Training A Dog Aggressive Dog

[Kelpie-i]

K9: I guess in this theoretical discussion we need to give the benefit of the doubt to the original diagnosis, & I think what makes me feel like that in the real world is that most trainers commonly tell me how they have clients that either wont put in the rwork or give up to soon.

K9 this is most certainly the case in many situations, however how do we know for sure that the original diagnosis was the correct one?

I think that whe it comes to solving these problems, more solving is done by working with the owners than is done by working with the dog, & the working with the dog side sometimes is just to provide a visual picture to the owner, the real behaviour modification will take place a the hands of the owner over the coming weeks.

Which is why I don't think boarding/training works for cases of aggression.

K9, the fact that MsJames has been given a number of different diagnoses about her dog's problem and each with their differing methods to employ is a real concern. Here we are telling her to stick with it and to not give up, but which one of those many diagnosis and methods is actually the correct one and which one should she stick with? This is what I am driving at.

If sound diagnosis and advice is provided and the owner is either too impatient or does not employ the advice given, then that is one thing, but to hear conflicting information and not know which one is the right one must be extremely difficult for the owner.

[Kelpie-i]

Kavik:I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse

Kavik, if it makes you feel better, you're certainly not alone!!

[Cosmolo]

Valid points kelpie-i, erny and k9.

Just wanted to add that sometimes, while the diagnosis may be correct and a training technique/ behaviour mod program may be implemented that is considered appropriate at the time, this can change if the handler finds it difficult/ impossible to implement effectively or the dogs behaviour changes. The changes can often be made without having to jump from trainer to trainer as a good trainer/ behaviourist should (emphasis on should) have many techniques up their sleeve.

These changes/ adjustments or continuation of the original program (if its the case that a misunderstanding occurred so the technique is right but not being implemented correctly) cannot be done if the original trainer/ behaviourist is not asked/ questioned, and in that way i believe that then jumping from trainer to trainer is detrimental as the original program has not been completed. If the original trainer is consulted and has nothing further to offer or improvements are not being made, by all means seeking another trainer is a valid thing to do.

Its difficult in that clients don't know whether they are jumping from a good trainer to one who doesn't have the sufficient knowledge to deal with the problem or vice versa. I have seen cases where the client has been given the correct information but they have not followed through and then sought a second trainer, just as i have seen cases where the original trainer did (IMO) make some errors and potentially exacerbate the problem. But how is a client meant to know who is who and when they should continue to work with someone or seek a new trainer?

[Erny]

K9, the fact that MsJames has been given a number of different diagnoses about her dog's problem and each with their differing methods to employ is a real concern. Here we are telling her to stick with it and to not give up ...

Kelpie-i .... what I mentioned was a generic statement. It was not aimed at MsJames specifically (as you already know, I will not advise on aggression over the net - nor can I support or refute a training method as being unsuitable or suitable without having seen the dog in question. Not that I know what MsJames has been prescribed anyway) and was a point simply to make because there are many times when owners give up too quickly. In addition I have come across those who specifically dot from one trainer to the next to the next on a weekly basis, simply because they didn't want to make the effort that was suggested by each one in their wake. And this is not to say this is what MsJames has been doing either (just in case it is otherwise read that way).

You are right. The diagnosis must be correct at the beginning. And the behaviour modification method prescribed needs to be appropriate to the dog, taking the owner into account also. I think this goes without saying. Even though there are times it needs to be said.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K:9 this is most certainly the case in many situations, however how do we know for sure that the original diagnosis was the correct one?

K9: sorry, thats why I said in this therotical discussion we should give the benefit of the doubt. Good chance it may have been wrong but as we havent seen the dog, who knows?

K: Which is why I don't think boarding/training works for cases of aggression.

K9: Yes I agree 99%, there are just some people that are so defeated they dont believe results will be gained & boarding the dog & showing some results can help.

In some circumstances, some people are not capable of making a big enough, black to white, change in the way they treat their dog, & a little kennel time can make a clear line in the sand to the dog.

So many people fail with behaviour because it is so diverse, whats right for one isnt right for another...(as you know)

K: K9, the fact that MsJames has been given a number of different diagnoses about her dog's problem and each with their differing methods to employ is a real concern.

K9: Yes it is, some of them will be wrong, we just dont know which one yet...

K: Here we are telling her to stick with it and to not give up, but which one of those many diagnosis and methods is actually the correct one and which one should she stick with? This is what I am driving at.

K9: True, I havent said though that she should stick with it, rather "changing from one menthod to another is wrong"..

I guess though this is why I harp on so much abou getting the diagnosis right first time. Having said that, 90% of the time I have a client come to me from another behaviourist, I prove the first diagnosis was wrong.

Simply put, whe you get the diagnosis right, then se up a good program on the back of that diagnosis, results come fast (as you have seen), so people dont feel compelled to go elsewhere most times.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Good advice is: -

Decide on your behavourist by good research, get some information from someone who has used that person before.

Attend a session with them & be prepared, have questions ready.

Take away as much as you can & follow the advice given religiously without listening to others or getting your own information from other sources (even here) for a reasonable amount of time.

Then see what results you have gained...

[Cosmolo]

If only everyone took that advice k9.. Some people don't know how to choose or choose for the wrong reasons- i have had clients choose us because our website looks 'pretty'! or because they like our name. Its not easy for people to choose when they don't know what to look for.

[jesomil]

I have yet to meet a working bred kelpie who likes unfamiliar dogs...although I'm sure there are some out there. I think Jesomil's kelpie is good around other dogs, but then again most of the dogs from the Go-Getta lines are from what I see. Jesomil, please feel free to correct/add to this.

