Bow Wow Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Hypothetical question. Dogs in sit stay or down stay group in trial. One dog comes up to your dog and sniffs, your dog is a bit dog aggressive and does not like his/her personal space invaded and a fight breaks out. What are the consequences?? This has not happened. But is my worst nightmare and the reason I can not let myself go into trialling. Bindi is a staffy x, she is 3 years old, was heavily socialised as a pup and has done obedience since she was 18 weeks. At around the age of 18 months, my friendly girl, started to snap at ' some ' dogs. She has never been in a fight. Has been bitten on the nose by a dally when she was younger. My fear is if she ever bit a dog she would get put down. :D She is my baby and this thought terrifies me. Bindi is very clever. The instructors are always telling me to trial her. But my fear stops me from doing so. She has been in two mock trials. Coming 2nd with a score of 96 in her first. Then today she came 1st with 85. Opinions greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Your hypothetical question is interesting BW, its something I've thought about a lot, more for the reason that I wonder if I can protect my dog if another dog gets up from a stay and tries to have a go at her. Recently there was a dog fight in stays at a trial, dog 1 got in dog 2's face, D2 quite obviously tried to avoid the dominance display of D1 but it ended up in a dogfight. I know there was an official meeting afterwards but don't know what the results of that were, but it would only be a decision as to the dogs future participation in trials. I wouldn't think the VCA could dictate any more than this. FWIW I asked one of the competitors if they were given instructions at the start of the stays as to what to do if a dog breaks.. scarily they were given none. No attempt was made to remove D1 until it disintegrated into a fight. :p It really worries me that quite a few judges talk about the dog coming back to you, but deal with a dog interfering with another on a "deal with it when it happens" basis Sorry I can't be of more assistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Bow wow - what you asked just happened at the last trial I was at!!!!!! It is a big reason why I really truly think that unless you are 100% certain that your dog is stable on exercises (sure, they make mistakes, but at least you know they can do them consistently in training) you shouldn't enter a trial. Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't expect the dog to be perfect, what with your nerves, general mistakes etc,etc.... but i'd expect your dog to be able to perform the exercises with distractions and do the exercises fairly reliably. What happened is exactly what you describe..... one dog got up to sniff another and there was a full blown fight in the middle of the stays. ALL dogs got involved.... if my dog was in there, I am almost positive our trialling career will be over as both of them are fairly soft dogs and the stays are stressful for them - dogs will stare at each other etc,etc. The consequences if this happens will not be that your dog be put down, but you will get reported and you may not be able to enter another VCA (or ANKC affiliate) for a while (or ever, depending on the offense). My suggestion is to proof your dog to the worst. Set your dog up so that other dogs (that are neutral and won't aggress to your dog) may walk over it (with their handler), walk right under your dogs nose, drop infront of it (eye contact) etc, etc. Reward your dog heavily if they can stay under those circumstances. That way, if it DOES happen in a trial, the dog knows it is better for them to stay in position rather than react to the dog.... I hope this makes sense :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Lp- i totally understand what you describe in terms of the distraction training but have one problem with the whole concept of the group stays/ dogs breaking etc. We teach our dogs to default to us when they are unsure. But then we teach in a stay that they have to stay there no matter what. My dogs have very very reliable stays but there are certain situations where i would almost want them to break to come and default to me- now in a trial in a situation like is described, that may very well cause a fight just by my dog moving. But i know that it would cause great conflict and loading for at least one of my dogs to hold a stay in a situation where the other dog is aggressing or being over the top friendly while she is in a stay. Should she hold the stay? My thoughts are this- yes she should hold the stay BUT i should intervene immediately to remove the threat for her so that she doesn't have to. I of course assume in a trial i am not allowed to do this? LP- were the dogs in the fight you saw injured? How and who got them apart? Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bow Wow Posted May 27, 2007 Author Share Posted May 27, 2007 I think that for me and bindi, I can not risk it. I would hate if, say a little dog was the one that got up and wandered over to Bindi. I would never forgive myself. I have been thinking alot tonight, and just hearing your stories and the ones I hear at obedience, about dogs breaking and fights breaking out. I have come to the conclusion that we will just stick to obedience, and the mock trials, where Bindi knows the dogs. ;) How I envy those with strong nerves, to be able to trialling. I really take my hat of to you. It is not for the faint hearted. All that really matters is that I know Bindi can do everything that she is suppose to in her grade at obedience. ;) That, and she Really loves obedience. