Advice Please

[wolfgirl]

Sorry bit of a long post but I want to know if the events of yesterday have set this all off.

I have a 20 month male entire German Shepherd and a 19 month desexed female lab who get on famously, very protective of each other and very bonded, they play rough but never really had a serious squabble until today.

Bit of background on them, the shepherd I got at 11 months old (he was with the breeder until that age) and is a bit timid but after lots of training and work is now much more confident and gets on with every dog we meet. The lab girl is one I have raised from 8 weeks as a guide dog and was doing extremely well and went in for Intensive Training at 12 months old, the first two months her training was fantastic but then something and we're not sure what (think she was going through a fear period and went over the edge and is now terrified of heights, vacuum cleaners, hair dryers which she never had a problem with before, she was bomb proof) so she came back to live with us at the end of January and now has issues with some dogs and tries to be too dominant. She was never like this before and had the sweetest nature and loved every dog she met but has become very selective who she will run with now.

Yesterday we had a day out at the dog resort where these two go every month and there were alot of new people and dogs there this time, as soon as we went to walk in my two were intimidated and challenged by a large dog, he left the lab alone but kept stalking my boy who started to retaliate, he would try to walk away but this dog kept stalking him, trying to corner him and growling in his face, so I and many others kept sending this dog away and the owner would reprimand him, each time we tried to go into a different run he would follow and challenge him, he ended up going for my boy who then retaliated with pure instinct to kill and my lab jumped in on the other dog as well, we finally got them all apart and my two were unscathed but the stalker ended up with a few puncture wounds. They were locked in separate runs after that.

Now today my two have been fine and were playing happily they went outside and were rough housing in the dirt patch then all of a sudden both went in for the kill, it was very serious and took 3 of us to get them apart, they both wanted back for more, I am shocked because I never thought these two would be like this with each other. They have both put themselves off to bed and are laying next to each other but not looking at each other. Just going in to check them and the shep got up and licked the lab and she returned the favour but he is still eyeballing her a bit and she is turning her head. These two are together 24/7 apart from when they go out training, they sleep in the same room and are found together all the time.

Could what have happened yesterday have set this all of? I am a bit concerned about leaving them together when I'm not there after this incident.

In all my years I haven't had my dogs fight like this except for a mother and daughter sheppie and they made up very quickly and never had another incident but these two aren't looking very comfortable with each other after this.

Would appreciate any help and advice you can give.

Thanks Joanne.

[SoL]

Personally, I wouldn't be leaving them alone together again. If they can fight once over a game, they can do it any old time, whether you are there or not. Get 2 seperate enclosed runs for when you need to leave them.

You may not like the idea, but it would be better than coming home to the aftermath of a serious blue between them.

[wolfgirl]

For the moment they will be separated when I'm out, my other concern is that normally I am the only one home through the week and there was no way I would have been able to separate them by myself, thank goodness hubby and son were home to help me.

[ness]

It could also be that they are still on edge from yesterday's incident at the dog resort. It can take up to 72 hours for the adrenalin to subside and they can be more reactive during this time so maybe they are just taking a bit of it out on each other. Let them have time to settle and wise to keep them apart when not supervised and just keep everything low key and then reintroduce them slowly after a few days when they have had a chance to recover.

I will keep rough housing at a minimum and build back up to it slowly as long as everything is ok but give them both a chance to recover a bit.

ETA. It may also be worth getting a professional opinion from a behaviourist but at least if you keep things low key and supervised you won't create any further problems between the two and give them a chance to repeat any unacceptable behaviour.

Edited June 11, 2007 by ness

[JulesP]

I would also give them both a really good checking over for any wounds, bruising etc. My 2 old dogs had 1 fight (minor) in 15 years but it was when the old boy had a sore ear and the girl grabbed it when playing. So maybe one of them is a bit sore and it was aggravated when they were playing, which turned it into a fight.

