Ground Work

[RottnBullies]

Hi,

Am interested to know if anyone has ever used this method with any of their dogs??

If so with what results?

From the Leeburg Dog Training Site!

http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

Thanks

Edited May 27, 2007 by RottnBullies

[Ms James]

Um, I think for my nature his methods might be a bit ... harsh, there are other ways to foster good pack structure with time & commitment. Take, for example, his trapping the dog's head through the door - setting them up to fail - we use a modified version of this with pretty much the same result (the dogs won't go through the door before us): we put them in a sit, then open the door a titch & if their bum gets off the ground by even a micrometre the door shuts and does not open again until they're calm & sitting again. It might take forever to inch the door more & more & being able to set a foot outside before you free them, but at least you're not shutting the door on their head. As a layperson, to me that just smacks of someone wanting to humiliate their dog - but who am I to say. Besides, knowing my clumsy luck there'd be a great big bloody gust of wind slamming the door harder & practically decapitating the poor thing! Anyway, my two cents is that these techniques might be a bit heavy handed for someone who just wants a family pet.

I agree with his philosophy of the dog only looking to you for gratification though. He does make some good points, even if they're not really my style when it comes for caring for my pet.

And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!

ETA: Besides, he makes a lot of spelling & grammatical mistakes on his website. Sorry, I'm just a grammar nazi :D

E(again)TA: I am, however, exempt from this grammar naziness. I can use however many run-on sentences & parentheses as I wish because I wear glasses & therefore look smart

Edited May 26, 2007 by MsJames

[jesomil]

I thought it was a good article with many good points.

I think alot of people get away with not doing any of this stuff with their dog because their dog never pushes them for leadership, but if or when the dog does push them, thats when we see all the behaviour problems starting.

It might take forever to inch the door more & more & being able to set a foot outside before you free them, but at least you're not shutting the door on their head

Who has got forever to teach their dog how to walk out the door. Its great if you have nothing else to do in life. The way he describes closing the door on the dog would not harm the dog at all but will teach it very quickly.

And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!

Have you researched the pro's and con's of yearly vaccination after puppyhood to allow you to make that comment?

There are too many spoilt dogs and too many behaviour problems in the world IMO .

What the article says is quite full on but the person is used to dealing with very dominant dogs. I personally wouldnt use all his techniques but would use whatever was needed for a particular dog. If i took on a very dominant adult dog then i would follow his rules.

[Sayreovi]

Agreed with Jesomil.

I had a very dominant head strong male, you cant use the same 'gentle' techniques with them as you can with submissive dogs.

I taught my dogs not to jump out of the back of the car by shutting the boot quickly if they attempted to get out. I think i caught them once by accident but after that they never tried again.

I couldnt wait forever to train it like you suggest, they needed to know they cant get out of the car, pretty much straight away. Same applied to the gate into the backyard, we live near a fairly busy road.

Never once did i hurt them....suprised them but no hurting. If i did to some extent i would rather that then them getting out and getting hit by a car.

As Jesomil said research not giving vaccines. I certainly wouldnt be if i wasnt a member of a dog club.

ETA: Spelling

Edited May 27, 2007 by tollersowned

[RottnBullies]

Thanks for the Input guys

I also thought he had made some good points to work with, as you said Jesomil, probably not needed for many dogs, but ones with leadership problems I think could benefit from It.

I have a stuburn dominant female who has risen well above where she's meant to be (My fault I am way to soft! )

and was thinking to give this a go, problem Is I have 4 other dogs, and not sure how to go about It whith the others?

How do I treat them in front of her?, do I interact with them in her presence?

She will have her own enclosure, so will be seperated for some time, till I can trust her again around other dogs, as she Is now being aggressive towards them :D I am hopeing that It will be possible later for her to have some interaction with the rest of the pack.

Any ideas, I would greatly appreciate It

Thanks

PS> When funds are more readily available I was also thinking of seeing K9 for help

[Ms James]

And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!

Have you researched the pro's and con's of yearly vaccination after puppyhood to allow you to make that comment?

You wouldn't not vaccinate your child on the off chance that the vaccination would have ill effect. The same goes for your pets, vaccinating against a disease and possibly having an unwelcome outcome is outweighed by the probability of dealing with the disease you haven't vaccinated against. There are risks with everything you put in your body, your child's body, your pet's body. Do you not take an antibiotic for a bacterial infection because statistics gathered in the clinical trials of a drug showed that a small percentage of individuals suffered negative side effects? No, you take your chances knowing that, as I said, the benefits far outweigh the ill effects. It's a tragedy when vaccinations and drug intolerances take a life, but that doesn't necessarily mean there should be a blanket ban on vaccinations.