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bow Wow Posted May 27, 2007 Author Share Posted May 27, 2007 Lp- i totally understand what you describe in terms of the distraction training but have one problem with the whole concept of the group stays/ dogs breaking etc. We teach our dogs to default to us when they are unsure. But then we teach in a stay that they have to stay there no matter what. My dogs have very very reliable stays but there are certain situations where i would almost want them to break to come and default to me- now in a trial in a situation like is described, that may very well cause a fight just by my dog moving. But i know that it would cause great conflict and loading for at least one of my dogs to hold a stay in a situation where the other dog is aggressing or being over the top friendly while she is in a stay. Should she hold the stay? My thoughts are this- yes she should hold the stay BUT i should intervene immediately to remove the threat for her so that she doesn't have to. I of course assume in a trial i am not allowed to do this? LP- were the dogs in the fight you saw injured? How and who got them apart? Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again. Cosmolo, you have raised a good point. One that completely baffles me. When a dog breaks, I think that the owner or stewards, should be able to remove that dog, before it invades another dogs space. Take away the factor that could cause a dog fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 (edited) I like your post Cosmolo! At a trial I was at last year one handler had a dog aggressive dog that had lunged at a few dogs on the grounds. There were handlers sitting on qualifying scores prior to the stays that withdrew because they didn't want to risk their dogs in the ring with the aggressive dog. I applaud them for their actions in protecting their dogs. I wonder at a system that allows dog aggressive dogs into the ring. ETA: BTW Bow wow, the above is not meant as a criticism of you...I also applaud you for giving consideration to the fact :p Edited May 27, 2007 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Who would go back to their dog if a fight broke out? I think I would. Would rather fail then break pup's trust by leaving him in 'danger'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 We teach our dogs to default to us when they are unsure. But then we teach in a stay that they have to stay there no matter what. My dogs have very very reliable stays but there are certain situations where i would almost want them to break to come and default to me- now in a trial in a situation like is described, that may very well cause a fight just by my dog moving. But i know that it would cause great conflict and loading for at least one of my dogs to hold a stay in a situation where the other dog is aggressing or being over the top friendly while she is in a stay. I am not sure if I have understood correctly.... but i'll try to answer. You are saying that for one of your dogs it would be detrimental to her confidence to stay in place and you would rather her break position? This I agree with you as I have been in this position before, just not with a stay - my dog has been on lead while walking and 'dominated' in an agressive manner by a dog at large.... I asked him to come and he flatly refused - good choice; as running to come with me would have started a fight. I guess at this stage we must leave it up to the dogs to appease the situation, which I think they are far better at doing than having us help.... but I do honestly think that giving your dog the opportunity to be able to 'deal' with a situation similar, will help reduce the stress should it ever occur. Does that make any sense? But then, should my dog ever break a stay, I have learnt the hard way that I can't correct him other than simply placing him back in position and starting again - do that more than twice and he switches off.... As to using us as a 'default' unfortunately, that is very hard in any stay situation as the dog must come to us first, which as you say - may be for the worse.... I don't know if I have answered the question, but if not - just ask again and i'll try again! Should she hold the stay? My thoughts are this- yes she should hold the stay BUT i should intervene immediately to remove the threat for her so that she doesn't have to. I of course assume in a trial i am not allowed to do this? Most judges and stewards at a trial, if quick enough will grab the dog that has broken a stay and intervened with another - if the other dogs break, you will have a 're-match' so to speak. YOU are not allowed to go to the dog unless told by the judge, but of course, who cares if your dog is at risk.... I would break and suffice my pass thank-you-very-much :p LP- were the dogs in the fight you saw injured? How and who got them apart? I only heard about the fight after it broke out so I don't know how it ceased, but I do know that no dog was injured. Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again. hmm.... what do you mean about hanging a dog out to dry? Sorry - I didn't understand that bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bow Wow Posted May 27, 2007 Author Share Posted May 27, 2007 Who would go back to their dog if a fight broke out? I think I would. Would rather fail then break pup's trust by leaving him in 'danger'. JulesP, horrible I know, but once when Bindi broke from a recall, she ran around going to all the dogs, wagging her bum and grovelling on the ground, but I just Froze. I could not move. Luckily for me the other dogs, were not aggressive and the instructor grabbed her for me. I felt really bad. :p Now I am anal in reading her. I can tell if she looks like breaking and remand her with a " ARGH" watching me so I get her focus. I stand away from other people and thier dogs. I honestly dont know what I would do if she were in a fight. I hope the responsible dog owner in me would jump in, but I fear that I will freeze again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again. I agree Cosmolo - that fight scared the crap out of me, thank dog the class was