[Nekhbet]

maybe give them a bit of time apart. Skoots a VERY sorry little shit yesterday and today he's completely in boot camp now and even had a couple of antibiotics shoved down his throat for good measure. So sorry I dont know what the hell his problem is. Dont know wether its hormones or stress from me being upset but he's never had a go like this before.

Maybe Bear is just still all razzled up, and Pearl was protective yesterday as well so theyre probably just in the mood for it and the adrenaline took over again. Mina and Skoot had one almighty fight once, and again they both attacked Krueger which I had to try and separate by myself, I thought they were both the end of it but it seemed to subside after that. Bloody dogs. Give bear another rub over again and check he doesnt have any bruises we missed, maybe she did hit a sore spot and he just flew off the handle at her.

If you want to borrow a leather muzzle so Pearl cant see Bears mouth and teeth, as well as hiding inflammatory facial expressions, could stop any further fighting until they calm down.

[RottnBullies]

Deleted as

Edited June 11, 2007 by RottnBullies

[BC]

Deleted....didnt read original post properly :D

Edited June 13, 2007 by BC Lover

[cavNrott]

Yesterday we had a day out at the dog resort where these two go every month and there were alot of new people and dogs there this time, as soon as we went to walk in my two were intimidated and challenged by a large dog, he left the lab alone but kept stalking my boy who started to retaliate, he would try to walk away but this dog kept stalking him, trying to corner him and growling in his face, so I and many others kept sending this dog away and the owner would reprimand him, each time we tried to go into a different run he would follow and challenge him, he ended up going for my boy who then retaliated with pure instinct to kill and my lab jumped in on the other dog as well, we finally got them all apart and my two were unscathed but the stalker ended up with a few puncture wounds. They were locked in separate runs after that.

Could what have happened yesterday have set this all of? I am a bit concerned about leaving them together when I'm not there after this incident.

I would say what happened has set this off. I hope your dogs don't have an ongoing problem due to this. I would be worried about leaving them alone now too.

It's easy to be wise after the event but I would have packed my dogs in the car and gone home if another dog was stalking mine as you describe. The dog showed obvious intent and it was only a matter of time before it attacked. The owner of the offending dog should have removed their dog from the situation before it attacked. That would have been the sensible and considerate thing to do.

If this dog shows up at the resort again I would be asking the owner/manager or who ever is in charge to have a chat with the owner before the dog gets the opportunity to harass another dog and to explain to the owner that her dog is probably not suited to be in an environment where friendly dogs mingle freely.

[Nekhbet]

cavnrott he only had an issue with the shepherd. He didnt do it to any other dogs, and the shepherd was very clingy to the owner at the beginning and wouldnt venture too far as he didnt seem happy to leave her side. All the other dogs were not an issue irrespective of size and he hasnt had an issue with others at other group meetings, I think it was the fact that it was two entire males that were at adolescence and the shepherds owner and dog buddy were there too, then boofhead not realising that enough is enough.

Like I said I dont know wether he's stressed out because of everything thats happening lately because he's never shown that kind of pushing the point behaviour before with anyone or anything else. That or the ex is getting to him and all the strangers he's bringing in when I'm not home are making him over protective. The doggies have had it really hard over the past few weeks as well.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Nekhbet

[KOE]

Hey Wolfgirl

Kim and Elka still do that months after their brawl eyeballing etc I never leave them alone anymore unless we are home. You know what shepherds are like they do not forgive or forget what they see as a wrong done to them.

[Isabel964]

I think its because of the incident the day before...the adrenalin or whatever is still running. The owner of the other dog really should not have let it stalk your dog like that. I guess its easier to say than do, but I just feel for you because you were not in control of that dog, so what could you do?

Are you planning on getting the male desexed?

I wonder if that would help.

They sound like lovely dogs. I really feel for you and your concern. I'm sure it will all work out. Big hug.

