Head Halter And Collars

[Rain]

I have done a search and been reading about different collars as at my basic obedience class i was using a soft nylon collar and my boy was pulling a bit on his lead. I asked the instructor how to correct this, his answer was to put a head halter on my 5 month old (lagotto). Straight away my boy slumped to the ground very unhappy with it and tried to paw it off, I was then told to pull his head up with the lead so he would stand up.

With the head halter on he didnt pull but he was like a different dog, he just kept slumping to the ground and pawing at it.

That is the only method advised to me on pulling.

I notice alot of different opinions on the halti, some positive some not.

Confuses me even more whether i should use one or try something else.

Any suggestions please

[poodlefan]

Your boy clearly finds the halter highly aversive. Ask yourself if you want him to experience a highly aversive tool that's doing that to him whether he's pulling or not.

I've linked this before but this article pretty much sums up my views.

Any trainer who has to slap a head halter on a 5 month old pup to stop it pulling doesn't rate with me. That this particular training tool rates so highly with the "purely positive" brigade defies logic.

Edited June 6, 2007 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Any trainer who has to slap a head halter on a 5 month old pup to stop it pulling doesn't rate with me.

I agree, PF. In these sorts of cases it always strikes me as a substitute for being able to teach technique.

That this particular training tool rates so highly with the "purely positive" brigade defies logic.

Complete puzzlement with me too, other than it's an 'easy sale' because the tool looks nice enough. "You can't tell a book by its cover" is an ancient saying .................. and yet the powers that be and authorities who should know better have themselves breached these very wise words - worse because they would be aware that the unknowing public will hang on them, as will the dogs.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Erny

[Rain]

Thank you PF for the link, and yes there is such a huge change in his personality from when the instructor put one on him to when he wears his soft collar, it was like owning two different dogs. Like the article says theres my answer.

Edited June 6, 2007 by monie

[poodlefan]

In this case, Monie I'd be suggesting a limited slip collar and a serious effort to teach him not to pull.

Is he clicker trained?

[Rain]

Thanks erny also, the trainer sells the head halti's and half the dogs in class wear one, as people listen and trust the trainer as they assume his should have the best knowledge. It just didnt sit right with me.

[Rain]

No PF not clicker trained, should i look into that? I was training him in soft collar with raw treats. As he is very food oriantated.

[poodlefan]

I think having a clicker trained dog is a very successful way to train for loose leash walking because at the moment the leash loosens you can get that marker in.

Frankly a couple of one on one lessons with a decent private trainer would be the most effective method of achieving this.

[Erny]

Thanks erny also, the trainer sells the head halti's and half the dogs in class wear one, as people listen and trust the trainer as they assume his should have the best knowledge.

I agree - this is the problem when there are trainers who don't have a broad knowledge base of training techniques and of equipment and their proper use and effect/affect. It is not the shame of the people who go there. After all - it is because they 'don't know' that they go to training in the first place.

I am not a head-collar 'basher' ...... they have their place but IMO in limited circumstances for them to be a necessity. But like any piece of equipment, need to be understood so that appropriate handling can be taught and undertaken. Limitations of equipment need also to be understood.

More often than not, dogs are fitted with head-collars when it is unneccessary and often-times harmful to do so. And if the trainer had any expertise with the head-collars, he/she should've known to at least explain that they should be introduced to dogs bit by bit - that it is not ideal nor helpful to simply fit one on a dog and proceed with training.

[Rain]

At training my boy is kept very close to my left leg almost touching me, and i have to keep getting his attention when training him as the trainer wants the dog to be looking at our faces the whole time. Would clicker work in a case like this?

Would you know of any good private trainers in brisbane?

Erny- thats what happened the halti went on and we started back into the class, no bit by bit, he slumped to the ground, pull him up, slumped to ground, pull him up. You get my picture.

I really appreciate your and PF's help.

[leopuppy04]

Just to put out a *pro* head collar thought into the mix (although I don't disagree with a lot everyone has said!)

*Monie - some dogs just don't 'jive' with the head collar - so if YOU don't feel comfortable using it, don't! No one says you have to

*While the halter can be a little aversive, I still like them as *when used correctly* it makes it so easy to regain control and begin 'management' training. It allows you to have the right moments to reward etc, without constantly fighting the dogs. I have used halters on both of my dogs and some stage in their life. I have been able to wean them off no problems, and not lost any of the behaviours I have built up with the H/C. The key is, like any training tool - knowing how to use it appropriately and what dogs to fit them on ;). Trainers also need to know the RIGHT way to fit them, which most don't! But just like any training tool, they are incredibly useful.

*just like a check chain - anybody can own one - which makes it incredibly hard as people who should never have one do!

