Problem In Trial Ring On The Day Only

[Arya]

I trialled my GSD bitch on the weekend again for a total bomb-out again. This makes nine trials in Novice where we are well prepared, have trained lots around other dogs, trained in ring, even set up ring at home and in different parks etc and played in it to put the dog at ease and yet, each time we step into that trial ring the dog goes to pieces. Really badly. Really. Nothing seems to be working. She is not being naughty. She warms up beautifully at the side of the ring. Get to five metres towards the gate to go in and she starts to look away from me. Her eyes glaze over. Nothing can get her back. Not cajolling. Not trying to switch her into drive with her trigger word. Not a correction with the slip chain. Nothing. In the ring, works like she's not had any training. Even forgets to sit. Stands there sometimes and stares around. In the stays, buggers them up too, dropping etc. When the leads go back on, she desperately tries to pull to the gate to get out. I have had people watch and assure me that it's not me, I look fine. I feel fine. I've given up being nervous after so many times. I just hope for something good during the run through. Lots of displacement behaviour from her like yawning, sniffing the air and ground. Has anyone had this happen and do they have any suggestions on how to get her over it? She isn't getting any better. She is a brilliant worker on any other occasion. But in the ring, she knows I can't talk to her. She has two unknown people in there in the form of judge and steward. She sees other dogs working to either side of her. What do I do? Retire her? Any thoughts much appreciated. It's getting me down

[Echo]

"But in the ring, she knows I can't talk to her. "

Could it be, that although you are training her in different locations, with ring set-ups etc, she is working brilliantly for you in these situations because you are "talking to her" ?

By this I mean that you could be using a lot of extra jargon while training, and your dog relies on/needs this to maintain performance.

Then when you do go into a trial, the "extras" are switched off, and the dog is not able to work well without them.

I have seen this happen with others, and most times the handler is unaware of how much extra chatter they provide their dog in training. It gets them the required response, so they keep it up. When the dog is still learning, the extra chatter is OK, but you must wean your dog off it before you hit the trial ring, and have your dog performing well with just the tools you may use when trialling.

Just a thought.

Good luck with your training.

Julie

[shoemonster]

Have you set up a ring at your club with people she doesnt know being judge and steward? Maybe try to replicate a trial as close as you possibly can (judge, steward, no talking, etc) and see what happens, then you will know for sure if it is her or maybe some subtle vibe you are giving off. If you know its not a real trial you technically be different in your mind, and it might only be subtle, but if she switches off you will know it is something about the ring, or people or environment of a trial

Hope that makes sense

[sas]

She sounds unsure to me because you're not giving her the verbal ok, she doesn't know if she's doing ok or not.

Have you practised staying quiet in practice?

[JulesP]

You could see if it is the talking by talking during a trial! Explain to the judge what is going on and use it as a practise. If your girl works well then you know that is the problem. If nothing it might do her good to have a happy experience in the ring with lots of pats etc.

My girl didn't like me not talking in a trial. She looked really worried. I just reduced that amount of talking in training.

[Arya]

Thanks everyone I have tried not talking and had success. She works better if I talk but still fine if I don't. She knows the routine like the back of her paw LOL. However... it maybe would help if I got more people she didn't know to give us a mock run-through. I could try this. The other thing I've even thought of trying is seeing if I could get a friend she knows to actually handle her for me in the ring. If she worked for them maybe it is an issue with me? It would be awful in one way to see her work for someone else in that situation when she won't work for me in the ring, but at least it would help show where the problem lies. The quiet in training I could try even more, I guess. I could make it all quiet except for commands every time in training, with every single thing she knows and rely more on body language. Hmmm. Lots to think about...

[dogdude]

It could also be a combination of problems. From what I have seen of her, she didn't seem to show any resentment towards the judge or Steward during the FOO run throughs, but it could also be a loss of drive.

When Ness is working in the switch "on" position, she is truly wonderfull to watch.

I know you have done some work with food drive, would using it, rather than prey drive work better for you guys?

