Disobedience

[leopuppy04]

Something I've been thinking about lately.

What do you consider to be disobedience?

Do you think that it could possibly be just something that you haven't taught thoroughly enough/ in that context or is the dog honestly being defiant?

Then comes the next question - we say that our dogs can't feel love, jealousy etc,etc.... and that they don't act out of spite - so what would make them want to be 'disobedient' just 'because'....

For example - 'my' dog "(hypothetical) *knows* sit - I can call out sit/ signal sit etc,etc and he will..... I call out sit when he is running - he will...... but if I call out sit and my back is turned he wont - is that disobedience, or just not understanding the context?

If a dog sees a bird and runs full pelt afterward - you call him and he doesn't come - is that disobedience or an actual fact that he *didn't* hear you because he is now in full prey drive?

I am just curious as I don't know whether or not our dogs are actually 'disobedient' or whether it is just a lack of training on our part.

And a classic - which the jury is still out for me - you call the dog - they turn around, look at you and run off again - is that being disobedient, or is the dog merely 'checking in' saying 'you called, yes I heard you - back in 5'.......

[squeak]

Something I've been thinking about lately.

For example - 'my' dog "(hypothetical) *knows* sit - I can call out sit/ signal sit etc,etc and he will..... I call out sit when he is running - he will...... but if I call out sit and my back is turned he wont - is that disobedience, or just not understanding the context?

I'll only answer this part. To me this would be that you haven't taught/proofed for that particular command in that particular situation. My understanding is that dogs generalise very poorly, and to me this would be a new situation to a dog that has only ever had the sit command taught/reinforced/proofed with a person facing them. Time to teach the dog that sit means sit, no matter what your body position. JMHO.

[JulesP]

If the dog knows the exercise and always performs i.e. drop and then will not drop because the grass is wet then I would call that disobedience. That is assuming the handler has given the correct signal.

Same with not returning to a recall. The dog has decided that it profits more from running off!

If the dog didn't drop because your back was turned then that would suggest that it is relying on visual clues more than verbal clues. I tested my old dog on this one!!

Animals do push the boundaries of what they can get away with! Don't think they see if as being disobedient like we do. They do it to each other so I can't see why they wouldn't do it to us.

If Brock does something wrong then I always question my signal etc first before deciding that he has chosen to not do what I ask.

[leopuppy04]

If the dog knows the exercise and always performs i.e. drop and then will not drop because the grass is wet then I would call that disobedience. That is assuming the handler has given the correct signal.

Same with not returning to a recall. The dog has decided that it profits more from running off!

Or is it just that we have not set our dogs up in this situation before??? LOL - if we have been asking a dog to 'drop' and especially now, during a drought they have never come across wet grass before, you can bet you will have some that won't do it - but I wouldn't classify that as disobedience in my book .

If the dog didn't drop because your back was turned then that would suggest that it is relying on visual clues more than verbal clues. I tested my old dog on this one!!

But what if you can ask your dog to 'sit' only verbally everywhere else except with your back turned..... I agree with squeak on this one .

Animals do push the boundaries of what they can get away with! Don't think they see if as being disobedient like we do. They do it to each other so I can't see why they wouldn't do it to us.

Push the boundaries - definately - but what actually equates disobedience? We are taught (or at least I am) to let our dogs 'experiment' and try new things - sometimes this works for us and against us.... are we then allowed to 'punish' the dog for 'disobeying' when they are simply 'trying something new'..... I think this comes down to each personal opinion.

But the more I think about it - almost every error that has been made by my dogs has been done by myself - I have been in a bad mood (sometimes without even realising!), tired, signaled wrong.... a whole variety of things. Lets face it - as humans we are bad communicators.... I am starting to feel that the dogs are not 'disobedient' but rather we are simply 'inconsistent'.... I had this discussion a short while ago as Leo was being a real git one day in training - my friend and I then came to the conclusion that Leo could possibly be picking up on hormones - I had my 'little friend' a few days later...... she said her dogs always 'know' when it's that time and their training attitude changes !

