Putting Doggies In The Sin Bin

[Ms James]

Hi All

Our doggies are indoor/outdoor dogs - outside after their dinner at 10pm & let in mid-morning when the cats have settled down from their nocturnal shenanigans. Currently we're using the sin bin to punish unacceptable behaviour (fighting indoors & chasing the cats). We're pretty consistent with sin binning them, but I'm just not too sure if I'm putting them in the right place to do so - so far we have just put them back outside when the behaviour occurs & leave them there for 15 minutes to calm down & let them back inside, most of the time they just sit outside the sliding door and stare at us until they get bored. Is outside the right place, or should I be looking for somewhere else, such as the laundry? I'm worried that they might start associating the yard with being naughty.

Thanks for your input!

[Erny]

Toilet. It is more exclusionary than simply out in the back yard.

Make sure lid is down and toilet roll (and brush etc.) is out of reach. When you have decided there has been sufficient "sin-bin time", allow the dog out but don't make a fuss or pay attention for a while.

Oh - and only one dog at a time in the toilet.

Do you have two toilets? ;)

Edited June 7, 2007 by Erny

[Tilly]

My boys get sent to their bed. A very ticked off look from mum and a stern point is enough to send them running for their beds.

If they are consistently naughty then they are sent into the garage and the door is shut ... and they are completely ignored if I need to enter the garage while they are in detention.

[Erny]

My boys get sent to their bed. A very ticked off look from mum and a stern point is enough to send them running for their beds.

If they are consistently naughty then they are sent into the garage and the door is shut ... and they are completely ignored if I need to enter the garage while they are in detention.

Tilly - I might use "bed" as a 'time-out' (ie not in trouble but settle down) but never as a punishment (ie "sin-bin"). IMO Bed should reflect a safe-haven type environment, the same as crates for those dogs who are crate-trained.

The garage could work - provided there is little there to amuse them, if you a seeking a high-level isolation punishment. Be careful there's no nasties such as "anti-freeze" that they can get their mouths onto.

Edited June 7, 2007 by Erny

[Lablover]

Hey all,

Help me out. Why do you think, time outs, work?

[Vickie]

Help me out. Why do you think, time outs, work?

I'm curious too. I'm not sure I have ever used one, or know of a situation where I would. Now for kids...that's a whole different story ...

Edited June 8, 2007 by Vickie

[Faolmor]

Hey all,

Help me out. Why do you think, time outs, work?

Hi Lablover

I can only speak for myself and my own dogs, but I have found time-outs (or maybe a better term would be "pack separation") a useful tool in helping to teach a dog a) that unacceptable behaviour will result in an undesirable consequence, and b) to give the dog time to work out for itself, without being told or given constant commands, the best way to behave.

In my experience, with my dogs, I have found that this really does work - providing that it is used consistently, and fairly. For example, I see no point in putting a dog in time out for any longer than a few minutes. They forget why they're there, and thus learn nothing.

I would prefer to use a time-out than to shout at my dogs, or to bombard them with commands "No, stop, don't do that etc" They don't speak English and have no idea what I'm saying. A time-out is a good way to SHOW a dog what you mean, and to give them a few moments to ask themselves, "why did I just do that? It got me nowhere."

In most instances in my house, when for whatever reason we put one of the dogs in time-out, (in a separate, quiet room, with the door shut) they do usually re-emerge much calmer and in a much more productive frame of mind!

Like I said, however, this method works for me and for my dogs. I'm sure others have different methods that work for their own dogs. I hope this helps to give you one perspective on the use of time-outs

[Lablover]

Thanks Faolmor,

If time outs have worked for your dogs, .....that's good.

I have no doubt that it may "settle" some dogs.

Perfect precorrection timing and cues would be required, - for the non ideal behaviour, as some dogs may think as they sniffed the floor on the way to the time out area, may be the reason for time out?

All the same, does a dog understand the reasons for time outs. Being sent outside the house, when we think it is time for them to pee or empty? When at the end of a good training session or at a trial, and it is placed into its crate? Taken away from its satisfaction area?

I think I need further explanation, LOL.

I would be more than interested to read why Ms James dogs (not dog - any significance?) requires, time out, periods.

[Faolmor]

All really good points and questions, Lablover. Certainly something to think about. You're right - we can only ever perceive that our dogs understand us based on their behaviour in response to a certain command or situation. But whether or not they understand or comprehend on the same level...certainly something I wished I knew the answer to!

For time-outs for my dogs, like I said, I try to make them consistent. I recognise that consistency to me is not the same as consistency to a dog, but for my part, I try to use the same words, same room, same tone of voice etc. I know my dogs at least recognise this routine, even if they don't comprehend it on the same level as I expect from them.