Are all of the other "prey" distractions at the trial her reward in lew of the restrictions that are placed on your normal reward system, being at the trial?

In your training, do you reward her at the end of the session, or end of exercise?

Certainly a frustrating problem, but no more talk of throwing in the towel :D :D

She's a lovely dog with far too much potential to cheer you up with once you get over the problem!!

P.S: I can't remember her age?

[leopuppy04]

DONT throw the towel in !!!!

I've seen her work as well and I really can't put my finger on it! It is such a quick change-over.

A few questions though....

*In training - do you have the food on you or in a bag? If it is in the bag, to you take that bag outside the ring? Can you send her to the bag using a command ("where's the biccies etc")??

*When you trained at FOO was it around people that she knew/ didn't know?

*Are you willing to throw away MORE money and explain to the judges what you are doing BEFORE you go in and talk to your dog/ razz her up and throw away the pass (acutally don't know if you can do this)?

*When you train at home, do you have someone else calling out turns etc?

I have a few thoughts that she thinks in *this* particular set up there will be NO rewards for me, so I would set it up where she *expects* the rewards outside.

*Keep up the training FOO style/ with other dogs in trial rings and strange judges etc.

*even set it up at a trial to the point where you can reward really good heeling - leave the ring and then end on a MAJOR high.

*record turns on tape as this can throw your 'pattern' of walking out so thereby making it more 'unpredictable'.

*I also don't think correcting her will help - she shows 'displacement' - I don't want to be here behaviours and I think that correcting will only make it worse for her - she is already stressed enough that I think, particularly if she is stressed about dogs/ people, she needs to know that YOU are the safeguard and no harm will come - so just get on with the job :D!

I am sure you have done all of these, but thought i'd put them out in the open 'just incase'!

[Arya]

DONT throw the towel in !!!!

Thanks for the kind words LP!!! :D Here's my answers:

I've seen her work as well and I really can't put my finger on it! It is such a quick change-over.

A few questions though....

*In training - do you have the food on you or in a bag? If it is in the bag, to you take that bag outside the ring? Can you send her to the bag using a command ("where's the biccies etc")??

She has a target bag (didn't bring it out this time but usually do). In training she knows it is the home of all good stuff. I just say 'back to your bag' and she races out of the ring to it. In trials, she couldn't care less where it is though.

*When you trained at FOO was it around people that she knew/ didn't know?

She knew the lady who put us through the ring each week as it was generally the same person and she knew others there. It was the same setup at the same time each week and kind of familiar.

*Are you willing to throw away MORE money and explain to the judges what you are doing BEFORE you go in and talk to your dog/ razz her up and throw away the pass (acutally don't know if you can do this)? You probably can't but when she's blown it I will often just start to talk to her and try to bring her up to me anyway so not a total failure, but she is gone mentally by then and doesn't even listen to me. If I could touch her it might make adifference but not being able to is hard. Perhaps I should just throw in a grab by the collar to bring her close to my leg and back into the 'safe zone' so to speak if she has already blown it.

*When you train at home, do you have someone else calling out turns etc?

Yep, but of course it is people who she knows. I was thinking about this this morning. Would be great if I could just grab someone at the footy ground and ask them to read off a run through from a bit of paper for me. As the players see me down there a lot they may well help :D

I have a few thoughts that she thinks in *this* particular set up there will be NO rewards for me, so I would set it up where she *expects* the rewards outside.

*Keep up the training FOO style/ with other dogs in trial rings and strange judges etc.

*even set it up at a trial to the point where you can reward really good heeling - leave the ring and then end on a MAJOR high.

*record turns on tape as this can throw your 'pattern' of walking out so thereby making it more 'unpredictable'. Good idea! I'll try this out

*I also don't think correcting her will help - she shows 'displacement' - I don't want to be here behaviours and I think that correcting will only make it worse for her - she is already stressed enough that I think, particularly if she is stressed about dogs/ people, she needs to know that YOU are the safeguard and no harm will come - so just get on with the job ! I agree totally. It's all very well the person at trial telling me to correct the living daylights out of her but Tess is a soft dog. I am not about to blow her trust in me. She isn't being naughty anyway and even if she was, you want the dog to *want* to work for you, not do it because they have to or they cop it!