IMO, his methods are harsh for the average family pet. There are better ways to show leadership in family pets (and NOT overly aggressive & dominant dogs) that don't require you to teach your dog through humiliating techniques. In my book, forever (and good on you for taking that literally, btw) means time, patience, & commitment. Every trainer I've ever spoken to has emphasised that there are no quick fixes, just time, consistency, and good leadership - probably the only thing trainers agree on! We had two dominant dogs in the home, not due to being spoilt, simply bad leadership & lack of proper socialisation on the behalf of their previous owners. It took *forever*, but we've managed to get them to curb their antisocial behaviour within the home.

Like I said, I'm a clumsy person (there was no reading between the lines needed in that statement) - slamming the boot shut on my dog? With my dumb luck his tail would have been caught & we'd be making a nice emergency trip to the vet hospital down the road instead of chasing seagulls at the beach. But that's my luck. Not your luck. That's gotta be stressed. I'd hate to know that my dog learnt a lesson simply because I hurt him. Those methods don't work for me, I can't afford the vet bills

[Sayreovi]

And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!

Have you researched the pro's and con's of yearly vaccination after puppyhood to allow you to make that comment?

You wouldn't not vaccinate your child on the off chance that the vaccination would have ill effect. The same goes for your pets, vaccinating against a disease and possibly having an unwelcome outcome is outweighed by the probability of dealing with the disease you haven't vaccinated against. There are risks with everything you put in your body, your child's body, your pet's body. Do you not take an antibiotic for a bacterial infection because statistics gathered in the clinical trials of a drug showed that a small percentage of individuals suffered negative side effects? No, you take your chances knowing that, as I said, the benefits far outweigh the ill effects. It's a tragedy when vaccinations and drug intolerances take a life, but that doesn't necessarily mean there should be a blanket ban on vaccinations.

Do you know that DOG vaccines last 3 years?

Most people who dont vaccinate every year do it every three or get a titre test done then assess whether to vaccinate.

IMO you cannot compare people with dogs. Last time i checked they were different species

Like I said, I'm a clumsy person (there was no reading between the lines needed in that statement) - slamming the boot shut on my dog? With my dumb luck his tail would have been caught & we'd be making a nice emergency trip to the vet hospital down the road instead of chasing seagulls at the beach. But that's my luck. Not your luck. That's gotta be stressed. I'd hate to know that my dog learnt a lesson simply because I hurt him. Those methods don't work for me, I can't afford the vet bills :D

I think you read my post wrong. Where did i saw slamming? The boot never shut it came down quickly enough to make the dogs stop getting out but in the off chance there foot or tail managed to slip there was enough room. Common sense not to slam the boot down, it took them about 3 goes and they have never tried again.

How many times will you have to do it before they stopped trying to get out before the boot was fully up and the dog still stayed in the car until you clipped a lead on them?

[Ms James]

Do you know that DOG vaccines last 3 years?

Most people who dont vaccinate every year do it every three or get a titre test done then assess whether to vaccinate.

IMO you cannot compare people with dogs. Last time i checked they were different species

I'm sorry, I struggle to see where this fits in or where I mentioned any frequency in vaccinations. Are you trying to make a point that you have superior knowledge of this issue, a degree in veterinary science perhaps? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I was hardly comparing humans to animals, merely trying to illustrate a point that one should provide the same level of care and attention to their pets as they would their children.

Re: hatch closing (I'm assuming you have a hatchback or 4WD, I couldn't imagine you shoving your dogs in a sedan boot mafia-style), I understand that closing quickly & slamming are two different things. Where you would have the agility to close something quickly, I would be slamming. I did mention previously (twice, in fact), that I was clumsy. I do wish you'd understand that, it's not an easy admission to make that you're the type of person that can't control their gross motor skills.

Apples & oranges. Can we not agree to disagree, without getting everyone's collective hackles up and resorting to point-by-point post assassination?

[kamuzz]

Where you would have the agility to close something quickly, I would be slamming. I did mention previously (twice, in fact), that I was clumsy. I do wish you'd understand that, it's not an easy admission to make that you're the type of person that can't control their gross motor skills.

Oh I am so with you on that one. My dogs are supposed to sit while I clip their leads on. 5 minutes later I'm still fumbling around and the dog has given up sitting.....