Yes, my boy is fantastic around all dogs. He did go through a stage at around 1 year where i think his hormones kicked in and he tried to be Mr Tough guy but that passed and he mellowed out again. He is great because he will never fight even when he is getting on tip toes with another male. Completely different to his working style.

Its interesting because in my experience with working line kelpies, most of them are good with other dogs. Not sure if the fact that they are actually working dogs makes a difference.

I am interested as to what part upbringing and handling from their owner plays in this or if it is all genetic.

ETA Kelpie-i, have we met?

Edited May 23, 2007 by jesomil

[Ms James]

You did, thanks. It just confuses me that the most obedient dog in the house is the most volatile.

Oh my god! I know exactly what you mean, Roggie is easier to handle & responds better to commands (when no distractions are around!) than Bella, the so-called "sociable tart"

I just thought I might clear one thing up: We haven't jumped from one trainer to the next, we initially had a really good personal trainer (you know who you are :p), but unfortunately due to personal & practical reasons (they were too far for us ) we had to give them up. We then went to ADT, and with the nature of such large group classes with heaps of trainers around, there's invariably going to be different trainers come up to you on different days, see the orange lead and how you're struggling on that day & then offer advice based on this.

Please don't think we're trainer shopping! Ultimately, I do believe it's down to us. Maybe we should just leave the dogs at home and have the trainers train us!

[Kelpie-i]

ETA Kelpie-i, have we met?

Not officially, I saw you at Welshpool with your gorgeous boy and fell in love with him. I was a little shy to introduce myself. However you did tell me in a previous thread about him and the fact that he is Go-Getta line which is what I was contemplating getting before I ended up with a Beloka/Futura lineage dog. Bloody Beloka lines!!!

[jesomil]

Not officially, I saw you at Welshpool with your gorgeous boy and fell in love with him. I was a little shy to introduce myself. However you did tell me in a previous thread about him and the fact that he is Go-Getta line which is what I was contemplating getting before I ended up with a Beloka/Futura lineage dog. Bloody Beloka lines!!!

You should have said hello But then again, i was too shy to come over to you guys as well Next time.

My new pup is Capree/Futura so it will be interesting to see how she is aggression wise.

ETA sorry, guys for my OT kelpie talk, i will stop now. We really need a Kelpie thread!!!!

Edited May 23, 2007 by jesomil

[ruthless]

Do all the professional trainers here believe that dog to dog agression can ever be fully cured? To the extent that the dog can be allowed off lead with unknown dogs and will not react to them. I just need to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel!

[Erny]

Ruthless - in short, yes, it is possible. But is it likely and to what extent? That depends on oh so many variable factors. The genetics of the dog. The reason for the aggression. How old the dog is. How long the aggression has been occurring (ie how 'ingrained'). When (ie in what period of the dog's life) the aggression began. How dedicated the handler is towards working on modifying it (including how consistently). How good the handler is/becomes regarding timing and reading the dog (and other dogs) body language. How much of a "leader" the handler (ie owner) is as perceived by the dog. Whether the dog has good pack drive or whether that can be developed.

It also depends on what you might regard as "cured". It might not end up being a case of your dog enjoying actively playing with other dogs. Or if he does, it might be merely a select few. Some people would regard that as "not cured". It might simply be being content with a dog who has learnt to defer to you and who can more easily cope (even if not enjoy) with other dogs in proximity.

When there has been a history of aggression I am always mindful of the potential for it being re-triggered. Successful behaviour modification merely decreases the threshold to aggressive reactivity. IMO

I would suggest your "light at the end of the tunnel" always be for any improvement you can get - incrementally. And work to progress from that improvement to the next.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[MonElite]

I have been told that it can not be fully cured, as even if the dog is trained well enough and "forgets" the past in the shit happens situation will always revert back to the defencive instincts.

Basically dogs dont forget what they have experienced but it can be masked over quite effectivelly.

Im glad tho that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for some, thanks Erny.

[Kelpie-i]

I would suggest your "light at the end of the tunnel" always be for any improvement you can get - incrementally. And work to progress from that improvement to the next.

Amen!!

[wolfgirl]

ETA Kelpie-i, have we met?

I was a little shy to introduce myself.

Sorry You shy , stop it you're making me laugh too hard :p

[Kelpie-i]

Sorry You shy , stop it you're making me laugh too hard

I am really......

[Jennifer]

Since our youngest dog got attacked, he has agression towards other dogs ( he is only 9 motnhs old) and was 6 mnths when attack happened. He spent a while in the vets and was in a very bad way but still managed to wag his tail when he seen us come to visit. It was really awful.

When the time came that we could actually walk him, he would jump up on his hinds,bark agressively, do everything he could really when when another dog approached. It was strange because we socialize with our neighbours dogs and he is fine with them. I tried to distract him with clickers and toys and food, and explained to neighbours that he is in training because of his incident. I sometimes had close shaves with redirected agression but kept going. I've been trying for 2 months every day, twice a day to help him build confidence around other dogs. But I finally decided was time for expert, so we booked in with k9force.

I seen k9force at a recent bsl awarness rally in sydney. I had my staffy with me but left our trouble maker which we've renaimed 'damien' at home, as didn't think it would do the rally any favours. Ive added a pic of him below,we got him xrenbury...

He is extremely affectionate and gentle with kids and people. Never displays any form of agression with our 4yr old staffy.I hope we can help him out!

Edited May 24, 2007 by Jennifer

[Ms James]

Awww Jennifer, he's adorabubble! Good luck with the training

[ShellyBeggs]

Hey did I hear Go-Getta line.......

My boy Anzac is from them...............

Hey small world!!!!! Our dogs could be cousins.....(back to the kelpie thread i guess)

But it makes me feel better too that someone has a non-dog agressive kelpie from them!

I am used to training highly socialable dogs such as my lab and was starting to worry I wouldn't cope!