I am sure you have done all of these, but thought i'd put them out in the open 'just incase'!

A part of me just feels like giving up but on the other hand, I know there's a good run through in Tess somewhere, just waiting to come out LOL.

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes

[Arya]

Hmmm, LP, I mucked the above post up and all my replies are in the quote Thanks again!

[Arya]

It could also be a combination of problems. From what I have seen of her, she didn't seem to show any resentment towards the judge or Steward during the FOO run throughs, but it could also be a loss of drive.

is wWhen Ness orking in the switch "on" position, she is truly wonderfull to watch.

I know you have done some work with food drive, would using it, rather than prey drive work better for you guys?

Are all of the other "prey" distractions at the trial her reward in lew of the restrictions that are placed on your normal reward system, being at the trial?

In your training, do you reward her at the end of the session, or end of exercise?

Certainly a frustrating problem, but no more talk of throwing in the towel :D :D

She's a lovely dog with far too much potential to cheer you up with once you get over the problem!!

P.S: I can't remember her age?

Let's see if I can get this reply working better Dogdude!

wWhen Ness orking in the switch "on" position, she is truly wonderfull to watch.

Thank you! This is why I persist. She is so fantastic to work with every other time

Are all of the other "prey" distractions at the trial her reward in lew of the restrictions that are placed on your normal reward system, being at the trial?

I wonder about this. She looks across at other dogs running and doing stuff in other rings. It could be the case...

it could also be a loss of drive.

Drive disappears totally. It is weird. I can trigger it with a word everywhere else, every other time. But the fear is too much. There really is a demarkation line about five metres from the gate. Step back to the corner of the ring, or to the side of the ring and all is fine.

In your training, do you reward her at the end of the session, or end of exercise?

Both. I mix it up. I will reward her sometimes in the middle of a heeling pattern, or at the end of a whole run through, or at all sorts of different times so she never knows when it is coming. But she can wait and stay in drive for a whole run through. She has actually improved a lot with that lately. She knows the reward will come at some point from somewhere, be it from me or her target bag. And, in training, particularly with heeling, I am pretty sure that some of it is self-rewarding. Fast heeling at a run around an oval with total focus on me produces high drive and lovely work that she just wants to keep on doing. Like a runner pumping endorphins in a race I suppose.

She's a lovely dog with far too much potential to cheer you up with once you get over the problem!!

Thank you Hopefully this is just a bad phase she will pass through once I find the key to solving the problem!

[Tapferhund]

Hi ARYA,

*you want the dog to *want* to work for you, not do it because they have to or they cop it!*

Actually, it should be both ! Yes we definately want the dog to "want" to work, but at the same time the dog should have in the back of it's mind, "I have to work or else ........!!"

If you compare what OUR Trialing dogs are expected to do in obedience trial exercises ...to say ...the type of work/exercises of a real working dog, Herder,Assistance dog,Security,Police or Armed Forces etc, what our dogs have to do is basically NOTHING .....it's easy........and yet NOT many PASS do they? Could you imagine what would happen if a Police Dog or an Assistance dog...or a Herding dog stuffed up and didn't do what it has been trained to do?

There has to be a reason for this and IMO it is because most obedience trialers do not teach their dog/s that there are consequences for not working. Many tend to teach and train their dog/s the exercises required ,but then stuff up in the proofing of them in these exercises. They might proof by training their dog/s in different areas and situations,but don't tend to add to the dogs mind ,as part of the proofing , that there ARE now consequences for NOT "doing as you were told or asked."

Another part of the problem (IMO) are the Judges and the Trials (rules) as THEY won't allow for correction of a dog for misbehaviour in the ring......and dogs being as smart as they are, SOON learn what they can get away with , what they don't have to do , when in a ring situation.

You should be allowed to give a light correction to the dog when it is needed so as the dog realizes it MUST work in that (trial) situation too!

