for the next cue.

What if the dog enjoys the lower value food as well ..... ANY food for that matter? I am presuming it is a case of the dog not being able to have any of either?

ETA: What's the success rate (ie reliability) of this training when:

(a) There is no higher value food option available; and/or

(b) The food being offered (but which is to be refused) is a high value food?

[PAX]

What if the dog enjoys the lower value food as well ..... ANY food for that matter? I am presuming it is a case of the dog not being able to have any of either?

ETA: What's the success rate (ie reliability) of this training when:

(a) There is no higher value food option available; and/or

(b) The food being offered (but which is to be refused) is a high value food?

Erny,

It is hard for me to explain (with my crappy writing skills) but I will have a go.

I am rewarding the dog for attention on me with a very high reward rate (practically shovelling in treats), you come along and offer my dog food. If it moves towards the food, you would move the food away (the dog has already learnt from other training that if s/he moves towards the food, the food goes away). I keep rewarding the dog with yummy food for attention to me. When the dogs understands not to take the food offered by you, we add to the exercise until it is complete and I can have my back turned..

You would really need to see it to understand as it is probably very different to the way you would train it.

I have also seen a very hungry Lab taught to retrieve a frankfurt in under five minutes using this type of method. The frankfurt was untouched by teeth. The same dog also heeled *to die for* over a concrete training area that was covered in cubes of devon and cheese.

The dog has learnt that the best chance of reward is from the handler.

Hope that helps and the people that showed me that have lots of 200 scores so I would say it is reliable.

[ness]

Pax yes but that same Lab will no doubt do gloves in UD like the rest of her dogs and we also heard she had never even tried that before the seminar. Maybe its got more to do with the fact that for dogs that love retrieving gloves can be seen as inherrently rewarding whereas there is no way that food refusal can be seen as a self rewarding exercise.

And by lots of 200 I hear she has at least 18 .

[wheres my rock]

food refusal is an extention of stay and i to teach my dos that focus on me gets the reward you dont get the stuff offered unless i release you and yes i do release sometimes to the bowl we also do placing food behind the dog for recalls and then send the dog back to the food food is a reward so therefore if you have trianed correctly the dog will only take the food wehn it heares a click or your verbal marker

directed retrieve is easier to train for a retrieve fanatic and less chance of losing points for minor faults as you only get one glove which is why many triallers choose it over Fd speak also allows a lot of room for minor points a moved foot can cost you a point rememebr

Personally i think food refusal can be positive it is for my dog because he knows that by refusing the food offered he gets it eventually anyway.

Personally i teah all three behaviours food refusal retrieve glove and speak then will choose the one that the dog is most comfortable as the one i use in the ring every dog is dfferent but erny is right food refusal is refusing food offfered without any extra command so if i say stay you stay you dont gawk around you dont take treats or toys of other epopel you dont listen to other peoples cues you just watch mum and the eventually the sky will rain reward whether that be food a toy or being allowed to continue your walk depends on the situation

[PAX]

Ness,

I know and she also told us that she never does food as she finds the directed retrieve so easy to train and rewarding for the dog.

I am trying to make the point (maybe badly) that FR can be positvely trained.

I said multiple instead of directed......oops.

Edited June 15, 2007 by PAX

[wheres my rock]

mine are hapy doign food refusal of curse it can be positvely trained its another proofing exercise no different to dropiing food on the ground and heeling over it or having some roll toys past on stays or while heeling or during a recall

And yes DR is easy to trian for a retrieve nut if i trialled my sheltie in ud he would be the first dog i would do FD with instead of Dr simpy because he is happy to do food refusal but struggles with retrieves

[ness]

No Probs PAX I got the message. I know she keeps telling me DR is a walk in the park - I keep telling her sure I'll send Ness over because sorry she just isn't getting it. My BC isn't a gundog although she tells me that BCs make great gundogs!!!!!

Although the latest from them is that I am apparently dead if I do food instead so I guess we must keep battling away with our DR - gee these WA people are good at positive reinforcement on their dogs BUT brutal when it comes to dealing with humans .

............... All jokes aside they are very willing to tolerate my questioning so we shall keep persisting and harassing till we sort it out.

Edited June 15, 2007 by ness