Lately I have been more and more 'skeptical' about 'disobedience'.... the only time Leo has been really disobedient has come to bite me in the bum!

I am fascinated to hear everyone elses responses though :D

Edited May 28, 2007 by leopuppy04

[JulesP]

A wet grass example - lots of doggies didn't want to drop in the wet grass the other week. Doggies knew drop. Doggy was happy to drop in the wet grass after class when we were chatting! So I believe doggy was being disobedient! It knew drop it just didn't want to. The owner had been proofing it to wet grass in the week too!

Turning your back and asking for a command is an old method of testing that the verbal cues are in place.

It is up to the handler to work out if the dog is offering something and giving it a try rather than being disobedient. Also to work out if they are doing something wrong. In my practice stand for exam the other week Brock moved alot but that was because I was nervous and giving silly commands! i didn't tell him off at all because it was totally my fault.

Brock was disobedient tonight! (he rarely is! ) He didn't want to wait for his dinner because I was really late home and he was starving! He knows the command 'wait' but he chose to break it. Scoffing his dinner was more appealing at that moment then doing what I said.

[leopuppy04]

A wet grass example - lots of doggies didn't want to drop in the wet grass the other week. Doggies knew drop. Doggy was happy to drop in the wet grass after class when we were chatting! So I believe doggy was being disobedient! It knew drop it just didn't want to. The owner had been proofing it to wet grass in the week too!

Another question then - in your eyes - what is this handler like? Is she consistent? Is this dog normally disobedient or was it something just 'out of the blue'?

Turning your back and asking for a command is an old method of testing that the verbal cues are in place.

True - but it is also testing how well your dog generalises IMO :D

It is up to the handler to work out if the dog is offering something and giving it a try rather than being disobedient.

Very true :D. I'll give you a scenario - you are doing the same thing every week - no changest in body language etc.... but your dog WILL NOT hold a sit stay -is it being disobedient or is it something else? ETA - the dog has been proofed in all areas and *knows* very well what a sit stay is

So what do you think makes a dog disobedient? Surely, if they can't join events and act out of spite - what is making them think 'i'm not going to do what you say'???

[ness]

Not disobedient - just having an off day. I mean everybody (human or dog) makes mistakes even with things they know really really well. Half the fun is that they aren't robots isnt it.

[leopuppy04]

Not disobedient - just having an off day. I mean everybody (human or dog) makes mistakes even with things they know really really well. Half the fun is that they aren't robots isnt it.

This is why I have trouble with this 'disobedience'..... everything else we can pretty much blame on ourself....

*the dog is not understanding coz we are not communicating properly/ timing is off

*dog is not motivated because WE haven't found what motivates it the most

*the dog does the wrong obstacle in agility because OUR body language was pointing them that way....

yet if we say 'sit' and the dog doesn't.... we immediately jump to the dog being disobedient.... this is where my mother has trouble understanding as well.... she always says - if the dog is not smart enough to remember that they dug THAT hole 5 hrs ago, how can you then say that they KNOW to be disobedient.......

ETA - i'm not saying that all dogs are perfect - some dogs DO push boundaries..... but is it out of disobedience/ eagerness to work or something they have 'inadvertently' learnt along the way??

Edited May 29, 2007 by leopuppy04

[ness]

Some would say Ness's lack of positions during her heelwork on the trial at the weekend was disobedience. I prefer to think of it as we have spent so much time focussing on getting enthusiastic heelwork now we need to go back and concentrate on positions. Yes she knows them and it wasn't due to a lack of attention but she was doing all that she thought she needed to do. Maybe I wasn't doing something quite the same as I do in training or maybe its been a while since we have worked positions.

