Tapferhund Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 "if it is done correctly and consistently and the dog fully understands what's going on, I am thinking it probably reinforces in the dog's mind a sense of security in a way, because their leader is a strong leader who will not put up with any mucking around and as such, can provide safety and security in stressful situations. A leader who never offers any sort of consequence for not doing something isn't really a leader at all, are they." Yep ! I would agree with that !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Tangwyn, another fan of your reply. I often wonder due to semantics etc, results in confusing replies. Obviously seeing the dog would certainly help LOL. But really.........all positive. If I was a puppy, warm and comfortable after a fun day and a good meal. Woken up, picked up and taken outside into the cold, to eventually pee or poo, would this be considered positive training? Its all good, having these discussions. Fun too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 6, 2007 Author Share Posted June 6, 2007 Ain't that the truth , IMO having a difficult dog can teach you more than reading 100 books on training can, getting experience with different breeds & different personalities of dogs can give you a very open mind about how to go about solving problems. There is lots of good advice in this thread already, IMO (& without seeing the dog myself) I think you & poodlefan have probably hit the nail on the head, It is you (or rather "was" you, you just didnt realise it) to me it sounds like she has connected you being nervous with the ring & has shut down because of it, is this the dog that you once said had huge issues if you couldnt look at her & have eye contact with her? (forgive me if Im wrong & I have the dogs or people mixed up ) You need to stop her from shutting down, I would be taking her to every trial I could get to & be working along the ring ropes making the work fun - but correct if necessary. And don't forget - baby steps. Good luck with her. Thanks Mrs D ;) Yep, youre right, this is the dog who really really needs to have eye contact with me to feel comfortable. Weird as if someone said that to me, I'd say it was kind of threatening or dominant to a dog and it is to most, but not to her. She needs it from me and I am trying to wean her off it a bit. I definitely am taking her to trials every chance I get and am going to try to make it more fun for her (without disturbing other competitors, of course ). I guess the only thing to do is to keep going, keep trying everything to make it all good for her and sooner or later the penny will drop that it's not so scary after all. Either that or she will end up knowing every judge and steward here in Vic from so many trials so well that she will feel like she's on home turf anyway and relax because of that ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Ayra: You need to stop her from shutting down, I would be taking her to every trial I could get to & be working along the ring ropes making the work fun- but correct if necessary. And don't forget - baby steps. This is why I got into agility.. a wonderful way to build teamwork and confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Arya, Well, if something ain't working, we need as trainers to change tact. Certainly has been true, for my chosen games. Currently I have two dogs in All Age, who require my thinking cap, to be placed once again firmly on my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 What about changing sports for a while? As PF suggested- agility exercises? What ahve your instructors/ people around you who have seen the dog suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Ayra:You need to stop her from shutting down, I would be taking her to every trial I could get to & be working along the ring ropes making the work fun- but correct if necessary. And don't forget - baby steps. This is why I got into agility.. a wonderful way to build teamwork and confidence. Arya - poodlefan's idea is a very good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Thanks Mrs D Yep, youre right, this is the dog who really really needs to have eye contact with me to feel comfortable. Weird as if someone said that to me, I'd say it was kind of threatening or dominant to a dog and it is to most, but not to her. She needs it from me You saying this makes me think even more that its as you said - for her, you are her security, as long as she can look at your face she feels safe & feels that, as the leader you will be able to show her guidance & boundaries that she so obviously needs, when you look away she loses her lifeline & goes to pieces. Have you tried out of sight stays in a group situation with her & if so, what did she do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 What about changing sports for a while? As PF suggested- agility exercises? What ahve your instructors/ people around you who have seen the dog suggested? Actually that is a great idea - and one I never thought of I think that perhaps it will help her re-gain some confidence and if nothing else - help build up great teamwork!