Heel Position

[wheres my rock]

we also do a lot of doodling in heeling holding position for small movements like a 360 or left turn with just a couple of steps

[ness]

Ok I have a bit of a follow on to this. Does your preference for heel position depending on whether "heel" is used strictly in a formal obedience trialling sense or whether you also require your dogs to heel during a normal walk rather than just walk without pulling when on lead (outside of training).

[MrsD]

Ok I have a bit of a follow on to this. Does your preference for heel position depending on whether "heel" is used strictly in a formal obedience trialling sense or whether you also require your dogs to heel during a normal walk rather than just walk without pulling when on lead (outside of training).

Not sure what you are asking, but for me, heel is heel, if I ask my dog to heel I expect it to be in the same position whether I am in the trial ring or walking down the street .

[ness]

Ah ok see I have a specific heel position which I reserve totally for training and in the ring. I would never ask for heel outside of that time. If I want her attention on a walk I might ask her to watch me as another dog walks past or something I might think is tempting for her but other than that she is free to sniff do whatever so long as she doesn't pull.

[leopuppy04]

Same here Ness. I *can* ask Leo to heel outside of the ring, but I rather not - it isn't a testament that he can't do it, but rather, I have high expectations of what a "heel" is and it would be tiring for him to do it in a busy street etc (not to mention with all the traffic)!

We have 3 types of walking:

"Lets Go" - go where you like, to the extent of the lead - it can be taut but don't pull me over.... and don't cross behind me! They can sniff and basically be a dog.

"With me" - I think this is Erny's type of heeling, perhaps a little more lax though..... You are to walk beside me, in a very small 'sweet spot' area. You do not need to watch me but you may not sniff or say hello to other dogs.

"heel" - I require 100% attention - you are to look up at me ALL times and trust me completely. I *want* them glued to my leg - but whether or not I achieve that is another story. You are to maintain that position until released no matter what I ask you to do .

Heel is complicated - it takes a looong time to build up to it. But the rewards I reap - I would do it for that alone. For me - heelwork is about trust. The dog must trust that by watching you - we won't lead them astray. We must also trust our dogs that they will maintain position etc. Heelwork for me is 'teamwork'..... both my dogs ADORE heeling .

[MrsD]

Ah ok see I have a specific heel position which I reserve totally for training and in the ring. I would never ask for heel outside of that time. If I want her attention on a walk I might ask her to watch me as another dog walks past or something I might think is tempting for her but other than that she is free to sniff do whatever so long as she doesn't pull.

To clarify, I dont make my dog heel everywhere when we are just out walking, but if I told him to heel, I would expect the same position in the ring or on the street. I do use it sometimes outside of the trial ring, but certainly not all the time.

[ness]

Yes its not that I couldn't ask for it its that I don't because like leopuppy said its so physically demanding.

Not saying you do MrsD but I do know of people here who insist there dogs heel for an entire walk - so therefore there definition of heel is somewhat loser than the precision behaviour that I want of my dog in the ring.

Never mind the fact that she throws precision heelwork at me on a walk anyway .

Edited May 22, 2007 by ness

[dogdude]

Same as MrsD.

If and when I use "heel", it is the same position, and I expect it done with the same focus.

The example given while walking past another dog in the street is the sought of practicle reason it was designed for. If on a walk normally, there is no command from me. I just expect him to pay me a "peripheral attention".

To me, having two commands for basically the same thing is a bit pointless.

I think trial training is pointless if you are not applying whatever you can into the real world. It also promotes the ringwise dog syndrome, and thats also why I would like to see some new exercises in trials, otherwise, a trial just becomes a bunch of tricks in sequence. That is not what was originally intended.

[JulesP]

I think the video clip is a little too extreme for me. The doggie must get a sore neck! I like them to look a little more natural than that. I did get told off for Brock being too far forward on the weekend, which has me a little stressed. He was in the shoulder/leg position. I was walking a little bit strangely due to breaking my tailbone the weekend before. I don't want to go in a trial and get told he is forging the whole time.

Anyone doing the shoulder/leg position been told off in a trial?

I don't ask for heeling at all when out on a walk. But I don't go anywhere that it is needed.

[ness]

Hey JulesP,

On the issue of forging one very easy way to tell if the dog is to far out is to try a turn. I find the u-turn left abouts virtually impossible if the dog gets to far ahead. Might give you some gauge as to whether he is to far out. If the dog can't hold a nice position on a turn then chances are he is forging to much.

Remember also in a trial you will get pinged less if the dog maintains a consistent position, so even if the dog is consistently slightly forward you might find your ok so long as the position is consistent.

