Aggression Towards Kids Next Door

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Hi Everyone !

I have a 6mth old border collie male (entire) - and we have never had a problem with him being aggressive or scared of any one or any dog he meets. We have never had any reason to worry...until Saturday afternoon.

The kids next door came over & asked to pat the dog. Of course, we didnt see a problem with it and took him out the front on the leash for the kids to pat him. The kids are 6, 8, and 10.

The 8yo went to pat him, and Zorro started barking aggressivley and nipped her hand. She then ran off crying back home. We were in such a state of shock and thought that the council would come and take our little man away. I ran over to make sure she was okay, and everything was fine, she was still crying though. I suggested to her mum that it would be a good idea for the kids to socialise with the puppy so he gets to know them (apart from hearing them over the fence - he runs up and down with them when they play up the side of their house).

So we brought the kids inside the house, still kept pup on the leash so he wouldn't attack. He still barked aggressively at them, then after a while settled down, but he was still not himself. He also seemed to be hiding by my fiance a fair bit.

We thought that perhaps as he hasn't really been around a lot of children, that he might just be unaware of them. So we wanted to test this out to rule out if it was all children, or just these kids from next door. We took Zorro to the dog park that afternoon, there were a few kids there and he was completely himself around the kids, adults & the dogs. We then thought that as the kids might be teasing him or somethign during the day. We have found sticks and drink bottles and food in our yard, all of which were not our own, so we think they are feeding the dog or throwing things over the fence.

On Sunday morning, we thought to take Zorro to our local markets up at Forest Lake to see his reaction to lots of kids, all ages, as well as people & different sounds etc. Again, not a problem & he was very well behaved.

That afternoon, the kids came over about 3 times wanting to play with him, so we brought him out & all sat down on our driveway. He still wasn't 100% at first, but again, settled down. I gave the kids a treat to feed him and send to just give him the treat, not to pat him as he is unsure. The 8yo though didn't listen and as soon as she gave him the treat, she pat him on the head, and again he went to bite her and started barking. We told the kids not to pop their heads over the fence or talk to him, or throw food etc over as it is making him uncomfortable. They agreed.

When we got home from work last night, I found in his bed (where he puts all his collections of toys, rocks, sticks etc) a stick & a zip lock bag with something like a choc cake all mushed up and melted in there. We know that it is not ours, so I collected it and put them in a plastic bag as proof to take next door.

We have now put up a fence barrier so he just gets to stay under our large outdoor covered area, and have extended it out a bit so he has a grass area to run up & play and do his business. This not only protects the kids next door if they jump in to the yard but moreso protects Zorro if the kids do that, or continue throwing things over the fence. Its his first day at home with these new arrangements today so I'm dying to see how my little man is coping.

I spoke to the breeder and she thinks it sounds like fear aggression - that obviously he remembers something that these kids have done to him & now he is scared.

Does that sound right ?? Help ! How can I control this ?

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Maybe it's because you are bringing strangers onto his territory or as the breeder suggests, it's these particular kids that have done something.

Some dogs just don't like kids particularly because they are noisy and unpredictable. He might feel overwhelmed with 3 at once.

My dogs don't necessarily enjoy people coming on to the property but in the park they are pretty sociable.

And if your boy meant to really hurt, he could have done. Don't let kids jump into your yard would be my suggestion. What would you want him to do if a burglar came in - you are giving him mixed messages in my opinion.

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

I thought it could be a territory thing also. The breeder & I thought that perhaps the kid could come over one day when we are playing with him, so he is in a happy frame of mind, then the child can play ball a bit with him.

I know that he could have bitten alot harder if he had of wanted too. Its hard to know what the kids do when we are not home. I have told the kids that they are never allowed to jump in the yard as we don't know how he would react, especially when we aren't home, we can't control him. At any rate, they shouldn't be coming in to our yard anyway.

What do you mean about the mixed messages?

Do you think it could have anything to do with him not being de-sexed ?

[ShellyBeggs]

A good dog behaviourist would be a big benefit to get to the real problem!

It certainly sounds like he is worried about these kids (i won't begin to guess if its fear) and I would certainly be having a word with the neighbour (not just the kids) about them throwing stuff over the fence and possibly jumping over the fence.

