Obedience - Inconsistency Or Imperfection?

[BittyMooPeeb]

My baby girl did her advanced obedience test today and she got a lower score than some dogs who I thought didnt do as well as she (we) did (insert evil green jealousy emoticon here ). The explanation came in a talk from the judge after the testing, that she gives higher scores to the dogs that do what they are supposed to do, even if it takes owner intervention, than to dogs who are just given the commands they are supposed to get, and occasionally stuff up.

Made me think, as I have always assumed that inconsistency is much better than imperfection. eg I would rather my dog walk with a loose lead and the normal commands for heelwork, and occasionally miss a turn, than having the dog on a tight lead, dragging it around turns, and doing a lot of verbal correction or reminding. Obviously in this particular test it didnt pay off points wise, but what about in the long term? Wouldnt it be better to have - say - great heelwork 90% of the time and the other 10% a disaster, than 100% mediocre heelwork because the dog is getting a lot more cues than is considered acceptable? Or am I on the wrong track ...? My thinking was that it is much easier to increase the frequency of a good performance than it is to fix up a not-so-good performance.

Edited June 3, 2007 by BittyMooPeeb

[Erny]

If a dog needs to be on a tight lead () and dragged around by it in turns for heel, then IMO the dog isn't 'trained' in that skill at all.

[Ms James]

I always thought the goal of heelwork and social walking was a loose lead

I think you got gipped, BittyMooPeeb :D

[dogdude]

My advice is to not worry about it, and dont bother to analize things too much. At the end of the day its just one instructors preference, which will vary from one to another. Just take peace of mind that it can also work both ways, sometimes in your favour.

Today for example I had my Novice test in which I thought was "just ok", the instructor gave us a score of 191!

[Mooper]

You didn't have the instructor that told you she "hates small white fluffies" some time ago, did you?

I can't comment on whether you were unfairly treated, but certainly a dog who is being yanked around and having repeated instructions should lose points accordingly. Jack and I never got beyond Advanced, and our club was a lot more relaxed than yours, but we were only allowed to issue a command once. It sounds as though this particular instructor/assessor was allowing repeated instructions. That shouldn't be necessary at Advanced level.

[leopuppy04]

For me - definately the lesser evil of the two would be Inconsistency - I would much rather my dog be able to 'do' the exercise without assistance rather than being manhandled there (with the owners assistance) - for example - pulled into the proper 'sit' position or held into 'heel' position by a tight lead (as many have said). IMO - the dog is not learning anything other than just waiting for you to put it into the correct position - i'd rather the dog figure it out for themselves, even if it takes a little longer..... coz lets face it - it may take a little longer to teach, but once they have it ingrained, it is there to stay.

Having said that though - I have since learnt the hard way (ie: stuffing up my first dog!) and Inconsistency is still not 'good enough' for me. I'd rather take 4 steps while heeling and have PERFECTION than take 20 steps and have a dog that heels for 5, tunes out for 10 and then comes back in for the last 5 steps. All it is teaching your dog is that you don't *always* have to pay attention to me . I've done this with my younger dog and find that she picks things up quicker (could be the fact that she has more of a brain than my boy) and is far more consistent than Leo was at her age :D.

[Arya]

Bittymoopeeb, I agree with you that a dog dragged around on a tight lead shouldn't score as high as a dog on a loose lead that makes a few errors. But it's so subjective with the judges

I'd stick with your thoughts and keep going the way you are going. As others have said, pulling a dog around teaches it nothing. Your dog has already learnt what's right and just needs to become more consistent with practice. You are on the right track so take comfort from that :D

[BittyMooPeeb]

Having said that though - I have since learnt the hard way (ie: stuffing up my first dog!) and Inconsistency is still not 'good enough' for me. I'd rather take 4 steps while heeling and have PERFECTION than take 20 steps and have a dog that heels for 5, tunes out for 10 and then comes back in for the last 5 steps. All it is teaching your dog is that you don't *always* have to pay attention to me . I've done this with my younger dog and find that she picks things up quicker (could be the fact that she has more of a brain than my boy) and is far more consistent than Leo was at her age .

Hi Leopuppy,

Do you achieve this by increasing the distance in small steps? If so, how do you increase the distance/time? By luring or other sneaky means the first few times, or does the dog just naturally go further/longer once they have the shorter distance/time down pat?

