Training In Drive Vs "bred For" Instincts

[J...]

Just something I've been thinking about for a few days since it was semi-referred to in another thread.

If you have a high drive dog bred for something specific i.e a kelpie, does the training in drive work satisfy that need to work or herd if you're doing something against what the dog is bred for? I.e is the dog going to be fully satisfied with training in drive, or is there going to be a small part of the dog thats "square peg in a round hole" kind of thing?

What about a "hard core" working dog like a working bred ACD?

Just curious to see what others thoughts are?

[jesomil]

I have been wondering the exact same thing and would also be interested in hearing peoples opinions.

[Working_Setters]

I doubt there is any activity that could replace hunting birds for my dogs, no matter how you trained it.

[Erny]

But I would suggest that training in drive (thereby offering drive satisfaction in one form or another) is better than not. Depending on how dominant or recessive the gene, it is possible that drive work (coupled with neutralisation) would have more hope of averting these instinctive behaviours. If you understand the dog and the propensity () for the behaviour, hard work at the beginning can certainly help. But genetics don't go away. They are always there.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Erny

[sidoney]

Working dog people I know who do or have done both agility and sheepwork tell me the dogs are much more serious about the sheepwork.

Still, it's much more difficult to access sheep than agility equipment in the 'burbs.

[Rom]

I think that training in drive comes in its best form when you find which drive your dog is stongest in and use that to mold the behaviours that you're looking for. I think its more about working with the instincts of the dog or as K9 says, find out what the dog is bringing to the table that you can work with, and depending on the dog, that might be pack drive rather than prey drive.

With the Kelpie as an example, the herding behaviours are basically prey drive behaviours, or those behaviours that are associated with hunting, chasing, catching and killing. Only Kelpies basically aren't allowed the kill, but most Kelpies just get drive satisfaction out of the out of the chase anyways i.e. they don't really need to get to the catching and killing in order to get drive satisfaction. (If I've worded that awkwardly I know the Kelpie owners will let me know )

If we are talking about working Kelpies on a farm, the farmer might have a few dogs of varying ages. The young less experienced dogs might lose their head at the slightest trigger that they might be going herding eg the farmer gets the ute out of the shed and maybe by some other signal, either intentional or not, the young dogs start barking and running in circles on their tie outs in anticipation of the herding experience. The older or more experienced dogs, whilst no less keen for the chase are calmer because they have learned that there is a routine involved with with getting ready to herd the cattle and anyways they have got wait to get the go ahead from the boss. So even though the older dogs are keen and focused because they also got the signal that they are going to get to chase, but they are not wasting energy until it really matters, but when they do use energy its a more efficient and focused use but no less enthusiastic than the younger dogs. The younger dogs on the other hand are getting frustrated cuz they haven't learned the routine and they are trying to solve the problem of getting the satisfaction as soon as they are triggered. The way that a younger dog tries to solve the problem is by throwing every thing he's got at it by way of speed, strength, noise...he's trying out everything he's got.

Now lets say instead of the routine of getting ready to go out to herd, after giving a trigger, we inserted obedience or agility exercises instead of say, loading the gear and the dogs on the ute, opening the appropriate gates and what ever else you do when you're getting ready to go out to herd. Then after the obedience or agility exercises we give the release to go and herd. Or in other words after you get the trigger, this is the routine we go through before you get the release to go and herd. In the case of a working dog living in town without a herd, he gets a ball thrown so he can satisfy that drive to chase.

Training in drive is basically mimicking the whole process that the young dog went through from the frustration stage to the calm, efficient, enthusiastic, focused stage of the older dog. But there's more to it than just throwing the ball as a reward and that's where learning about drive training from the pro's is invaluable.

I believe that drive training could be adapted to any positive drive in any dog. So I think that it opens up a whole lot more options. I don't think its an either or situation, and I think that it would actually help give all types of dogs a greater sense of calm because they have had their drives satisfied. I think that it is working with the instinct of the dog infront of you and showing it how to satisfy that instinct.

[sidoney]

IMO there is the quality of the drive satisfaction to think about. What "does it" for the dog. Is a ball (or other reward) going to satisfy the drive as effectively as herding sheep? (And is there a difference between dogs that have and have not worked sheep, in regards to the ball?)

Edited May 19, 2007 by sidoney

[Rom]

Oh....now I get it. I missed the intention of OP's question, didn't I....sorry

(not slow at all)

IMO there is the quality of the drive satisfaction to think about. What "does it" for the dog. Is a ball (or other reward) going to satisfy the drive as effectively as herding sheep? (And is there a difference between dogs that have and have not worked sheep, in regards to the ball?)

I guess that would be like me wondering with my hunting breed that if she'd had the opportunity to go on a real hunt, would the drive training still be as effective for her, or would she be as enthusiastic about it? Would she still have been able to maintain focus on me when the stray cat walked through our drop stay?

Mmmmmm....methinks not, well not with out a corresponding behavioural modification program and actively preventing her from getting satisfaction from real hunts. I guess then in time she'd build the focus and enthusiasm back if the drive training provided her only satisfaction for the drive. She has self triggered on wildlife before, but its always been in the situation where I could prevent her getting satisfaction from it.

But then we know that with dogs that don't get drive satisfaction, the need to satisfy the drive can overflow into destructive behaviours and the destructive behaviours decrease when we give drive satisfaction. Or, the dog actively seeks to find anything to do that will satisfy his drive. So I wonder if the answer lies in here somewhere? If with the herding breed for example, if herding was not an available option, does the dog revert back to frustration stage? And if it does, then if you give it an alternate form of drive satisfaction....no, he'd still trigger on sheep regardless (don't worry I think I just answered my own question ) wouldn't he? Or would sheep lose their power as a trigger overtime without drive satisfaction?