big and ended up split - that could've been my ring :p To top it off I heard a story from an experienced trialler that they returned from an out of sight stay to find a dog standing over theirs, yet no-one did anything about it. Took their dog a long time to get his confidence back after that incident. ;) Then LP's story as well.... My dog is pretty submissive and I would have no doubt heading in to get her out of a situation I wasn't comfortable with. Just wondering what the ramifications are of 1) not waiting for a judges directions or 2) disobeying them in order to protect your dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 When i say hanging out to dry, i mean putting the dog in a situation where they have to take care of it and we're not (supposedly) to intervene for them. I am my dogs leader and i will protect them- if the same situation was occurring at a park what would we do? Why should a trial be any different? LP- i'm not sure what you mean when you talk about giving the dog the opportunity to deal with it? :p Its one thing to set up a dog for distraction training in a conrolled environment with other NON threatening dogs moving around, jumping over etc. I absolutely do this. But having another dog show dominant, stressed or reactive body language and expecting that my dog has the skills to deal with it effectively- i think that adds stress not decreases it because in every other situation, we tell the dog we'll look after them so that they never have to react. Hoping that your own dogs appeasing body language is enough is not a risk i would be prepared to take. Why, in this situation should our philosophies change? And i would absolutely go to my dog if a fight broke out- stuff the pass, stuff the trial and good luck to the judge or steward that tries to stop me from doing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 (edited) Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again. I agree Cosmolo - that fight scared the crap out of me, thank dog the class was big and ended up split - that could've been my ring :p To top it off I heard a story from an experienced trialler that they returned from an out of sight stay to find a dog standing over theirs, yet no-one did anything about it. Took their dog a long time to get his confidence back after that incident. ;) Then LP's story as well.... My dog is pretty submissive and I would have no doubt heading in to get her out of a situation I wasn't comfortable with. Just wondering what the ramifications are of 1) not waiting for a judges directions or 2) disobeying them in order to protect your dog? Personally I would'nt give a rats - either about the trial, judges or other competitors. Its only a trial, theres always another one. My first responsibility always is for my dog's safety and I will do whatever I feel I need to, to protect her. (Not saying that you wouldn't FP) Edit because Cosmolo just got in before me and I notice I have said basically what she said.... Edited May 27, 2007 by Pippi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Personally I would'nt give a rats - either about the trial, judges or other competitors. Its only a trial, theres always another one. My first responsibility always is for my dog's safety and I will do whatever I feel I need to, to protect her. Same here - and I retain no respect for the grandeur of trialling if it truley expects anything less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 Just to clarify a little what I've said - I would have no doubt heading in to get her out of a situation I wasn't comfortable with. And thats exactly it - ANY situation I wasn't comfortable with I'd be in there, judges instructions or not! Just wondering what the ramifications are of 1) not waiting for a judges directions or 2) disobeying them in order to protect your dog? This was merely a curiousity question... :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 27, 2007 Share Posted May 27, 2007 (edited) When i say hanging out to dry, i mean putting the dog in a situation where they have to take care of it and we're not (supposedly) to intervene for them. I am my dogs leader and i will protect them- if the same situation was occurring at a park what would we do? Why should a trial be any different?LP- i'm not sure what you mean when you talk about giving the dog the opportunity to deal with it? :p Its one thing to set up a dog for distraction training in a conrolled environment with other NON threatening dogs moving around, jumping over etc. I absolutely do this. But having another dog show dominant, stressed or reactive body language and expecting that my dog has the skills to deal with it effectively- i think that adds stress not decreases it because in every other situation, we tell the dog we'll look after them so that they never have to react. Hoping that your own dogs appeasing body language is enough is not a risk i would be prepared to take. Why, in this situation should our philosophies change? And i would absolutely go to my dog if a fight broke out- stuff the pass, stuff the trial and good luck to the judge or steward that tries to stop me from doing it! hmm.... I don't think I worded it properly.... I dohn't mean dealing with it in terms of setting the dog up with the exact situation - but rather the 'distraction training' with NON threatening dogs walking over it, past it, giving eye contact etc. I would NEVER EVER set my dog up with an unpredictable dog. Sorry - I may not have answered that correctly. Also - in terms of the appeasement - what I mean is that I won't be asking my dog to 'come' to me or to 'stay/sit' whatever - I will just 'leave' my dog and worry about getting the offending dog away.... I just found that when I was in this situation on my own - if I tried to get my dog away a fight would have broken out so I had to concentrate on getting the OTHER dog away. I would never just leave them there and say 