Training A Dog Aggressive Dog

[Kelpie-i]

MsJames: We then put him in a fast-track obedience training kennel for a week, came up a treat while with the trainer, but then reverted back to his old ways with us.

Now why doesn't that surprise me!!!

We did the one on one training, which was great, but he was only fine when the trainer was there

Again no surprises there!! Was the trainer using correction based techniques for this??

However, each time we see a different person, they each diagnose Roggie with a different aggression type.

Let me guess... some say it's fear based, others say it's dominance based and others say it's handler based.

MsJames, aggression stemming from poor socialisation can be curbed (to a degree) with the correct methods and you should start seeing results early in the piece, however aggression that is genetic based cannot! In your case, I feel you may have a mixture of both - however this is a just a "guess" given that I don't know your dog nor the dog's history. Further, improper diagnosis and handling can compound the problem.

[Cosmolo]

MsJames, with each of the training types you have tried, did you inform the trainer of the difficulties you began to experience while on your own? Sometimes going from trainer to trainer or training type to training type is not the best solution.

[Steve K9Pro]

LWD: Hi K9, I am very interested in this topic as I too have the same prob with my kelpie bitch. I have only had her for a couple of months and she is now about 12 months old. She is very posessive of me and attacks my other dogs if they come near me. At dog club she does the same thing but I think with strange dogs maybe it is fear aggression. How can you work out which it is and is it possibly both fear and dominance at the same time?

K9: Ok, where it can be confusing is that even fear aggression tha has developed over time can be rank driven in the end, in other words, a dog that starts showing aggression driven by fear can become confiden after a period of time & rank drive can then be the source of aggression.

The problem is that as soon as you attempt to treat this as a rank issue, the dog will become fearful, so its a tricky one to sort.

When attacking our other dogs this will not be out of fear, strange dogs certainly can be...

Really this dog needs to be assessed by someone who is an expert in the field, I am sure I will have some one who can help near by, maybe shoot me an email.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Sometimes going from trainer to trainer or training type to training type is not the best solution.

K9: Yep this is 100% true, all the dog learns is that you will give up eventually & will try hold out until you do..

For behavour problems I am not a big believer in having the dog trained & then going and picking it up, I think the handler is very important in the long term rehab.

[Erny]

For behavour problems I am not a big believer in having the dog trained & then going and picking it up, I think the handler is very important in the long term rehab.

I completely agree with the above.

Sometimes the problem is, though, that the problem doesn't progress as fast as the owner might prefer (quite often due to owners needing the time to develop consistency, timing co-ordination and such like ..... which is understandable) and feeling/thinking that what they are doing isn't working. Sometimes it is because the owners simply don't think the effort is worth it because they don't believe it will work at all. Having the dogs trained at least demonstrates to the owners what their dog CAN be like - that it DOES work and can give them faith (and an understanding that the problem lays in their own hands) and further encourages them to continue on, if only they will.

And often I find that people will dot from trainer to trainer, from one week to the next, attempting different exercises/methodologies. Neither one methodology might be incorrect, but as Cosmolo suggests, it doesn't help the dog recognise a 'pattern' it can believe and trust in.

I don't think trainers are completely blameless either - especially when an owner has access to many on a routine basis. They should be asking the owner what method they have been recommended, how long they've been trying it and whether they have been consistent in it. It's also helpful if the owner informs a trainer of this whether invited to or not.

I usually try to encourage people to "stick with it" and "work through it" if they can, explaining that in the end, it will be THEM the dog has learnt to defer to, rather than the trainer. But sometimes, a trainer handler can help hurdle behaviour the owners simply cannot and this can work ...... provided the owners continue to work through with it. Private lessons/consults following this is a huge benefit to the owners who by that stage are the ones who need the coaching.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Very well put Erny I think i should just leave things for you to say because you seem to be able to type it far more eloquently than me!!

[ruthless]

if a dog is a quick learner, from an obedience point of view, will it help in trying to train the aggression out of them?

[MonElite]

train the aggression out of them?

Is this fully possible?

[Erny]

if a dog is a quick learner, from an obedience point of view, will it help in trying to train the aggression out of them?