Edited May 19, 2007 by Rom

[Kavik]

This is a very good question and one that I am wondering myself. I have a feeling I will find out a lot more when Kaos gets to do a bit more herding and learns what it is all about.

I think it probably depends on the dog as well - its temperament and how driven it is, as well as what we choose to do with the dog.

[Working_Setters]

The ancestors of a good working dog have been selected primarily for their working desire and ability for 1000 generations, the impact of this genetic legacy is enormous, it shapes everything about the dog, from appearance and conformation to behaviour and thought processes. Training and environment can modified this underlying genetic base only so far.

If one of my dogs had gone to a non-hunting home would it be happy? If it were a good home with a skilled trainer, and the dog given appropriate mental and physical stimulation, in the form of agility for example, then yes the dog could be happy. But it would never be entirely fulfilled, would never approach agility with the same burning desire and intensity, the same “very reason for its existence” that it brings to hunting. If you selected a less appropriate activity, say Ob for example, giving the dog its mental stimulation, but denying it physical stimulation in the form large amounts of free running, then no I do not believe the dog would be happy. So IMO the activity you select to replace the original work is of huge importance also.

Of course many dogs today do not come from strictly working breeding programs, naturally the altered selection criteria of their ancestors alter the dog’s genetic legacy, often taking the edge off the dog’s desire to perform their original work. Such dogs maybe more “plastic” less driven to perform any one activity and more readily satisfied with a properly trained alternative activity?

[wheres my rock]

in my experience i trained my gsp in drive and she was amazing however when we started doing retriving training and retrieving trials she became much more settled in all her other work more focussed and consistent

i like to see dogs do what they were bred for within reason of course so a whippet should get to course and gundog to hunt a working dog to herd to some capacity

[Tonymc]

Some good input from everybody above me.

Quote from Working Setters

The ancestors of a good working dog have been selected primarily for their working desire and ability for 1000 generations, the impact of this genetic legacy is enormous, it shapes everything about the dog, from appearance and conformation to behaviour and thought processes. Training and environment can modified this underlying genetic base only so far.

If one of my dogs had gone to a non-hunting home would it be happy? If it were a good home with a skilled trainer, and the dog given appropriate mental and physical stimulation, in the form of agility for example, then yes the dog could be happy. But it would never be entirely fulfilled, would never approach agility with the same burning desire and intensity, the same “very reason for its existence” that it brings to hunting. If you selected a less appropriate activity, say Ob for example, giving the dog its mental stimulation, but denying it physical stimulation in the form large amounts of free running, then no I do not believe the dog would be happy. So IMO the activity you select to replace the original work is of huge importance also.

My thoughts exactly. tony

[Vickie]

If you have a high drive dog bred for something specific i.e a kelpie, does the training in drive work satisfy that need to work or herd if you're doing something against what the dog is bred for? I.e is the dog going to be fully satisfied with training in drive, or is there going to be a small part of the dog thats "square peg in a round hole" kind of thing?

What about a "hard core" working dog like a working bred ACD?

I'm not sure I really understand the question, so these are my random thoughts...

I think a key point for herding dogs & some other dogs bred for instinct is that often part of their instinct is their desire to work with the handler, their biddability if you like. I think it is this pack drive that satisfies a lot of our working bred dogs.

I'm not sure whether I train in drive or not?...but I know that my dog is obsessed with a tennis ball & she will do anything for it. I know that she is intense in agility, trembles in anticipation of going into the ring & goes almost as fast as she possibly can while in there. I think she has a heap of drive for both, but it is different to what she has on sheep. I think she would be happy with the "work" & stimulation I give her without herding. It's not like she is ever going to go in the agility ring, thinking "yeah this is fun but I'd rather be on sheep".

In agility, everything she knows I have taught her, she has been completely reliant on me to communicate what is right & what is not. She is not perfect b/c I am not perfect. There are things we could do better. I have control over how much speed she has & how tight her turns are. Her willingness to please means that if I were too tough on her, I think I could reduce her enthusiasm.

On sheep, she knows more than I do. I could never in a million years teach her to read sheep better than she could teach me. It would be extremely hard to shut her down on sheep and hard to make her mechanical, her instinct is just too strong, since the reward is the work itself.

Where I think people can fail with "formal training in drive" is that unless they are proficient, they're going to make mistakes & each mistake will actually reduce drive a little...the opposite of the effect they are trying to achieve. I don't think this is as true of instinct activities as the rewards are often external to us & when the human aspect is removed so are the errors.

I see lots of people now putting off training for an activity until they are happy with their drive work. It's great if you get it right...but if you don't I wonder if you would have a better result just getting in there & doing the activity, knowing that it in itself will be rewarding to the dog.

Not sure if any of ths makes sense...

Vickie, Master Rambler

[Kelpie-i]

Hey great question and answers.....

Put quite simply the dogs see it as this (and I refer to herding breeds only!!):

Training in drive = games & fun/drive satisfaction

Herding = work/instinct satisfaction

The two are different and we should remember not to confuse drives with working instinct.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Rom]

Found a definition of drive that might give another angle to the question:

An instinctive motivation that has been modified by experience.

[Kelpie-i]

Correct Rom, the instinctive motivation is survival. In order to survive, a predator (in this case the dog) needs to hunt, hence prey drive which is then modified by either revolution or man to suit whatever job we required from the dog.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Kelpie-i