And is it just the one kid that he reacts to? I would be asking what she did to the dog in front of her parents! She may not have done anything but she may well have too!

Maybe you could have the kids meet you at the park (non-threatening environment) and see if he reacts to them there away from his territory.

Good Luck!

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Hi Shelley,

Thanks for your advice.

I suggested to the kids that one day they should meet us down at the dog park where its on neutral ground.

I also think its a good idea to talk to the parents too, as I said, I am keeping the bag of stuff we found in the yard & will show the mother. Even if she denies it in front of us, she may very well tell her kids off for it.

Just spoke to my fiance who just got in - everything is fine with the pup - fence is still up & no sign of any destruction. Good little man !

[cramet]

iam with what your breeder said the kids next door have done something to your dog

i have seen it befor and the kids used to tease the crap out of the kids

when no one was around and we couldnt work out why the dog wanted to rip of the kids heads so we set up a vid camera and presto problem solved my freind ended up moving to solve the prob coze the parents didnt care

[ShellyBeggs]

Let us know how you go with talking to the parents......and with the park experiment!!!

I have known quite a few bc's and have one now.....they can get quite sensitive about people or things that have given them a fright.

Mine is scared of my umbrella and barks and growls at it when ever he sees it (which isn't often in Melb.) all because when he was about 6 months old it was leaning in the corner to dry and he brushed past it and it fell on the floor with a very loud clatter that obviously frightened him.

Good Luck!

[Poodle wrangler]

If your dog isn't to be bred from and you aren't planning on doing agility, it's a good idea to desex soon, anyway. At 6 months he should be registered with council and here it costs an extra $120 or so for a dog that's not desexed.

If your neighbours did make any complaint against your dog and he's not registered, it will cost you the rego., fine, plus cost of getting him out of pound .

It does sound as if the kids have been teasing him. Can you set up a video camera to tape after kids home from school?

[Vickie]

If it were me, I would keep him away from those kids fullstop. To keep trying to socialise him to them could very well make things worse or end in a bad accident. It certainly does sound like they have been teasing him. Talking to the parents is a great idea.

Are they teh only kids with access to your yard?

I also think getting him desexed asap is a good idea.

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Thanks for all your advice !

Hubby2Be wants to try and set up a video camera to see whats going on when we are not there.

The kids' parents seem the type not to do anything about any issues etc, even after we told the kids to stop throwing things over, something still happened on Monday.

I agree Vickie that things could be made worse by forcing the dog to socialise with the kids.

These kids are the main problem - there are kids on the other side but the house is set a little bit lower down so theres not too much contact there. The kids he has the problem with are in the house opposite our outdoor area (where he is during the day) and the kids are up a bit higher, and climb over the bins etc in their yard, so he can really get a good view from where we are.

We were planning on getting him desexed, but the breeder wants to breed him most probably. Does alot change when they get desexed ?? personality wise ?

What should I say to the parents ?? We have never spoken until this incident happened on Saturday.

[Poodle wrangler]

I'm about to get our second dog desexed. The older one is now 6 and was desexed at about 6 months- no real change in personality. Many people say it helps avoid problems with aggression. No substitute for training of course .

Is your breeder registered? Is your dog on the main register? If not, I wouldn't send him back for breeding. I think it's kinder to desex a pet. A tense, frustrated dog is more likely to have behaviour problems. They don't miss what they've never had when desexed .

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

hi Poodle,

Yes, our breeder is registered and the dog is on the main register under her name - until we decide if we are going to breed him or not. We're not overly fussed either way, but the breeder was wanting to breed him. I have told her about these recent probs with the kids and she said if we need to, we can desex him. She doesn't think though that having him not desexed should be causing these problems.

He has been trying to hump us a bit more lately - maybe he is a little frustrated.

Is 6mths too early to be worrying about that side of life ??

[poodlefan]

Not all humping is sexually motivated. Dogs also hump in an attempt to assert dominance.

Personally I don't think desexing is going to impact on this scenario one way or the other. However, if you aren't planning on breeding him or doing dog sports there's no reason not to.

I'd be keeping him away from those kids. If they're nice as pie to him when you're around and tormenting him otherwise, it's only going to confuse the hell out of him.