*Personally - has anyone ever had a young pup fight the collar and lead? I always saw this as a common problem initially. So for a dog to fight a head collar (new collar and lead) isn't that weird IMO

Have PM'd you Monie

ETA: I'm a lover of Clicker training, and I find it a great way to communicate in ALL aspects of training including LLW ;)

Edited June 6, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Tapferhund]

Erny, couldn't agree with you more ,I am not a head collar fan either and I am yet to see a dog 'happy' in having one on let alone being trained in one..........the poor dogs just can't concentrate at all. Most Chiro Vets don't recommend them either due to the spinal damage they can cause if used incorrectly.

[leopuppy04]

Erny, couldn't agree with you more ,I am not a head collar fan either and I am yet to see a dog 'happy' in having one on let alone being trained in one..........the poor dogs just can't concentrate at all. Most Chiro Vets don't recommend them either due to the spinal damage they can cause if used incorrectly.

Just to be a pain (and get you guys to love me even more ) can I just say that both of my dogs, once accustomed to the halters are two happy pooches on their halters - and are able to be trained on them ;).

They also regularly visit a chiro and have had no ill effects to the halters.

Having said that...... I *do* agree, but IMO - it is all in the hands of those who use them! 90% of people don't know how. Just like check chains and the ilk, they simply shouldn't be sold to the general public ;)

[Cosmolo]

Agree with what you're saying LP but unfortunately, most people don't go through a process when starting with a headcollar- they put it on and try to 'train' straight away. I also think that headcollars are more difficult to get a dog to be accepting of once they are out of their critical period, in comparison to other equipment choices.

Most dogs have worn something around their neck by the time they are 16 weeks so the act of putting a slip collar or correction chain on is not instantly aversive, whereas a dog who has never felt a headcollar, the very feeling is aversive. (NB. i am talking about the equipment being put on itself, not once training has begun)

To the OP, its important that the instructor selects equipment to suit your dog and provides instruction on how to use it- a headcollar MAY be a good choice, but you haven't been given the right strategies to implement before you start training with it. Ask your instructor about the problem and then, if the answer is not satisfactory, you may want to seek a second opinion. Your dog needs to enjoy the training you do with him, regardless of what equipment is on him.

And PF- totally agree with the comment about headcollars being the positive trainer's tool of choice- especially when often little instruction is given as to the ins and outs of them

[Poodle wrangler]

I was thinking about a halti, anything really, after getting a sore arm at training last week . My dog's the same age as yours.

I found these videos on loose leash walking/ heeling:

http://www.amazingdogtrainingman.com/videos/leashwalking.htm

http://www.amazingdogtrainingman.com/video...ashwalking2.htm.

Am interested if experienced people think these vids are OK?

Some videos on YouTube had trainers yanking a dog back into heel position, using the leash . I'd read that pulling against the dog isn't a good idea as it only encourages them to pull back. Ignored those and tried the ones above, instead.

I tried some more training at home, off leash and on leash, with hand containing food down at my side, encouraging dog into a heel position or loose lead walk. Did much better without his nose to the ground and agility nearby as distractions. Kept it short, too.

My training is a beginner obedience class (local club) which is quite big and the trainers are all volunteers, so do their best, but it's not ideal. There's not really enough space to stop dead without other people running into you .

[poodlefan]

I found it telling that the trainer asked Monie to use the head collar/leash to pull the pup to his feet when he lay down.

If I'm teaching a dog that the lead is always meant to be loose, I'm hardly going to reinforce that by hauling him to his feet on it am I? That action alone on a young pup's head/neck is not a healthy thing.

Monie if you start a separate post in training asking for trainer recommendations in Brisvegas, it may get more attention.

[Rain]

Cheers for that !

[Cosmolo]

Poodle wrangler- i watched the first video and have a problem with a couple of things-

Firstly he says that correction/ prong collars are not good because your correcting the dog when they're near you and they learn being near you is a dangerous place to be- i don't know about anyone else but if a dog is walking with me, i don't give a correction on any piece of equipment!

No problem with the food lure but it is obvious to me that that dog has absolutely had training so i don't believe its necesarily realistic and practical to use that as an example. I also teach loose lead walking and heel as 2 separate exercises.

[cavNrott]

.

Edited June 8, 2009 by cavNrott

[poodlefan]

C&R:

The problem I found was that not many trainers are experienced in training with the Halti so therefore don't like them. It's the same thing really as those who condemn the prong collar without having ever learned how to use one correctly.

Not necessarily. The problem I find is that most people, no matter how well you train them, don't use the halti properly and that, once fitted, its the rare handler that ever weans the dog off one. How often have you seen a dog being walked with a halti and a double or two leads? That's how they are meant to be used. Dogs DO learn to pull on them and DO end up being jerked around on them.

I don't dislike halti's because I'm unfamiliar with them. I dislike them because I see them being misused a lot by people who are told that they are a "kind" alternative to other correction collars when they simply aren't. I'd never say I'd not recommend one under any circumstances but I'm definitely not a fan. I do not see any reason to fit one on a dog that's less than knee height or on most pups, that's for sure.

Edited June 6, 2007 by poodlefan