I could imagine that the dog could perceive any number of reasons for a sudden exclusion. But based on the fact that when they return from a time-out, they don't tend to reoffend with the same behaviour (at least, not immediately), I can only take this to mean that, for whatever reason, the dog has chosen not to re-offend. Why? I would like to think it's because they understand the circumstances behind their time-out. But then, I'll never know, because I don't speak dog and never will. Neither will my dogs ever speak human. It's all just guess-work!

I guess we can only go on results and make our own assumptions in the end. But you raise some excellent points that anyone interested in canine behaviour should keep in mind when demanding anything of an animal with a mind of its own and an inability to understand human social rules, customs and expectations.

The most important thing, to me at least, is to make the time-out quick, consistent, and to remain calm and above-all patient with the dog. I think perhaps also a time-out is a good tool for those inclined to lose their tempers and scream at their dogs - preferable to separate an animal for a few minutes, than to scream at it, or worse, strike it. Ultimately, the dog might not understand any of the punishments...but I'm sure the dog would prefer a time-out to a belting.

[Lablover]

Ultimately, the dog might not understand any of the punishments...but I'm sure the dog would prefer a time-out to a belting.

Damm right Every so often, I still feel as though I have to bite my tongue (I rarely loose my temper) when one of my dogs may not be perfect as I expect.

From time to time I might cue them with a totally unknown word, and watch their body language. One will cock their head every time. One will lower an ear. One will try to jump on me. One will stare with an unusual look. The 13 year old does not really care, and walks away, but she is retired.

How I love watching canine behaviour, especially in a pack situation.

[Cosmolo]

The problem i have with time outs is that they don't teach the dog how to behave in a given situation at the time and when the dog is presented with the same circumstance, they often repeat the behaviour and get another time out. My preference is to give some kind of correction where the dog remains with you and then teach them what to do in place of the unacceptable behaviour- giving you the opportunity to see if your correction was effective and the dog the opportunity for a reward.

Faolmor- in my experience, the dogs do repeat the behaviour fairly readily after a time out- is it because the concept is inneffective or the timing etc is way off? I think its a difficult correction to use efficiently and prefer other techniques for the most part. I do agree though that the time out can be good for the owner to settle down as nothinng constructive will be achieved with an angry owner.

[leopuppy04]

I think its a difficult correction to use efficiently and prefer other techniques for the most part. I do agree though that the time out can be good for the owner to settle down as nothinng constructive will be achieved with an angry owner.

Precisely. I often use a 'time out' if that is what you want to call it, when a dog is becoming too rambunctious. Not really as a 'training' tool but more so to stop the dog from building up even more into a nuthouse and also to stop me from letting my top blow off ! I don't think it modifies behaviour, but it does 'calm down' or rather 'diffuse' the situation. So like someone else pointed out - they use the beds as a Time out.... thats what I use...

Erny - while I think the toilet is a great idea - I just had a mental image of the owners then deciding they needed to 'go' but couldn't because the dog was in there .... not the whole concept of the idea true, but once it popped into my head, I had to giggle

[Working_Setters]

I use a form of "time out" I guess you'd call it, in my training. Frequently when training in the field, I'll be running one dog and have another on leash. As soon as the dog that's down (running) performs below my expectation level, I pick them up and turn the second dog loose. If the dog that was down failed in a specific way, ie not stopping to whistle, then there will be a more immediate consequence in addition to being picked up. But if the "failure" was less specific, just generally sloppy work and a below average performance, then I know of no better way to correct this than to show that it will not be tolerated and hence picking up the dog (leash it). The pleasure and delights of running in the field are only available to those that do it my way, time out on the end of a leash awaits those that don't play by these rules.

I think the time out, or more specifically the jealousy it creates, can be used to good effect, particularly in dogs that need a bit of "firing up". Perhaps some agility people might train in a similar way?

[jbbb]

Faolmor- in my experience, the dogs do repeat the behaviour fairly readily after a time out- is it because the concept is inneffective or the timing etc is way off? I think its a difficult correction to use efficiently

I have recently covered this in the National Dog Trainers Federation course.... dogs learn by understanding patterns. Dogs also need to be corrected no more than 3 seconds after the act, but preferably closer to half a second. Because you cannot put a dog in timeout within 3 seconds of him doing the behaviour, you need to use a 'marker' (ie something that tells the dog he is doing something wrong, and the consequence will follow).

So, what does this mean? When a dog does something you dont want it to do, say "Timeout" firmly, then put the dog in timeout. When this is done consistently, the dog will understand the pattern - that doing the behaviour = you saying "Timeout" = him being shut away.

After a few repitions, the dog then understands the consequence of the bad behaviour and stops that behaviour because it results in a consequence it does not want (ie timeout).

The reason you say 'Timeout' is to let the dog know that what it is doing is the direct cause of the timeout (the 'marker'). You should not give your dog any other command between saying 'Timeout' and putting him in timeout, otherwise he will think he is being punnished for following your next command. You should also not make any eye contact with the dog. Just physically move it into the timeout area.