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Thats a really good point poodlefan ! Keep him away from them.

Its hard cos we live next door, but my dog is more important to me than those kids so I'm sure we will try our best to keep the situation controlled.

Its up to the kids' parents to control them, we can't do that obviously but we just want to protect Zorro. Might even look at putting up some bamboo or something along the fence - its a shame that their property is higher meaning they can peer down or pop their heads over the fence. Maybe we can make it electrical, the kids would stay away then wouldn't they !!

[Chloes Dad]

Dogs are different on there own property.

we have 4 schnauzers on one side. there is often conflict through the fence yet when they meet on neutral territory down the dog park they are all best mates....

I often notice the kids next door to my place running up and down the fence to taunt Chloe. Then one day I hear a scream from the backyard and the girl has come over to get her ball. Chloe was not being aggressive but she was jumping all over her and nipping. I think she associated this child with excitement and play, due to the through the fence interactions. I now get a knock on the door when the ball comes over :rolleyes:

My guess is that your dog has had similar interactions with these children

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Thanks Choles dad ! There is definately something going on there - whether he thinks the kids are teasing him cos they play with the ball and he can't - or cos they throw things over the fence for him or at him - thats the only options. Hes as good as gold apart from that.

I'm glad the girl doesn't jump the fence anymore to your place - must be nice to not have to worry, & that they now come to the front door !!

Nothing else has happened since the other day - as it has been raining so the kids haven't been out playing. Plus, we have now put up a fence which means Zorro cant get out to run & play along the fence, or to pick up unwanted items in the garden that the kids throw over.

So, all is okay at our camp touch wood !!!

He did though pee in the same spot on the carpet 4 times yesterday.

Each time when OH caught him doing it, he picked him up and took hiim outside.

Then after a little while, cleaned his paws (cos of the rain) let him back in, same spot and same thing happened again - 4 times in total. So then OH took hiim outside & left him there on his bed for an hour or so. Later on after dinner we let him in, and no worries.

They must smell their scent and want to go on that same spot. We've never had a problem with him deliberately peeing in the house before (he has only had about 3 or 4 accidents since we've got him). How do we fix this ?

[Faolmor]

Another thing to consider too...

you said that when he first barked at and nipped the 8 year old, he was on the lead. If he's already frightened of these children, having him on the lead - whilst giving YOU control of him - tells HIM that he can't run away. If he is frightened of those particular children, and then finds himself confronted by them and at the same time unable to flee, his only other option at that time was to warn them that he might have no choice but to defend himself (the barking) and then to defend himself (the nipping).

You said he's fine around other kids at the park...is he on the lead then? Or off-lead? As others have posted also, he is obviously more defensive around his own property, which makes sense, because he needs to protect his "den."

Anyway, just something to think about! Hope it works out well with your dog

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Thanks Faolmor. The breeder did say that is was not a good idea to have him on the lead, and i did some reading about fear agression and it says that he shouldn't be on the lead - exactly what you have said.

When we are at the dog park, he is not on the lead - yet each time we've had the kids over, he has been on the lead.

Thats why we were hoping to see how he is with the kids whilst free in the backyard - but opportunity hasn't come yet - and i'm a bit worried about giving him mixed signals incase the kids are teasing him, its not fair to Zorro.

Will have to remember for the future though to control the situation so nothign can happen, i personally think its something to do with these particular kids, or it could be territorial. I have had another kid (nephew in law) come over to stay and zorro was on the leash when we would enter & exit the property, and there were no problems. Dogs have good memories though & they don't forget !

[Faolmor]

Sounds like you're trying to do the best thing by everyone, especially Zorro Good luck - I hope it works out well for you.

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Absolutely !! He is my #1 concern (no offence t the kids next door - but he is my baby & he comes first!!) I would prefer to have a happy & settled dog, rather than have the kids come over and frighen my pup. I only ever let the kids come to pat him cos I thought it would be good for Zorro to meet some young kids - honestly, I'm happy with the way things were before we started getting visits from the kids. Plus, its better for Zorro too! We know he is safe though now with the fence up as he can't get to anything the kids throw over - like chocolate which could kill him ! Poor little man !!