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Hi everyone Thanks again:) Mrs D, I have not really tried out of sight stays with her yet, except at home where she does them fine. I have tried long distance stays in familar situations like packing up and putting stuff in the car at our local park while she is sitting quietly in a drop, watching me go back and forth at a distance. These go well. I haven't done any further though as was afraid of pushing her too far and mucking up her usually solid (except in trial ring where she has taken to sitting up or going down) stays. She is trained to UD in everything else but I've never dared push the stays LOL. I am thinking she wouldn't do them outside of the home though. The agility idea - at our small country club we actually do have a really good agility setup and are only missing the see-saw. We sadly only have me and the other regular instructors to help out on it though, nobody really experienced in competing in agility, but I have run Tess through plenty of times and she does LOVE it. I only have not taught her the elevated walkway as worried that my sometimes clumsy with excitement girl would have an accident. So was thinking of doing a low one at home. Weavers she's a bit slow on but does them and is getting better. It certainly is something to consider because she definitely does love it and, with only my training who doesn't have any background in agility at all, I dare to say she is quite good for a beginner with a trainer who has never done agility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Arya, A question if I may, just for clarification. Your dog is nervy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Arya,A question if I may, just for clarification. Your dog is nervy? Yes, she sure is Lablover. I guess it is part of her temperament, genetic I feel looking at her breeding, so will always be there but well hidden now. She has improved out of sight in the last twelve months. Used to exhibit really bad dog aggression, do silly stuff, frightened of her own shadow on one hand and acting really fear aggressive on the other and really submissive to people (luckily!!!). I know it seems obvious, doesn't it. My current prob is just an extension of this. But... if you could see the dog now. Nobody would know what she was like before if they hadn't seen it at the time. She is stable and a great worker everywhere else, be it on the footy ground with footballs flying over her head and big guys jumping about (not kidding, I've trained quite a bit in this situation) to not even turning a hair at starting guns going off at kids sports days. Happy to work anywhere anytime cos she loves it... but in that one place, the trial ring on the actual day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Arya, A question if I may, just for clarification. Your dog is nervy? Yes, she sure is Lablover. I guess it is part of her temperament, genetic I feel looking at her breeding, so will always be there but well hidden now. She has improved out of sight in the last twelve months. Used to exhibit really bad dog aggression, do silly stuff, frightened of her own shadow on one hand and acting really fear aggressive on the other and really submissive to people (luckily!!!). I know it seems obvious, doesn't it. My current prob is just an extension of this. But... if you could see the dog now. Nobody would know what she was like before if they hadn't seen it at the time. She is stable and a great worker everywhere else, be it on the footy ground with footballs flying over her head and big guys jumping about (not kidding, I've trained quite a bit in this situation) to not even turning a hair at starting guns going off at kids sports days. Happy to work anywhere anytime cos she loves it... but in that one place, the trial ring on the actual day. Arya, You have obviously worked very hard, trying to settle her demons. I doubt she will ever be a easy champion of the world obedience dog. Could she be a good competitor? I do not see why not, as you have already achieved somuch with her. How fast does she bounce back after going into avoidance? What do you consider her level of drive? Low, moderate, high? Are you consistently trying to amp her up, at training? Is she fun to train, or a chore? Fun from a level to 0 to 10, 10 being the highest? What is her level of "fun" while you train her 0 to 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Arya, I was talking to my friend about this thread (via email!)... she came up with a few theories. Just wondering - when you go into the ring - do you 'expect' her to misbehave? Do you think 'I wonder how long until she arses off this time??' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Lablover, Arya and I have trained together every week for the past year and I can tell you Arya's girl is quick to pick up on everything she is taught , she loves learning and has a huge range of skills . She knows all the Open and UD exercises WELL ,plus she can do dozens of complex tricks. She works well in our training sessions without distractions and with distractions(people,kids, footballs etc)............hence why it is so frustrating for Arya when she and her dog hit the Trial ring. I am not kidding here but the dog is capable of getting in the high 190's at every trial if we could just work out and rectify what her problem is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Arya, A question if I may, just for clarification. Your dog is nervy? Yes, she sure is Lablover. I guess it is part of her temperament, genetic I feel looking at her breeding, so will always be there but well hidden now. She has improved out of sight in the last twelve months. Used to exhibit really bad dog aggression, do silly stuff, frightened of her own shadow on one hand and acting really fear aggressive on the other and really submissive to people (luckily!!!). I know it seems obvious, doesn't it. My current prob is just an extension of this. But... if you could see the dog now. Nobody would know what she was like before if they hadn't seen it at the time. She is stable and a great worker everywhere else, be it on the footy ground with footballs flying over her head and big guys jumping about (not kidding, I've trained quite a bit in this situation) to not even turning a hair at starting guns going off at kids sports days. Happy to work anywhere anytime cos she loves it... but in that one place, the trial ring on the actual day. Arya, You have obviously worked very hard, trying to settle her demons. I doubt she will ever be a easy champion of the world obedience dog. Could she be a good competitor? I do not see why not, as you have already achieved somuch with her. How fast does she bounce back after going into avoidance? What do you consider her level of drive? Low, moderate, high? Are you consistently trying to amp her up, at training? Is she fun to train, or a chore? Fun from a level to 0 to 10, 10 being the highest? What is her level of "fun" while you train her 0 to 10? Hi Lablover, It's so weird, she bounces back pretty much immediately after going into avoidance. I wouldn't have thought she could but it's like a switch. Side of ring, switch is off, five metres from gate, switch goes on!!! I had her at a big club yesterday though and noticed it appear in the stays. Methinks on the advice of someone with a similar dog who saw it, maximum socialisation is going to be a key to get over this Training... boy, I would retire her except for the fact that she absolutely loves it and it is a true pleasure to work her because of her level of drive and enthusiasm. I'd give her 11 out of 20 for enthusiasm and her level of fun is very very high, whether training or playing in between sessions. She will drag her training bag out and gets antsy if we don't go. Mention training and she jumps about like a loony LOL. I don't have to amp her up very much to train at all. Really, none once she sees that bag But you're right, she'll never be an easy competitor but hopefully a good one eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Arya, I was talking to my friend about this thread (via email!)... she came up with a few theories. Just wondering - when you go into the ring - do you 'expect' her to misbehave? Do you think 'I wonder how long until she arses off this time??' Hi LP Initially I did and I think this has compounded the problem. It's not what I'm doing in the ring now but what I was doing in the ring before and she hasn't forgotten, being the smart girl she is. I did expect her to but now, I just expect to get SOMETHING good during the run through. I hope to see better heeling, or a good stand for exam etc. etc. I guess it's true to say I don't go in there expecting to pass at all, or even do reasonably well at all. Do you think this might be a contributing factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Arya, I was talking to my friend about this thread (via email!)... she came up with a few theories. Just wondering - when you go into the ring - do you 'expect' her to misbehave? Do you think 'I wonder how long until she arses off this time??' Hi LP Initially I did and I think this has compounded the problem. It's not what I'm doing in the ring now but what I was doing in the ring before and she hasn't forgotten, being the smart girl she is. I did expect her to but now, I just expect to get SOMETHING good during the run through. I hope to see better heeling, or a good stand for exam etc. etc. I guess it's true to say I don't go in there expecting to pass at all, or even do reasonably well at all. Do you think this might be a contributing factor? Could be. Said friend had a similar problem with one of her dogs. She said that if she went into the ring thinking the dog *may* stuff around, or 'how long until she switches off this time' the dog invariably would! She said - all that did was confirm in her mind that whenever they went into the ring/ let the dog off at a particular park, it WOULD do it. Do you think you can change your vibes at all now? Positive thinking??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 Sure going to try LP!!! We shall see what happens at next trial... but she's working so well at the moment that surely some of that will come thru on the day. Cross fingers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Ayra, Your training friends and yourself have provided explanations, especially related to training. Another question, sorry.......but what do you do through the week with her, day to day? Maybe further socialisation in new situations may help? Maybe, not doing any obedience training for a while? Has she ever had (training) time off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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