Thanks everyone else for your comments. I'm not worried about different judging styles too much, but am always analysing my training methods, and this test made me question whether I was on the right track. Sounds like I am (as far as DOLers are concerned )

[leopuppy04]

Having said that though - I have since learnt the hard way (ie: stuffing up my first dog!) and Inconsistency is still not 'good enough' for me. I'd rather take 4 steps while heeling and have PERFECTION than take 20 steps and have a dog that heels for 5, tunes out for 10 and then comes back in for the last 5 steps. All it is teaching your dog is that you don't *always* have to pay attention to me . I've done this with my younger dog and find that she picks things up quicker (could be the fact that she has more of a brain than my boy) and is far more consistent than Leo was at her age ;).

Hi Leopuppy,

Do you achieve this by increasing the distance in small steps? If so, how do you increase the distance/time? By luring or other sneaky means the first few times, or does the dog just naturally go further/longer once they have the shorter distance/time down pat?

Thanks everyone else for your comments. I'm not worried about different judging styles too much, but am always analysing my training methods, and this test made me question whether I was on the right track. Sounds like I am (as far as DOLers are concerned ;) )

I have one method that has worked wonders for me. I initially start with not even moving a step off at all. If your dog knows to 'sit' at heel - I would start with my left foot forward a little (helps them stand without having them confused . ). I would then get my dog in the ideal position - ie: right next to my leg, looking at me and focussing. I'd C&T and throw the food to my left. The dog then comes back in to the same position. I'll repeat this until they automatically come into the said position without being guided. Once they have this on board, i'll take 1 step forward before throwing the food away - wait for them to come back then go 2 steps C&T.... 4 steps, 10 steps etc. If they ever loose focus at any point - they get a 'whoopsie' (just a verbal no reward marker) and we go back to say.... 5 steps. I do this until I get up to around 100 steps in a straight line with perfect attention. So yes, I build up duration longer.... The turns i'll teach as a seperate exercise before putting the two together (as well as positions).... say for example, if my dog lost focus at around 50 steps, i'd only go back to 30 - not to the start!!!

Does that make sense?

I do the same for stationary positions - but more of 'successive approximation' - ie: to get the idea that sit means sit - I don't care where they are... but once they are well aware of what 'sit' is and are offering it to me, i'll only reward the better sits, and lure them if required into position.

It has worked really well for me so far

[Lablover]

I have one method that has worked wonders for me. I initially start with not even moving a step off at all. If your dog knows to 'sit' at heel - I would start with my left foot forward a little (helps them stand without having them confused . ). I would then get my dog in the ideal position - ie: right next to my leg, looking at me and focussing. I'd C&T and throw the food to my left. The dog then comes back in to the same position. I'll repeat this until they automatically come into the said position without being guided. Once they have this on board, i'll take 1 step forward before throwing the food away - wait for them to come back then go 2 steps C&T.... 4 steps, 10 steps etc. If they ever loose focus at any point - they get a 'whoopsie' (just a verbal no reward marker) and we go back to say.... 5 steps. I do this until I get up to around 100 steps in a straight line with perfect attention. So yes, I build up duration longer.... The turns i'll teach as a seperate exercise before putting the two together (as well as positions).... say for example, if my dog lost focus at around 50 steps, i'd only go back to 30 - not to the start!!!

Does that make sense?

I do the same for stationary positions - but more of 'successive approximation' - ie: to get the idea that sit means sit - I don't care where they are... but once they are well aware of what 'sit' is and are offering it to me, i'll only reward the better sits, and lure them if required into position.

It has worked really well for me so far

I like your reply. The old ---- unrewarded behaviour will eventually cease, mind set. Hopefully wanted behaviour will take place. It depends........ on us, with our communication/training skills.

I intermittently wonder when I am training my 4 competition dogs, when they are jumping out of their skins barking, PICK ME, pick me, pick me, if they would be willing to do, what I require as much if I had a smaller pack.

One thing I would do, if I had a single dog, would be to play with a reward, and have the dog tied up and watching, or better still have another friends or stranger dogs play. Anticipation and all that.

Dogs are like us, we are like satisfaction.

[leopuppy04]

I intermittently wonder when I am training my 4 competition dogs, when they are jumping out of their skins barking, PICK ME, pick me, pick me, if they would be willing to do, what I require as much if I had a smaller pack.

Do you know - I wonder the same thing - Since i've had my 2nd dog - my older boy has been much more insistent and enthused about training - not that he wasn't before - but now there is COMPETITION !