[Lablover]

Hi ARYA,

*you want the dog to *want* to work for you, not do it because they have to or they cop it!*

Actually, it should be both ! Yes we definately want the dog to "want" to work, but at the same time the dog should have in the back of it's mind, "I have to work or else ........!!"

If you compare what OUR Trialing dogs are expected to do in obedience trial exercises ...to say ...the type of work/exercises of a real working dog, Herder,Assistance dog,Security,Police or Armed Forces etc, what our dogs have to do is basically NOTHING .....it's easy........and yet NOT many PASS do they? Could you imagine what would happen if a Police Dog or an Assistance dog...or a Herding dog stuffed up and didn't do what it has been trained to do?

There has to be a reason for this and IMO it is because most obedience trialers do not teach their dog/s that there are consequences for not working. Many tend to teach and train their dog/s the exercises required ,but then stuff up in the proofing of them in these exercises. They might proof by training their dog/s in different areas and situations,but don't tend to add to the dogs mind ,as part of the proofing , that there ARE now consequences for NOT "doing as you were told or asked."

Another part of the problem (IMO) are the Judges and the Trials (rules) as THEY won't allow for correction of a dog for misbehaviour in the ring......and dogs being as smart as they are, SOON learn what they can get away with , what they don't have to do , when in a ring situation.

You should be allowed to give a light correction to the dog when it is needed so as the dog realizes it MUST work in that (trial) situation too!

Yet another reply which has me nodding my head.

That being said, Ayra, unfortunately bad habits - being ring smart, can be difficult to change. Obviously your dog shuts down, starting 5 metres (was that the distance you mentioned?), from the ring.

What training methods do you use? Corrections?

Have you had a friend video you in the ring and at training, to compare? Do you become nervous? Dogs can smell fear/nerves.

[Tangwyn]

*I also don't think correcting her will help - she shows 'displacement' - I don't want to be here behaviours and I think that correcting will only make it worse for her - she is already stressed enough that I think, particularly if she is stressed about dogs/ people, she needs to know that YOU are the safeguard and no harm will come - so just get on with the job :D!

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with this. Some of the most "shut-down", miserable looking dogs I have seen in a trial ring are purely positive trained. Correcting a dog for a behaviour it understands provides it with clear boundaries and, I believe, clear boundaries make happy dogs.

Also, if a dog is exhibiting behaviours indicating stress or shut down giving the dog praise, toys or treats can only serve to re-inforce the behaviour. It only takes once or twice and there you go - conditioned behaviour. To me, your dog must be getting some form of reward or reinforcement for the behaviour it is currently exhibiting in the ring. Perhaps this is simply the fact that initially you tried to "gee her up" with a toy or food (reward for unacceptable behaviour) and now it is perpetuated by the the lack of correction or other disincentives.

JMHO

[leopuppy04]

*I also don't think correcting her will help - she shows 'displacement' - I don't want to be here behaviours and I think that correcting will only make it worse for her - she is already stressed enough that I think, particularly if she is stressed about dogs/ people, she needs to know that YOU are the safeguard and no harm will come - so just get on with the job :D!

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with this. Some of the most "shut-down", miserable looking dogs I have seen in a trial ring are purely positive trained. Correcting a dog for a behaviour it understands provides it with clear boundaries and, I believe, clear boundaries make happy dogs.

Also, if a dog is exhibiting behaviours indicating stress or shut down giving the dog praise, toys or treats can only serve to re-inforce the behaviour. It only takes once or twice and there you go - conditioned behaviour. To me, your dog must be getting some form of reward or reinforcement for the behaviour it is currently exhibiting in the ring. Perhaps this is simply the fact that initially you tried to "gee her up" with a toy or food (reward for unacceptable behaviour) and now it is perpetuated by the the lack of correction or other disincentives.

JMHO :D

Interesting that so many people are against not correcting a dog

Firstly - I said that for this particular dog I do not think that correcting her will work - as I have seen both Arya and Tess work. I don't think correcting is the issue. I am not saying to never correct a dog. I also don't know what the issue with 'positively trained' dogs are.... any dog trained by whatever method can be a good dog - it is all about timing, and the appropriateness of the reward/correction. My dogs never shut down and are always asking for more work....