So yep we would have finished up with a 174 N/Q if we had done stays (which I hadn't because she wasn't passing). She only lost 6 marks for the rest of her open exercises and worked the round of her life.

I don't think that is disobedience. Her eyes didn't leave mine for the entire round - including between exercises.

Never mind life goes on and there is always the next trial.

If anybody is interested in watching the videos from the trial I have posted them all up at youtube.

Edited May 29, 2007 by ness

[JulesP]

They don't think "gee I am going to be disobedient" Disobedient is a word that we use to explain what is going on. They might be thinking that they should be elevated in the pack, or that doing what we want doesn't profit them enough to do it.

The wet grass dog is IMO challenging her owner, who is a good handler. But the dog is not desexed and is at the age were she is thinking about elevating herself in the pack. Not out of spite just the out of nature to constantly challenge the pack position.

[dogdude]

Basically, I qualify disobedience as things like, drive overtaking the dogs choice to complete a commanded task.

I dont think that disobedience is always a bi-pproduct of poor training. Things like prey and self preservation drives and others are often going to overtake drive modes in the dogs mind, no matter how well proofed IMO.

I think of disobedience in that context, and train with it in mind.

[Vickie]

Yes, I believe it is possible for dogs to be disobedient.

The definition of disobedient: Refusing or failing to obey.

Seems to describe just about every dog I know at some point & in some context.

I think there are are a thousand possible reasons for & examples of disobedience.

I think dogs are opportunists, they are obedient if it is worth their while, but do agree that some dogs are naturally more obedient or disobedient than others.

[leopuppy04]

OK - so for Vickie's definition - yep - then i'd definately agree - dog will refuse/ won't obey at times :D. However - many a time my dog has been 'disobedient' because I mis-communicated..... say for example - missing a drop in heelwork coz my signal was too quick .

There are definately some that are more/ less obedient than others....

I guess my 'resistance' comes up as I often hear trainers telling handlers that 'their dog is taking them for a ride' etc. etc.... in some cases I do agree... I hear a lot of people who's dog hasn't dropped and thus, they then must 'correct'..... I have done that before - then sat back and relised the dog wasnt being naughty at all.... just confused.

The only problem I have with 'disobedience' is when we make it look like the dog had a 'pre-concieved' thought of being naughty .

Just how strong is the 'pack structure'... I know that all dogs will go through a stage where they will 'test' the waters - but again - the jury is out with me as to whether or not they are really trying to elevate themselves.... or just seeing if the reward is 'enough' for them to continue to do what we ask.... if we dont' persue - IMO there will be some dogs that won't continue to elevate themselves above you, they just won't do their 'training' anymore....

LOL - fascinating, but confusing coz I'm finding it hard to write what i'm thinking :D

[Vickie]

I don't think it needs to be that complicated.

Example. My husband looks at Trim & says come, to take her outside. 50% of the time she just stares at him without moving & the other 50%, she looks at me to see if she has to go out.

She is an obedient dog & she certainly knows what come means...but in this context that is disobedience. Just because there is a reason for it, it doesn't make it less disobedient. There is nothing preconceived about it and I don't think she is trying to elevate her position. Quite simply, she just knows that if she waits him out, he will give up & leave her inside. Is she taking him for a ride? Probably. It is still disobedient.

BTW, she will obey this command if it is given by both my 8YO & 3YO.

[JulesP]

LOL sounds like OH is below her in the pack!

I think if you just accept 'disobedience' as natual doggy behaviour then you don't take it as personally! It doesn't bother me at all because I am not thinking that they are delibrately trying to annoy me.