[Sayreovi]

I'm sorry, I struggle to see where this fits in or where I mentioned any frequency in vaccinations. Are you trying to make a point that you have superior knowledge of this issue, a degree in veterinary science perhaps? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Considering you said "And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!" is your POV and it seems you havent done any research then yes i have more knowledge then you on this issue.

[Ms James]

Considering you said "And his stance on vaccination. No vacs???? That's just crazy talk!" is your POV and it seems you havent done any research then yes i have more knowledge then you on this issue.

Aw shucks, I guess extending an olive branch to someone who is in such need to prove themselves is futile. You're right, it is my POV, and I was merely expressing it, as one is wont to do on a forum which, incidentally, provides information for (ta daaa) research purposes. Actually, you've made a few assumptions here, not in the least assuming how someone whom you don't know spends their time & resources on finding the best way to look after their pets. Isn't that the purpose of a forum such as this, and the reason as to why I, and so many others, would frequent it? You're correct though, I am a layperson in both dog health and dog behaviour management as I am not a practising veterinarian. For such matters, I have to defer to experts in such fields and, unless you have such qualifications, throwing such barbs as "you really don't know what you're talking about, & I do because I'm me and you're not" is counterproductive. Something more helpful like "actually MsJames, there have been numerous instances of tragic side effects due to vaccinations, here's a (helpful) link to an academic article I found to help you along your way", that opens up a nice debate does it not? Mudslinging and false senses of superiority, IMO, rarely achieve the desired purpose. Unless, that is, your desired purpose was to continue to have every small quotation on this matter hammered out for the whole forum to see. The truth is, I'll stick to my ground, & you will stick to yours. It's as simple as that.

As previously mentioned, if you are indeed a qualified veterinarian, then please accept my apologies. This means you have spent years training and educating yourself to a level where you are able to interpret clinical results and extrapolate useful information from them. If not, and you have merely trawled the wonderful world wide web for information, under the guise of "research", then you are wasting my time. My assumption about you, is that you're a fan of internet research & word-of-mouth heresay evidence. But hey, that's my assumption about you, we're allowed to do that, right? Although the internet is a good tool for basic information, there is too much hysteria and misinformation on the web to provide a source for in-depth research unless, that is, you are reading academic papers published online and peer-reviewed. Anything else could be considered specious. Big word, I know. Look it up.

I made an off the cuff remark that, if you actually look closely at the wording, was written in a facetious manner. I stand by what I believe in, and I initially backed that up with philosophical thought regarding the care of my children and how that correlated to the care of my pets. You inferred poor judgement and naivete on my behalf, at exactly what point did you furnish any evidence that my flippant remarks were untrue, other than to basically say I was an idiot?

You can call me an idiot if you wish, but please do so in a manner which does not insult my intelligence.

[Sayreovi]

Wow, :p I cant believe my 3 lined paragraph got that massive post out of you. Didnt realise i got under your skin that much

If it means that much to you i will find some research written by Vets if you like.....as that seems to be the only people you think has any idea.

If not, and you have merely trawled the wonderful world wide web for information, under the guise of "research", then you are wasting my time.

Well then, perhaps you shouldnt bother coming here any more, because ALL of us bar one are wasting your time.

I am sure the long time breeders, trainers and dog owners have absoloutely no idea what we are talking about after all our research is crap according to you.

ETA: On your connection for care of your children and dogs, why is that children have vaccines and not adults?

Edited May 27, 2007 by tollersowned

[Ms James]

Oh sweetie, just because I'm verbose don't go thinking that you've caused more than a mild frisson ;)

Vets *do* have an idea, same as doctors, lawyers, accountants, & other professionals. These people have been specifically trained in their fields of expertise to be able to interpret results from clinical trials. Each & every one of these professionals, and I include dog trainers in the ranks of professionals, will agree with one thing: Forums & the internet are a great place to start for general information, but it's absolutely imperative that you seek professional face to face intervention & advice when needed. It's actually been said several times by each trainer I've seen posting here on the forums. That is probably the most invaluable advice they give.

One of the things that I can't stand on forums is people who are posting with urgent cases (ie, my dog/cat/child/husband/guy I have tied up in my basement is bleeding profusely from the eyeballs,what should I do??????"), where invariably a whole bunch of posts come back with "WTF are you doing typing at a computer with this problem? Get your moronic arse into a car & go immediately to the vet/really adventurous vet with a lot of padding/pediatrician/dodgy doctor/late night STD clinic". Drives me nuts. I want to smack them around the head....but I'm a pacifist, and I digress, and probably giving far too much information as to what forums I frequent

In regards to adults not being vaccinated...um, you're not exactly well travelled, are you? Adults get vaccinated all the time, especially travelling to remote places and certain parts of Africa/Asia/Middle East/South America. In fact, there's going to be an adult version of the gardisil vaccine going to be made available within the next few years. Do your research, and if you prefer cervical cancer to vaccination theories, then more power to you, sister. On a side note, I was vaccinated myself not two years ago when I almost sliced my finger off (V Slicer incident, v. gory), tetanus injection with VERY large HUMUNGOUS needle wielded by a rhymes-with-witch of a nurse. It hurt. A lot. Didn't even get a freaking lollipop.