If a dog has learnt obedience skills, these obedience skills can be used to assist in the behaviour modification program. Training a dog in obedience also goes part way to leadership - ie the owner demonstrating on a regular basis that he/she retains/maintains the right to govern. But obedience by itself does not go to changing the dog's emotional state. So obedience is only part of the equation.

Does that answer your question, Ruthless? Because I wasn't really sure what you meant by "training the aggression out of them from an obedience point of view"?

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[swain]

come join us in the Kelpie thread

Maybe if all us Kelpie people get together we can also figure out the dog-dog issues Gotta love em

Just off topic for a sec.......sorry.

Is it common for a kelpie to be dog agressive and have "issues" with lots a stuff?

[ruthless]

You did, thanks. It just confuses me that the most obedient dog in the house is the most volatile. I keep hearing and reading that dogs are often aggressive due to the lack of a confident leader, but I don't feel that this is the case with us. I guess I wanted to know if obedience training and a dog de-aggression programme would be linked in any way. Is there a hope that because he's easy to train that we'll be successful in getting past this issue?

[Erny]

You did, thanks.

Good ..... I wasn't sure if I was on the same page as you.

I keep hearing and reading that dogs are often aggressive due to the lack of a confident leader ....

A dog will be more likely to defer to a confident leader and handler. As per my above post, obedience training goes part way to leadership. It's not the be-all and end-all. But it is very helpful.

I guess I wanted to know if obedience training and a dog de-aggression programme would be linked in any way.

Yes - as per explanation in my above post.

Is there a hope that because he's easy to train that we'll be successful in getting past this issue?

I would not link "intelligence/biddibility" with "emotional depth", if you understand my meaning. However, pack drive is certainly a big advantage. The cause of the aggression needs to be taken into account, as does any genetic influence of the breed.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Just off topic for a sec.......sorry.

Is it common for a kelpie to be dog agressive and have "issues" with lots a stuff?

My word it is EXTREMELY common with kelpies and other herding breeds. Most of these working dogs are born on farms which means very limited socialisation and exposure to other things. The only other dogs and humans they see are those they have grown up with. Also, (as was discussed in another thread), "working" bred kelpies and other herding breeds have a genetic tendency for aggression which is what is required when they work, so some of this aggression is due to this. Most working kelpies I've met can also be quite "skittish" around new things -this is probably because most farmers choose to breed from the more "popoular" working lines which carry this trait.

Cosmolo: I usually try to encourage people to "stick with it" and "work through it" if they can

Erny Neither one methodology might be incorrect, but as Cosmolo suggests, it doesn't help the dog recognise a 'pattern' it can believe and trust in.

Cosmolo and Erny, I am a little concerned about your statements and whilst K9 agrees with you both, the major concern here is whether the initial trainer has actually diagnosed the dog correctly and has applied the correct technique. When it comes to teaching obedience tricks, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, however when dealing with aggression and severe behavioural problems, we don't have the luxury of this, worse still if the methodology/technique applied is not the correct one, the problem will worsen.

don't think trainers are completely blameless either - especially when an owner has access to many on a routine basis. They should be asking the owner what method they have been recommended, how long they've been trying it and whether they have been consistent in it. It's also helpful if the owner informs a trainer of this whether invited to or not.

Correct Enry, too many inexperienced or "green" trainers out there giving advice.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

Erny: I usually try to encourage people to "stick with it" and "work through it" if they can

Erny Neither one methodology might be incorrect, but as Cosmolo suggests, it doesn't help the dog recognise a 'pattern' it can believe and trust in.

Cosmolo and Erny, I am a little concerned about your statements and whilst K9 agrees with you both, the major concern here is whether the initial trainer has actually diagnosed the dog correctly and has applied the correct technique. When it comes to teaching obedience tricks, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, however when dealing with aggression and severe behavioural problems, we don't have the luxury of this, worse still if the methodology/technique applied is not the correct one, the problem will worsen.

Hi Kelpie-i. Both those quotes (above) are from me. I've adjusted accordingly for the purpose of this post.

I agree with your statement and concerns - and thank you for bringing them to attention as I was talking on the assumption that the "initial trainer" has made the correct diagnosis and has given a program that is something the owners can handle safely (for the owners and their dog's sake). I guess I was also speaking with "manageable" or less severe aggression in mind.

