stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 i've been doing lots of research into dog foods and their ingredients etc. I recently had a conversation about this with my friend, suggesting there is too much corn, wheat products etc (grains in general) in dog foods. Anyway, this guy is a vet, and is quite set in his ways and basically doesnt like to think that possibly the foods that have previously been recommended, such as Hills for example, might not necessarily be the best choices for dog owners due to their ingredients. His argument was that it has been fine for dogs all this time, so how could it be wrong? Basically, he wants to see real studies and papers that have been published knowledgable persons. So I was wondering if anyone had any copies of studies or papers etc regarding dogs eating particular grains, as well as what the nutritional requirements should be? Basically anything which might back up in any way the idea that dogs don't need all those fillers and packers that companies use today! Thank you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 www.thedogfoodproject.com is vary vary useful and i think they have various links to studies etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 www.thedogfoodproject.com is vary vary useful and i think they have various links to studies etc... I think there is no "the" in the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Yup...no 'the' and this time i'll include the actual link :rolleyes: Dogfoodproject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Here's a link to Nutrient Requirements For Dogs A bit of night time reading for you :rolleyes: It's outdated but covers a lot of the scientific research that has been done on nutrition. Not much help with your grain argument but gives a really good outline of the requirements. Trouble is, science is expensive and the only people with the $$$ to do the research nowadays are....the commercial food companies. Having said that, they are doing some good work and it is very difficult to compare our feeding habits to the past as our pets are living so much longer. One thing we are told over and over in nutrition: animals require specific nutrients, not specific foodstuffs. BTW - I feed my pup a prepared food but have nothing against raw. You'll struggle to convince most vets that anything other than commercial food is the only way to go - like many things in life it's important to be educated and make informed decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 Thanks all. Was actually the petfoodproject which sparked the debate! Appears they are just 'anybody's' who have done this research and don't have any scientific background. I couldn't find any links to studies, but will keep looking. They rated Science Diet as 1 star, because there wasnt anything lower!! That didn't go down too well. It's so frustrating. To me, it seems so obvious. I'm all for feeding commercial dog foods, but it's just a matter of looking in the ingredients list and finding one that doesn't have so many fillers etc. And Hills seems to be one of the worst at this. It's frustrating because his argument is that he has been to uni, and has been practising for 15 years now, and I am just a nobody who has read some things on the internet. He is just so set in his ways, I guess, but would really like to find something! I know dogs need carbs in some form, but not from all the junk that gets put in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 (edited) Dogs actually have no dietary requirement for carbs. They are simply a cheap and effective energy source when processed correctly (generally heat treated for commercial food). The vets are a bit limited....they get deals for selling so much food so it's no wonder they recommend it. There needs to be some sort of guideline on this....similar to the recent uproar about human doctors. There's not a lot of research in Australia on dog nutrition either - much more research $$$ to be had in livestock nutrition. ETA: I can understand your vet brushing you off to some extent as there is so much mis-information on the internet - loads of scare-mongering which is completely unsupported by research. Science is a difficult discipline to understand if you haven't studied it. But...I can certainly understand your concerns. I also did a quick search on my Uni's online journal database - not much to be had...but I didn't look all that hard and am too tired tonight! Edited June 9, 2007 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 Thank you. Yes, its a tough situation, I am actually a vet nurse at the same clinic!!! :rolleyes: I understand that he has a lot of knowledge in the areas of nutrition, and as you said, there is a lot of stuff published on the internet that really has no validity. I guess it should just be something I should keep to myself for a while. But the frustrating thing is, I am sure at no point has he ever really read through the ingredients lists on the pet foods researched what it all means! His attitude is that its all just dog food, does them no harm - mind you, my dogs have been on pedigree/friskies etc for 13 years of their lives and have yet to see a problem with them! But, I am sure that they would not be at their BEST, which is what I want to research. Will just keep searching!