[leopuppy04]

LOL - nah - disobedience doesn't bother me - i'm just trying to see if people think there is an 'underlying' reason for it, or whether WE are the cause of the 'disobedience' :D

The only time it bothers me is when people conceive a confused dog as 'disobedient' and correct it until the dog is too scared to do anything and is in an utter confused state :D

[dogdude]

Yes, but "thats dog training"! We were all newbys at one time, I'm sure that every handler would love to rewind the clock to their first dog! :D

[Cosmolo]

I agree with Vickie. LP- i think your over complicating it a little. And as much as human handling and training should come under scrutiny as well, simple mistakes are not always the fault of the trainer/ handler. I think we have very different perspectives on this- you say the dog 'missed a drop during heel because the signal was too quick'. I say- why wasn't the dog paying enough attention to pick up a quick signal?

So, no i don't believe that we are the cause of ALL disobedience. I understand what you are saying in terms of a dog being corrected for disobedience when it is in fact confused etc but i also see the results of the other extreme where people are told that the dog is confused or doesn't know the exercise when they clearly do.

Its not just about giving the correction in the example that you mention- its how the dog responds to the correction that can assist in determining whether the dog was confused or knew what they should have done and didn't do it- which to me constitutes disobedience. How do you make things clear for a dog so that the confusion disapates- i show them what response will get what consequence and believe it or not, at times corrections can ease confusion not add to it.

There are many reasons and explanations for disobedience- few of which i believe are acceptable. Dog ignored a recall to chase a rabbit- understandable, yes? Acceptable because there is a reason? No.

[leopuppy04]

And as much as human handling and training should come under scrutiny as well, simple mistakes are not always the fault of the trainer/ handler. I think we have very different perspectives on this- you say the dog 'missed a drop during heel because the signal was too quick'. I say- why wasn't the dog paying enough attention to pick up a quick signal?

True - mistakes aren't always our fault.... but in terms of a drop - sometimes the signals are too quick/ too short etc,etc and it is not from lack of attention ..... For example - when I was training K. a few months ago - I gave her a drop signal and she didn't respond- it wasnt' for lack of attention and here I was thinking she was just a stubborn little ass.... but i'd never given her a 'shortened' drop signal before - always one to the ground..... so IMO, that one wasn't disobedience at all..... does that make any sense?

Its not just about giving the correction in the example that you mention- its how the dog responds to the correction that can assist in determining whether the dog was confused or knew what they should have done and didn't do it- which to me constitutes disobedience.

What do you mean here - that you will give a correction to see if the dog really was confused or just disobedient??? How will you determine?

How do you make things clear for a dog so that the confusion disapates- i show them what response will get what consequence and believe it or not, at times corrections can ease confusion not add to it.

Yes - I agree with you here also (why is it that you can word things soo much better than me !)... The correction can help clear up confusion - whatever the correction may be....

There are many reasons and explanations for disobedience- few of which i believe are acceptable. Dog ignored a recall to chase a rabbit- understandable, yes? Acceptable because there is a reason? No.

ETA: What do you define as an ignored recall?? For example - if a dog is in prey drive - do you believe that they don't hear you?

Don't you hate it when something slips your mind! I had a question I wanted to ask you, but do you think I can remember!!!

How do you yourself determine whether or not the dog is confused/ disobedient then? Furthermore - how do you determine when a dog *knows* an exercise?

Just to clarify - i'm not an airy fairy trainer that thinks her dogs can do no wrong ..... dogs can be naughty and test the waters etc... and I will 'correct' appropriately - yet if they make the mistake more than twice, i'll begin to think they are not being 'disobedient'..... I'm just thinking that many people think their dog is 'disobedient' or naughty too soon, before trying to see why the dog may have misbehaved.... if that makes any sense....

Also - I still don't think that the dog 'plans' on being disobedient - which is where I guess my main want of discussion stemmed from - I don't think a dog stands there and thinks 'i'm gonna show her.... there is NO WAY i'm going to do that"..... but I do think that a dog will be disobedient along the lines of "soo.... what happens if I don't do it... "

Edited May 29, 2007 by leopuppy04

[JulesP]

Lol Leo maybe you are talking to the already converted here??? I doubt that too many of us on here would just think the dog was being a shit deliberately and give it a biffo!