Of course, I should remember that readers can't be mind-readers and that assumptions can't be read - they leave loopholes for misinterpretation - something that does often happen here on DOL and many other internet communication sites. I usually try to avoid that, but in typing, omitted on this occasion. I did include "if they can" but that in itself is perhaps a bit of a flimsy and ambiguous statement.

It goes to follow that if I am the (eg) second trainer consulted for the problem but disagree with the initial diagnosis and/or treatment methodology, I will endeavour to take the time to explain - with diplomacy where possible and appropriate - my thoughts to the owner and why a different way might be more advantageous. Whether that "different way" means "different methodology"; "boarding/training" etc. etc.

With certain behaviour modification treatments, the liklihood of extinction bursts need to be taken into account and if the potential to prove dangerous to the owner is likely, then stepping in to lend a helping hand by boarding/training can certainly help and is something I will (and have) advise.

ETA: I hope this eleviates your concerns with my statements, Kelpie-i. As a training/behaviourist colleague I respect your thoughts and comments.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Kelpie-i. Both those quotes (above) are from me. I've adjusted accordingly for the purpose of this post.

Ooops, my bad!

[Kavik]

Just off topic for a sec.......sorry.

Is it common for a kelpie to be dog agressive and have "issues" with lots a stuff?

I'm not sure exactly how common it is - but I seem to be having problems with both my Kelpie and Kelpie cross, and know of a few others on and off this board as well.

Despite the fact that both the Kelpie and Kelpie cross had more exposure to other dogs in the critical socialisation period than my GSD, my GSD is the only one who is good around other dogs. The only thing that seems to make sense for me is that there is some genetic component there of reactivity.

[Kelpie-i]

Kavik

I have yet to meet a working bred kelpie who likes unfamiliar dogs...although I'm sure there are some out there. I think Jesomil's kelpie is good around other dogs, but then again most of the dogs from the Go-Getta lines are from what I see. Jesomil, please feel free to correct/add to this.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[ruthless]

That's funny. I've been told that Chopper looks like he might have a bit of Kelpie in him. Who knows though...

[Steve K9Pro]

K: Cosmolo and Erny, I am a little concerned about your statements and whilst K9 agrees with you both, the major concern here is whether the initial trainer has actually diagnosed the dog correctly and has applied the correct technique.

K9: I guess in this theoretical discussion we need to give the benefit of the doubt to the original diagnosis, & I think what makes me feel like that in the real world is that most trainers commonly tell me how they have clients that either wont put in the rwork or give up to soon.

K: When it comes to teaching obedience tricks, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, however when dealing with aggression and severe behavioural problems, we don't have the luxury of this, worse still if the methodology/technique applied is not the correct one, the problem will worsen.

K9: I call this a tricky one too, there are many ways to skin cats (train dogs), few are wrong, just some work better than others, but delayed results can be just as frustrating/defeating to those who are serious competitors as it can be to those trying to solve behaviour problems, sometimes even more.

To add to that, I will be the first to agree that there have been way to many under qualified people attempting to solve matters they simply should have referred on. There are many reasons for that but I personally feel this is changing.

I get so many trainers & instructors who bring me their dogs & or refer club members to me to help with things "outside heir expertise" it has to be a improvement over the way things were done even as little as 5 years ago.

I think that whe it comes to solving these problems, more solving is done by working with the owners than is done by working with the dog, & the working with the dog side sometimes is just to provide a visual picture to the owner, the real behaviour modification will take place a the hands of the owner over the coming weeks.

So when people come to see me & then write me emails or posts on DOL how wonderful the dog is after I have worked with them, full credit must go to them as they have uptaken the information I have given, put in the time & commitment & gained the results. The pats really need to be on their backs, not mine.

[Kavik]

Kelpie-i

I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse

Kaos is certainly better than Zoe, as Kaos can often go up and meet another dog as long as it is quiet, and he does seem to like other Kelpies and Border Collies. He is also better at ignoring other dogs. But he can be reactive, and is certainly not what I would say dog friendly in general. It really seems to depend on a few things. I don't take Zoe near other dogs anymore.