IMHO - every time a dog has exhibited stress the way Tess does, correcting the behaviour DOES make the matter worse. Of course this all depends on the individual dog, but I believe it to be the case *in this instance*.

My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there

JMHO.

Edited June 4, 2007 by leopuppy04

[luvworkingdogs]

Hi Arya,

there is a really good section on the "ringwise" dog in Karen Pryor's book called Clicker Training for Obedience.

[Tangwyn]

My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there

LP,

I take it, then, that you score close to 200 in obedience trials?

I do concede that I haven't personally seen Tess in action so any comments I make are, obviously, subject to amendment by her owner/trainer to suit her particular circumstance. Given the fact that you are very familiar with the dog and the training technique used - hopefully the advice you have given will be to good effect and we'll see Tess blitz the trial next time.

Cheers

T.

[ness]

Tangwyn dogs capabilities to score 200 are only as good as the trainer (or in fact the willingness of the judge in some respects). I am sure there are a substantial number of WA dogs who have never experienced a correction for trial work in there life yet would score 190+ on a regular basis in the ring.

Not sure what you are infering to leopuppy but I post this merely to say it can be done.

ETA Leopuppy has done very well in the ring with Leo who is her first trialling dog.

Edited June 4, 2007 by ness

[Tapferhund]

"dogs who have never experienced a correction for trial work in there life yet would score 190+ on a regular basis in the ring."

Ness, each breed is different each dog is different ......yes , many never need to be corrected but there are a hellava lot that do ,including the odd BC such as you obviously have.

I have never owned a BC, but I do have Aussies as well as my GSD's and BOTH BC's and Aussies temperaments/characters are very different to German Shepherds.

"My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there "

Leopuppy, when you have owned,trained and trialed many dogs of other breeds with different and varying temperaments and characters, then I wonder if you will still say the same?...I would say not !

Aussies are a totally different kettle of fish to GSD's.....Aussies are a soft so easy to train always ready to comply breed......whereas, depending on the dog, GSD's can be a multitude of things , mostly they too can be as easy as an Aussie to train -always ready to comply,calm and self assured as they are supposed to be ,but there are also many dogs who are stubborn ,hard, strong, nervy, noisy , some can even suffer with ADHT , they can be dependant , independant ,easy to train,hard to train, high drive, low drive, no drive................totally different to your dogs your breed.

[leopuppy04]

My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there

LP,

I take it, then, that you score close to 200 in obedience trials?

Don't see what this has to do with whether or not your dog gets a correction. I am a novice trainer - i've been trialling for under 12 mths so hardly see myself as the expert . Many of the top dogs I have watched have been positively trained. My dog has not received 200 in any trial - but I don't think that is from lack of correction, even if it were present we wouldn't get it. There is just too many areas where you can loose points - add my nerves onto that and it is incredibly hard. I will say that every judge I have been under has commended me on my work with Leo, which is no mean feat for a first trialling dog.

Tapferhund - yes I said my 'aussies' have never had a proper correction in their life. Likewise, I know that they are a different working style to GSD's in the like - very able and willing dogs and the aussies are so ready to do anything for you. My two are particularly soft, I don't deny that. So, in their case, a correction will ruin them IMO, as it will affect the basis of what our training has been built up on. Having said that - I am not saying that the next dog I train will never get corrected..... but I am almost certain that whatever breed I get, will only have to be minimally so. I correct for manners.... I don't correct for training in terms of say... a check chain. That is the way I train, no matter what breed I have.. I am not saying I won't use it, but I will exhaust all other measures. I'd also like to add that I have come across GSD's and like breeds that have been positive trained from the start and in all honesty, there is no difference in their consistency or work ethic when compared to a traditionally trained dog.

You can agree or not - but I stand by the advice I gave to Arya and I am NEVER going to change my training techniques for any other reason than doing so for the dogs benefit......