[cavNrott]

cavnrott he only had an issue with the shepherd. He didnt do it to any other dogs, and the shepherd was very clingy to the owner at the beginning and wouldnt venture too far as he didnt seem happy to leave her side. All the other dogs were not an issue irrespective of size and he hasnt had an issue with others at other group meetings, I think it was the fact that it was two entire males that were at adolescence and the shepherds owner and dog buddy were there too, then boofhead not realising that enough is enough.

Like I said I dont know wether he's stressed out because of everything thats happening lately because he's never shown that kind of pushing the point behaviour before with anyone or anything else. That or the ex is getting to him and all the strangers he's bringing in when I'm not home are making him over protective. The doggies have had it really hard over the past few weeks as well.

I understand and hear what you're saying Nekhbet but your dog should have been prevented from stalking the other dog. Stalking is a precursor to an attack, as did happen.

I'm not surprised that the other dogs were not an issue. Your dog had set its sights on one dog and focused on that dog until he had the opportunity to attack. Had you put your dog on lead or locked him in a run the incident would have been prevented.

If my dog was being stalked by another dog I would leave (after saying a few words to the owner) unless action was taken to stop the other dog from harassing her. I see it as my job to protect my dogs and keep them safe.

I don't see the actions of your dog as being in any way protective.

I hope your dog is ok and I hope the owner of the other dog doesn't have ongoing problems.

[indi_dog]

OMG Joanne - I could not imagine Bear and Pearl fighting, they are bestest buds.

If only they could talk.

I can't offer any advice, we're a one dog household here, just moral support 'cause I bet it was one big shock :D

[Erny]

If you want to borrow a leather muzzle so Pearl cant see Bears mouth and teeth, as well as hiding inflammatory facial expressions, could stop any further fighting until they calm down.

I confess to being somewhat lost in this thread with regards to who did what to who etc., but I'd caution against having one dog muzzled freely interacting amongst any one or more other dogs. Regardless of facial expressions indicating aggression (and don't forget, eyes are part of this), there are many other postures which contribute, so a muzzle isn't going to do too much to detract from that.

In any event, the muzzled dog would have no means of protecting itself, regardless of whether it was his/her other body posturing which provoked the attack or not.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Erny

[cavNrott]

Erny, I think the muzzle topic is in fact an 'off topic' post and not related to the incident being discussed or to the dogs in question.

[*Avanti*]

Sorry to hear about this Joanne. I've had to keep dogs separated whilst not under supervision (my old boy with my young girl) but there was no other choice, he was too old to accept a new boistrous friend (different scenario).

I hope they settle soon so you can feel at ease to leave them together again.

[Erny]

Erny, I think the muzzle topic is in fact an 'off topic' post and not related to the incident being discussed or to the dogs in question.

Oh? I understood it as some offer of 'solution' to the aggro problem so that Pearl wouldn't respond to Bear's aggro facial expressions . Aren't these the two dogs who are the topic of this thread? Or is that where I've become confused?

Anyway .... no matter if I've gotten confused with who's talking about what in relation to which dog.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Erny

[cavNrott]

Yep I'm confused too and getting more confused as I try to figure it out.

You're probably right.

[wolfgirl]

Just to clarify things for you, I can understand if you are confused Even I am.

Nekhbet offered to loan me a muzzle after my two had the big altercation from the previous days event. My two dogs are 3 weeks in age apart and they are being kept together unless I am away from home to give them time for them to settle back in with each other, so far so good but are being watched like hawks for any disturbing body language. Have spoken to our trainer and she feels all will right itself given some time, but I won't place my dogs in that position again, we were there to do a tv taping which went all wrong.

Unfortunately desexing my boy isn't an option, the breeder wants to use him in her program. I have stepped up my leadership skills which they have never challenged before and hoping all will right itself and will be seeing our trainer for a chat after our session on Saturday.

Guess I have been lucky over all the years of owning dogs that this is my second major fight between any of my dogs and it took me by shock more than anything. Our trainer is also a behavouralist so we will monitor the situation very carefully.

Thanks Joanne.