Oh, something else I just thought of, is that you should probably use a special word for the timeout. If you use 'NO' for timeout and the same word for just general bad behaviour with no timeout, then the dog will get confused and think that it wont necessarily get timeout when you say 'No'. Consistency is the key!

I hope that makes sense. I am in the middle of my course, and this is my understanding of what we were taught.

[Ms James]

Thanks, guys!

As per Erny's suggestion, I'll use the loo & the bathroom to separate them (DOH! hadn't been separating them when they go outside), that way we can still have the ensuite if anyone in the family needs to do a little wee walkies We have very sensitive bladders in this family

The only 'marker' we've been using if they fight inside or chase the cat is 'outside', but we also use 'outside' to get them...well...outside , I definitely think we'll be switching to 'timeout' when they chase & then put them in the bathroom.

We have found that there's a noticeable improvement in their behaviour since we've implemented the timeout about a month ago, they fight a lot less inside. I want them to gradually understand, though, that chasing the cat is not on, because the cat is an angry ball of furry rage & can be more than a match for them They're fine with the other two cats we have, because both of those cats grew up with doggies & therefore know that if you run while the dog is there, the dog will think it's a great game & will chase.

Themis, on the other hand, is a very old, very grumpy (albeit beautiful) cat, who grew up as an only cat with zero contact with dogs. As much as Themis is beautiful, he's also a bit, shall we say, thick. After 18 months of living with the dogs, he's yet to figure out the dashing across the room to chasing ratio, and will almost always make a mad dash from one end of the house to the other. It's actually quite funny to watch when he crosses from the carpet in the livingroom to the tiles in the kitchen. Yes, we do stop giggling long enough to timeout the dogs! Roggie is actually very good with Themis, & will drop if Themis is sitting quietly somewhere, taking the hissing and spitting aimed in his direction in his stride. But if Themis bolts and does his mad-cat-on-crack impersonation, all bets are off, the prey drive kicks in & both doggies go for it with much barking, hissing, and the blood...poor Roggie & Bella have both had to have their noses nursed back to health after a kitty-claw incident.

I figure it's just easier to train the dogs to not chase the cat than it is to get the cat to just accept that there's big slobbery furry things wanting to sniff him. It might take a while, and we probably won't get them 100% Themis-proofed, but we have managed to get the chasing incidents down from a few times a day to just a few times a week...so there is improvement there

One day I'll post a picture of Bella licking our kitten Mozzie's face. The look on the kitten's face is priceless everytime she gets a nice slurp on the side of the cheek

[Tonymc]

Timeout is a discipline that Nature itself uses.I have seen in Wild Dogs and Horses so often.you will see an old Mare chase a Youngster from a Mob with Neck extended,Teeth Showing,Ears flat and facing the Youngsters direction.then when its time to let the Younster back in the Mob,the Mare will turn away from him on about 45 degrees and thats his signal to come back in. Tony

[Jennifer]

HI,

I've always used time out with my bully breeds. My pitty can be a bit much longer. It works a treat for me.

When he is naughty, i get him to come and sit and tell him 'no, that's bold, timeout', he knows what it is straight away

Edited June 10, 2007 by Jennifer

[Lablover]

Na, LOL, still do not get it. Anyone have a scientific study on time outs?

And I suppose I am being anal.......as I tend to be regarding behaviour.

"Time outs are a form of punishment. Punishment does not build behaviour; only reinforcement can build behaviour. Punishment can only suppress behaviour."

As mentioned every study I have read, as is above.

Often I wonder why we make dog training so hard, nevertheless!!!

[Bubitty]

Time out works like a dream for us.

Sometimes when Bubby gets too nosey or pushy, after 2 warnings we will "time out" and into the kitchen he goes. After about 5 mins we let him out. He is always completely settled after this and will stop being pushy or will watch what we are doing without poking his nose right in and trying to join in.

It works like a dream and has had no negative effects for us. He is VERY NOSEY and likes to know what is going on so having his view blocked for 5 mins is very effective.

[The Spotted Devil]

MsJames

I don't use time-outs at all - just ignore and reward as appropriate. I do, however, have 2 Burmese cats who were highly displeased with the intruding puppy...especially when he delicately picked up Lilly's tail and tried to carry it off to his bed :D Lilly teases the daylights out of Zig and young Bronte can't but help dash across the room in front of him. I deal with it from a number of angles....first establishing a "leave" command with lots of praise as soon as he does, some clicker work to encourage eye contact with me when the cats are in the room, giving everyone some separate time and special attention and, finally, a back up water spray kept for emergencies. Although less than 7 months old, the lad is getting the message - not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but he's improved out of sight. He's just desperate to play with them but they don't appreciate his wet nose in their lovely fur nor his goofy play bows Not sure if any of that helps but good luck!