Head Halter And Collars

[cavNrott]

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Edited June 8, 2009 by cavNrott

[leopuppy04]

I do not see any reason to fit one on a dog that's less than knee height or on most pups, that's for sure.

Agree completely - There is waaaay too much distance between the lead and halter for my liking! Not to mention - puppies haven't finished growing yet.... older puppies (read 9mths +) I wouldn't mind but definately not under 6mths!!

[Poodle wrangler]

Poodle wrangler- i watched the first video and have a problem with a couple of things-

Firstly he says that correction/ prong collars are not good because your correcting the dog when they're near you and they learn being near you is a dangerous place to be- i don't know about anyone else but if a dog is walking with me, i don't give a correction on any piece of equipment!

No problem with the food lure but it is obvious to me that that dog has absolutely had training so i don't believe its necesarily realistic and practical to use that as an example. I also teach loose lead walking and heel as 2 separate exercises.

Thanks for that. I didn't want to suggest prong collars are necessarily bad. I used a check chain initially with my small dog (trainer required them- Bark Busters puppy school about 6 years ago, say no more :rolleyes: ). Check chain was never used as a yanking device or to hurt my dog, though.

[Rusky]

There is a vid that comes with the purchase of head halters, maybe someone has a copy you can watch. It seems to me that the halter was put on and left on? The trainer really needs to demo the use with a dog already used to the collar and then demonstarte for you how to put it on, make sure it fits correctly and that you have a secondary collar. I use a rope but blackdog have the combination which is really nice.

Unfortunately unless the stages of fitting and using are done correctly for every dog then dogs which may have benefitted by the collar can be freaked out and unhappy.

Have you seen the Illusion collar which Cesar Milan has developed and is promoting with the idea of using twin collars one high up around the neck like chokers would be positioned. I like the look of the collar and would be great to keep the dog in behind you without accidental strangling by inexperienced users.

[Erny]

All the gismo and fuss regarding correct handling of the head-halter, double leads/collars etc. seems a bit over the top for a pup of this age who quite probably could have been learning loose lead walking if only the training technique could have been explained and demonstrated.

[Kelpie-i]

Agree Erny, I have never needed any more than a lovely flat collar and lead to teach a young pup this age the art of walking nicely on the lead.

[Rusky]

Depends on the size of the dog really, the home situation, the walking areas and the way the owners live with their dogs. I had a 5 month old english mastiff arrive at training with the owner almost airborne behind her.

I agree with you both generally but knowing how to use a collar can go a long way to help a nice walk. If the owners are unable to walk the dog it won't get walked.

Flat collar first choice

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I might be overly cynical, but I operate from the expectation that any aversive tool is probably going to be used incorrectly, and I generally factor that into my advice. The number of badly fitted haltis I've seen, it makes me wrinkle up my face in sympathy for the poor dogs. I'm sure you can use them properly, just as you can use a choke chain or a prong properly, but most people, especially novices, can't (or won't, or don't - whatever).

If there is handler incapacity (mental, emotional or physical) that precludes training loose lead walking on a flat collar and the halti is the difference between the dog getting a walk or not getting a walk, I'd fall down on the side of recommending it. It really isn't a first resort tool tho' and I won't use one on my dogs.

[Erny]

Well written response, Anita. I work and think similarly.

[Tonymc]

Monie,time for a new Trainer. Tony

[Rain]

Thanks for all the input, I agree with you Erny too much fuss for his age, things should be easyier than this (training methods), i walk him twice a day and we do our training then also, so i do put alot of time into him.

I dont understand what the home situation or how i live with my dog has got to do with this topic, can you explain what you mean Rusky please?

Tonymc i have 4 lessons left (paid) and thats it for me.

[cavNrott]

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Edited June 8, 2009 by cavNrott

[Jeff Jones]

I agree with cavNrott it may be best to cut ur losses with this trainer.

[Mystiqview]

I agree with the others here re the instructor not knowing how to correctly teach methodology with each piece of equipment around. No one has/wants the time to put into correctively teaching. Then again, there are those pupils, that no matter how much you try, they will NEVER listen.. The "oh buts" start.

Also as an obedience instuctor at a club, it is also very difficult to take aside each and every individual who is having problems. Class sizes are just way too large!

My own puppies I actually train to walk beside me without a leash! I start in the house preferably in a hallway where the dog cannot overally move away from me. I use high value food or toys to encourage the dog to be with me. I do this for very short periods of time - frequently.

The problem with classes is that a club/instuctor sees a dog pulling and goes "head halter needed here please" and of course, head halter is fitted, often badly, because one of the leading brands sold, do not allow or variable sizes in muzzle length and bridth. Then to add to the mix they fit a check chain to the dog and attach both to the lead and pull the dog up. No time is allowed for the dog to get used to the new apparatus.