Its a bit like a dog that consistently lags scores better then one who holds a good heel position in some stops and then lags in others or alternatively forges in spots.

Edited May 22, 2007 by ness

[JulesP]

Hey Ness, Didn't have any trouble with left turns. I've felt like he lags a bit so I have been working on getting him up more.

[ness]

Then I honestly probably wouldn't do anything to fix it and its probably not an issue. I know of a few very up dogs that end up dropping back slightly in the trial ring anyway. Its much better to have a dog working slightly forward then slightly behind. By law of averages they then end up roughly right in a trial .

Edited May 22, 2007 by ness

[JulesP]

Yep, that is my theory too! Especially if they are a bit sooky and worried.

[Arya]

Ok I have a bit of a follow on to this. Does your preference for heel position depending on whether "heel" is used strictly in a formal obedience trialling sense or whether you also require your dogs to heel during a normal walk rather than just walk without pulling when on lead (outside of training).

Good point Ness. I actually use the phrase 'walk with me' when I want my dog in the heel position when we are out walking on the street. And 'out the front' for loose lead walking, where she can go anywhere as long as she's not pulling or lagging behind The reason for this is I save 'heel' for special fun heeling in drive, for training and comp work. Tess doesn't like to have to walk beside me in a controlled fashion when out on the street, she'd rather be off sniffing. She does it cos she's obedient but I don't want to associate the word 'heel' with something that isn't high drive and fun. Just my little theory, anyway.

[Arya]

I like the dog's head to be tilted slightly to the right (ie checking in with where my leg is) and I like the dog to check-in by a glance up every now and then, but I am not keen on the continual nose being pointed upwards towards me continuously. I like a dog who is able to check-in on the environment ahead of us and provide me with warning should I be about to fall into a bottomless pit.

I agree Erny. This reminds me a bit of "Dancing with the Stars" when the female dancer is always looking backwards . This poor dog has no idea where it's going. I was always taught the dog's shoulder was to be in line with your left leg, and the dog should be focusing on you with no distration. I'm not sure about totally eye-balling you though . It doesn't look very relaxed does it.

I would love my Goldie to be just a little more focused than he is at the moment *sigh*.

Yes, but the dog is supposed to be giving you total focus when they are looking up at you with eyes locked on to your face/shoulder area, trusting you as their leader to be able to see where you are both going LOL! (Well, I've just been watching the Leerburg Bernhard Flinks dvd so I'm even worse about it now than I was before he he). I want the total eyeball as it's total concentration on behalf of the dog. But... it wouldn't work in the 'real' world walking down the street, would it. One of us would trip up and go A over T sooner or later LOL

[J...]

I like the style of heeling on the video - looks very impressive without the crowding. Darcy did it for the length of the ring off-lead the other day after a pretty hectic agility session so was very happy with her!! But only ever for short periods of time, i.e training and competition.

For everyday I expect loose lead walking on-lead, we also have a casual heel for walking down the street, and an off-lead heel which is stay within leads length - one of our walking spots has a blind corner, most of the time you can hear vehicles coming but I have her close by just in case!

[gsdog2]

But... it wouldn't work in the 'real' world walking down the street, would it. One of us would trip up and go A over T sooner or later LOL

I need a guide dog when we go for our walk around the street - there's waaayyy to many obstacles to trip over :D .

We have a flat collar and the lead has a waist attachment (hands free in case of falls ). I also use the command "working" when we're in training mode, on this command he will focus on me and the casual walk is over, it's time to concentrate.

[leopuppy04]

to add a tangent to this thread - just curious.....

who here enjoys heeling?

Who here has a dog that enjoys heeling???

if yes to both - how did you train it?

Edited May 23, 2007 by leopuppy04

[ness]

I got a dog that throws heeling at me - does that mean she enjoys it . I love heeling when she is pushing and working nicely .

[Dogs4Fun]

to add a tangent to this thread - just curious.....

who here enjoys heeling?

Who here has a dog that enjoys heeling???

if yes to both - how did you train it?

I enjoy heeling. There are so many bits of the behaviour to train. It is fascinating to watch the understanding develop.

My current training dog loves heeling. My older dogs will throw heeling at me when running free in the park, as they know it will nearly always get a reward, a pat, or a release to a toy.

I have trained heeling with my current dog with Dawn Jecks (spelling??) "Choose to Heel" method. Lots of rewards, lots of releases to toys. Simple things like asking a dog for a stationary heel position then throw a toy and release. Same on the move. This builds a fun element and gets a dog that pushes hard to get the position you are asking for. Up, forward and bouncy heeling.