It's nice to see you laugh, even at my expense. For a moment there I thought you were one of those humourless crones...but I've been proven wrong once or twice before.

ETA: I know :p , sorry RottnBullies

Edited May 27, 2007 by MsJames

[jesomil]

Sorry RottnBulies that this thread has gone a bit off topic. I didnt mean to start a vaccination debate, i was just commenting on something MsJames said.

MsJames - There is alot of discussion about vaccinations. There was a recent thread on child vaccs in the off topic forum and there are many good discussions regarding dog vaccs in the health forum. Worth a read.

I have researched on and off the net and have made the decision that i feel is the best for my child and dogs regarding vaccinations. Hopefully everyone does their own research and does what they think is the best for them as we all have a choice and should be allowed to make that choice.

Because some people choose not to vaccinate their animals or children doesnt make them full of "crazy talk", it means they have done their own research and take sufficient measures to manage their decisions.

Ignore posts that are confrontational or condescending. I do .

RottnBullies, i dont think anyone can give you advice on your situation regarding the domainant female as it is something that has to be seen and assessed. Calling K9 sounds like the best idea :p

[Sayreovi]

You know what never mind, no matter what i say is wrong (apparantly) or seen as confrontational and condescending.

You just go on believing dogs MUST have vaccines, cause surely only your vet has any idea :p

Edited May 28, 2007 by tollersowned

[jesomil]

Sorry TO, i didnt mean you directly but in general. You guys are obviously not seeing eye to eye and if the discussion is going on a downward spiral i sometimes think it is best to move on from the poster that may be affecting you. No one will learn anything unless posts are friendly and helpful.

[Ms James]

Sorry RottnBulies that this thread has gone a bit off topic. I didnt mean to start a vaccination debate, i was just commenting on something MsJames said.

MsJames - There is alot of discussion about vaccinations. There was a recent thread on child vaccs in the off topic forum and there are many good discussions regarding dog vaccs in the health forum. Worth a read.

I have researched on and off the net and have made the decision that i feel is the best for my child and dogs regarding vaccinations. Hopefully everyone does their own research and does what they think is the best for them as we all have a choice and should be allowed to make that choice.

Because some people choose not to vaccinate their animals or children doesnt make them full of "crazy talk", it means they have done their own research and take sufficient measures to manage their decisions.

Ignore posts that are confrontational or condescending. I do .

RottnBullies, i dont think anyone can give you advice on your situation regarding the domainant female as it is something that has to be seen and assessed. Calling K9 sounds like the best idea :D

Again, I'll mention that the "crazy talk" remark was facetious, I do try as I can to punctuate my posts with as much humour as possible. I'd like to think there are people out there that can understand that, unfortunately that's not always the case and as I can see, something as simple as that can be misinterpreted. If anyone had actually bothered to read the article, they'd see this guy doesn't actually vaccinate the puppies in his care, he instead uses natural foods & hopes that their natural immunity will combat any diseases his dogs encounter. From browsing the health forums, the general consensus here is that early vaccination for pets is vital, it's merely the frequency of vaccination into adulthood that is under debate. That's an interesting topic, and one for another forum. So that will all that will be said on this matter. As I used to write (gleefully, I might add!) in my previous business correspondence "no further correspondence will be entered into" :D

I just hate the whole "what would you know, you're obviously not as smart as I am" style of argument that doesn't actually offer anything to back it up. If anyone wanted to counter a statement I've made then, everyone, please tell me *why* I'm wrong. Playing the "pah, I'm superior to you" card without actually showing me how one is superior is just...silly. That was actually the point of my (longwinded) posts. I apologise if that was also misinterpreted.

Anyway, back on topic: Girl needs to take her doggy to a great behaviourist who'll diagnose her dog's behaviour issue correctly & will provide a training plan to suit the doggy. There are heaps of really good trainers on this forum that will be able to point her in the right direction, and I'm sure some of the training techniques linked to might actually play a part in the doggy rehab.

Good luck!!