We all know that when introducing collars to a dog, is to introduce it slowly, and let the dog walk around with the collar, have a game in it so it does not become a tool of 'destruction' rather than have a positive effect. No time to do this when at a training session. Best thing is to take it home, let it on the dog without a leash, have a game, and let the dog know it is not a bad thing.

Clicker training.. Good, but sometimes not practical in a class situation. This is best taught in smaller groups where you can observe and direct accordingly on what you are looking for and what and when you should 'click' to reward a particular behaviour. Then people want to have push button dogs.. Show once.. and the dog MUST do.. Some dogs are just slower on the uptake than others.

[Arya]

Here's my two cents worth. I have never been a fan of head halters, only generally seeing dogs uncomfortable and learning nothing as the head collars are often used really as a restraint mechanism rather than a proper teaching aid. It's hard to get this across to people who are using them incorrectly. They often go back to the squashed up eyes on their dog and sore bridge of the nose as soon as you turn your back! However... there are some instances where I think they are a really seriously good bonus, when worn under strictly the right instruction. If you are an elderly person with a dog that is a handful, it is sometimes the only way you feel you can comfortably take your big bouncy retriever or whatever for a walk without feeling like you're going to have an accident. In these cases I'd recommend them to someone AS LONG AS they went with careful instruction and strict instruction to lead/obedience train them in a safe space like the back yard to teach them not to pull using other methods so that if necessary they can walk on a flat collar too. It's not always practical to suggest to people to use a pinch collar or even a regular correction chain as they see it as 'cruel' LOL. In reality, I think the head collar can be more dangerous to the dog's neck. But... lots will disagree with me.

I would like to see ob clubs where head collars are used have the trainers correctly trained in how to use them. An experienced user, I'm sure, can teach their dog on a head collar without risk of harm to the dog or no learning taking place. It's just that like any tool, you probably have to know how to use it.

[Kaz]

Another '2 cents worth'. I agree with the other posts.

Get a trainer who knows what they're talking about.

Maybe you need to take a break from training classes and just concentrate at home on getting your dog to walk on a loose lead.

With every single one of my foster dogs that pulled on leash, I used the method of simply not going anywhere until they had stopped pulling. And that meant waiting till quite a few of them had thrown a temper tantrum on the end of the leash. They all quietened down after a while and gave up when they realised it wasn't going to achieve anything.

If they forgot this occasionally I would simply spin around and head off in the other direction. It really keeps them on their toes.

It may take some time and it can be a little embarrassing in public but it has always worked for me.

I walk my dane on a prong as he has had special issues in the past. He is beautiful to walk now and he really doesn't need correction on the prong so effectively its as if he was walking loose leash on a soft collar.

I never walk any of my rescue dogs on anything but a soft collar as the 'not going anywhere until you behave' method works so well.

[Mystiqview]

Never had to use a head halter. I have a couple in stock in case in training class, one needs to be whipped out. Also not needed to date. I tried one out once at a local market when i had all four dogs in toe as a test... the number of ignorants that think they are muzzles are unbelievable! was even told I should be bringing an aggressive dog into public.. You should have seen their faces when I told them it was not a muzzle and the dog could still bite.

Too many times I have seen head halters been recommended to a person for a dog which had pulled. The dogs ever since have required head halters as nothing was ever done to correct the problem in the first place.. then the person who gave them the head halter never bothered to explain how to correct on a head halter... :rolleyes: they thought it was the same correction method used in check chains.

Head halters manage - NOT fix a problem. Training still needs to be done to fix a pulling dog.

[laffi]

Head halters manage - NOT fix a problem. Training still needs to be done to fix a pulling dog.

well said :rolleyes:

[Rain]

Too many times I have seen head halters been recommended to a person for a dog which had pulled. The dogs ever since have required head halters as nothing was ever done to correct the problem in the first place.. then the person who gave them the head halter never bothered to explain how to correct on a head halter... :rolleyes: they thought it was the same correction method used in check chains.

Head halters manage - NOT fix a problem. Training still needs to be done to fix a pulling dog.

Thats what i have learnt now reading everyones posts, What does it say about a trainer when all he suggested for pulling was a halti though? Does that mean he doesnt know any other methods? Or was it just easyier for him to throw on the halti.

I thank everyone again for there suggestions, help and pm's.

[Mystiqview]

Personally, I think the 'trainer' and the 'trainee' thinks problem solvered. Head halter was used to stop the pulling along with the belief (not to mention advertising propaganda) that they are kinder than all other collars. The saying "out of sight outa mind" comes to thought here.

Then again, the person may think that there is NO cure to stop their dog pulling, so will not make any further effort to get the halter off in favour of a flat collar.

The other problem you face when taking obedience classes, is the size of the class is anything up to 20 people per instructor, so there is no time to take aside each and every person who has a problem. Unfortunately you have to cater to the majority rather than the minority.

Another problem, also is the person you are trying to teach, does not want to listen.. You get to the point sometimes, where you will recommend something. If the person does/tries something about it, you will try to spend some time with them, if not you tend to spend the time elsewhere where it is more appreciated.