'well they can deal with it' if that makes sense..... but I wouldn't be asking my dog to do anything either but rather while i'm 'dealing' with the situation (ie: attempting to get the other dog away), they will be there too but 'dealing' with the situation in their own way, until I can get the dog gone.... does that make any more sense??? LOL - sometimes i'm hopeless at explaining myself! ETA: in terms of 'hanging out to dry' - I would never - trial or no trial do that - if I felt that my dog was in 'danger' - I would (if I could) tell the judge and retrieve my dog - or if I don't have time to do that - go in, release my dog and walk out of the ring..... I couldn't just leave them there if another dog was threatening them.... Don't loose hope in obedience trialling though as the situation does rarely happen - the sad thing is that when it does, news travels fast. I certianly couldn't give a rats ass for the pass if my dog is in danger and I think it horrible if anybody would wait out for their pass.... my dogs welfare is much more important. Most judges and stewards are very good also at quickly grabbing the dogs from what I have observed too..... so in all honesty - it isn't that bad Edited May 27, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvworkingdogs Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Hypothetical question.Dogs in sit stay or down stay group in trial. One dog comes up to your dog and sniffs, your dog is a bit dog aggressive and does not like his/her personal space invaded and a fight breaks out. What are the consequences?? This has not happened. But is my worst nightmare and the reason I can not let myself go into trialling. Bindi is a staffy x, she is 3 years old, was heavily socialised as a pup and has done obedience since she was 18 weeks. At around the age of 18 months, my friendly girl, started to snap at ' some ' dogs. She has never been in a fight. Has been bitten on the nose by a dally when she was younger. My fear is if she ever bit a dog she would get put down. She is my baby and this thought terrifies me. Bindi is very clever. The instructors are always telling me to trial her. But my fear stops me from doing so. She has been in two mock trials. Coming 2nd with a score of 96 in her first. Then today she came 1st with 85. Hi, this actually happened to me a couple of years ago with my ACD. He was really solid on his stays, but before we went in to the ring a staffy growled and lunged at him. I was quick enough to get my boy away from him at the time, but it put him on the defensive. When we got into the ring for stays this staff was 2 dogs away from my boy so I thought it would be ok. Unfortunately the dog in between them got up and walked after his owner but stopped half way. The staffy then got up and went over to the other dog in the middle of the ring. The staffy was very stiff and tail upright and wagging stifly as he sniffed the other dog. My dog obviously read the body language and thought a fight was about to break out, which it probably was. He must have felt the need to get in first and ran over to the other two dogs and all hell broke out. We all ran over to grab our dogs and luckily no one was hurt. The unfortunate part is that because my dog actually started the fight he was banned for 3 months and had to pass a test before he could compete again. I never returned to trials with him because he would never be reliable again. In hine sight I should have withdrawn him after the upset outside the ring because they were eye balling after that and it was obvious that he was worried about that dog. I think a more experienced trainer would have known to withdraw their dog. I would certainly withdraw my dogs that i trial now if it happened again. Opinions greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Luvworkindogs ..... How come you posted only a quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 Erny - I think the post was mucked up - in the 2nd 1/2 of the quote you'll see their reply :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 I like your post Cosmolo!At a trial I was at last year one handler had a dog aggressive dog that had lunged at a few dogs on the grounds. There were handlers sitting on qualifying scores prior to the stays that withdrew because they didn't want to risk their dogs in the ring with the aggressive dog. I applaud them for their actions in protecting their dogs. I wonder at a system that allows dog aggressive dogs into the ring. ETA: BTW Bow wow, the above is not meant as a criticism of you...I also applaud you for giving consideration to the fact :D Rom, I wonder at a system that requires this type of stay!!!! This is a point I've made before and I TOTALLY agree with you Cosmolo. It's not the right setup at all. it is asking for trouble and totally against the dog's nature and places a heck of a lot of stress on them. I wonder that Schutzhund is such a dirty word to some people at VCA Obedience trials, yet things like the stays in Schutzhund are so much more in tune with the dog and what we teach them. Couldn't VCA adopt a similar stays policy? I guess they don't because it would involve running much bigger rings or basically two rings for the one class at the same time. But they could do it with a smaller 'stays' ring for one dog and handler at a time. We aren't expected to do heeling with someone else doing the same exercise beside us, are we. I too wouldn't give a damn if it stuffed things up, if a dog fight broke out in my ring I'd be over to my dog like a shot. I've worked too long and too hard to get her comfortable enough to sit near other dogs than to have some other dog sniffing her and starting a fight, or have her watch a fight down the other end of the line and be expected to sit there motionless while it goes on. It does their heads in, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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