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Ah - so you would see all the dog food deals going through. It's a tough nut, that's for sure. I too work at a clinic when I'm not at Uni and everyone there plus my vet at another clinic (who I really respect in most things) recommend commercial food. I think, though, for the average person (and you would know there are some very average pet owners) that the commercial diets of any description are better than the rubbish they would feed them at home. You only have to look at the number of overweight animals that come into vet clinics. My vet always seems surprised to not to have to tell me to feed my cats or puppy less! But the vast majority of regulars on this forum put way more effort into their dogs than the average owner so it's not surprising that they want to find the best possible diet. Cats are true carnivores so they are a bit easier...I feed them probably half raw (fresh chicken, beef, lamb and chicken necks every second night - half premium biscuits (1/8 cup twice per day each) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 As a vet he could simply read for example that irish Setters can suffer from Wheat intolerance its in all the vet books etc we own . Just one of the many scenarios that sadly many vets chose not to want to hear or learn from. Just like years ago when Beddie breeders suggested diets for dogs that may be CT positive biut the vets would suggest diets totally not suitable for a breed known to have issues. Its really readily available to them in there own journals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 As a vet he could simply read for example that irish Setters can suffer from Wheat intolerance its in all the vet books etc we own .Just one of the many scenarios that sadly many vets chose not to want to hear or learn from. Just like years ago when Beddie breeders suggested diets for dogs that may be CT positive biut the vets would suggest diets totally not suitable for a breed known to have issues. Its really readily available to them in there own journals He pointed that out to me as soon as I mentioned dogs suffering from wheat intolerance, that Setters can suffer from them. So he knows. Just one of those things I think that its easier to just keep doing what has been done for a long time. and trust these super premiums that we sell because that is what they do and they have done their research. Funny though, that when you look at Science Diet ingredients on the dog food project, its all bad!!! But his attitude is 'how do you know its bad?' ie might be low grade ingredients, but show me the proof that its bad. SO frustrating!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 (edited) Dals have their own unique set of dietary issues too....the science is conflicting and yet a number of vets will claim they have all the answers :rolleyes: ETA: Try getting the average doctor to believe that any form of yellow food colouring (found in noodles and mayonnaise!!!) leave me with pounding, debilitating headaches for days! Edited June 9, 2007 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Mini long dachies are known to have corn issues. It is sad that a vet says prove it especially when clients come in with issues every day related to diet problems from many a source. i have setters so im careful not to feed a product that may create an awful problem having said that its like feeding beef many dogs react . I guess its like new pup owners who go to the vets for second jab etc & the vets then ask about diet & sell them something that the breeder hasnt listed for a reason,so many vets disregard good breeders for there knowledge when they could be a wealth of knowledge for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 Dals have their own unique set of dietary issues too....the science is conflicting and yet a number of vets will claim they have all the answers :rolleyes:ETA: Try getting the average doctor to believe that any form of yellow food colouring (found in noodles and mayonnaise!!!) leave me with pounding, debilitating headaches for days! probably just as hard as it is to get mine to believe that eating bread leaves me with the exact same thing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez the Norfolk Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Try this article: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html It comes out of Harvard, it's very long but there is a lot of info and references in it - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 Thanks Gomez, this looks great!! Scary reading! Cats and Dogs going into the vats????? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez the Norfolk Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 stormie, did you see this thread on DOL a few weeks ago? it's videos of an American holistic vet descrbing what goes into pet food - there is also a link to his website: http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=99951 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboyz Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 (edited) Great article Gomez - thanks for posting. Edited June 9, 2007 by badboyz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose of tralee Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 "(and you would know there are some very average pet owners) that the commercial diets of any description are better than the rubbish they would feed them at home. You only have to look at the number of overweight animals that come into vet clinics." Sorry, haven't got this quote thing worked out yet. Good point...firstly, the average joe eating high fat, high processed foods etc generates poor quality leftovers for the dog. Chips galore! In my grandmother's day (actually, my mother's day <g>, even my day), the dog may have been fed raw milk, fresh egg, raw meaty bone and trim etc plus quality leftovers. Secondly, there's the behavioral aspects of love-starved owners feeding dogs sweet biscuits because *he asked for it*. Puhleese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashka Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Vet report on Ziwi Peak a No grain No filler air dried raw food if that's of any use http://tinyurl.com/yu8knx http://www.ziwipeak.com/Vets-Q-and-A/Vet-Report-on-ZiwiPeak/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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