Will She Indicate, Should She Indicate?

[Cosmolo]

Hi Jeff- yes she had a find on normal basil first and last. I was running her so the OH put the targets and non targets out. The targets we have are all different in terms of the strength of the basil smell- anything from a whole jar with basil in it to a dvd case that either has a tiny amount of basil or a larger amount on and then removed completely- i can still smell the basil after it is gone, the stuff stinks!

We are having one problem though. Last night we hid a target in our aquarium cupboard which has 2 doors. The target was hidden in the right door and the dog has come along and indicated as she got to the left door. She wasn't working particularly well and we weren't convinced she was actually smelling the target, looked more like she was indicating because something had been there last time. BUT, how do we know for sure- to reward or not to reward? Or give a show me command?

[DeadWombat]

We are having one problem though. Last night we hid a target in our aquarium cupboard which has 2 doors. The target was hidden in the right door and the dog has come along and indicated as she got to the left door. She wasn't working particularly well and we weren't convinced she was actually smelling the target, looked more like she was indicating because something had been there last time. BUT, how do we know for sure- to reward or not to reward? Or give a show me command?

I don't think you can ever be absolutely sure, but you can certainly make an educated guess. It is possible that the odour was escaping at that point from the cupboard and hence that is where the dog indicated.

I'd look at improving the dogs ability to pinpoint the target prior to indication. (dog seeks out actual target rather than just odour) I'm not sure how you've progressed the dog to this point but this could be the result of failing to reward the dog for indicating at the source of the odour.

For instance, during initial imprinting you may have simply cued the sit response everytime the dog encountered the target odour to build an association between the scent and the response. Over time I'd up the ante and start asking the dog to locate the source of the odour before offering an indication. I'd then expect the dog to show intense interest at the cupboard door (my cue to open it) and then offer a response once it had located the actual source of the odour.

It may seem like splitting hairs but lets assume you're out conducting a building search looking for smuggled Basil. :D There is a draft running through the building and your dog passes through the scent cone while searching and promptly sits in the middle of the room. You then need to assess the breeze/possible scent pools/shadows, location etc... and lead the dog in that direction or follow it up manually. If your dog is trained to locate the source of the odour prior to indication it would continue the search until the item itself was located. This is an extreme example but the area of most available scent is not always where the actual item is located, so it's important the dog locate the source of the odour rather than just the odour alone.

From what you've written, I'd be inclined to take the training back a step and teach the dog to locate the source of the odour before offering an indication. Then at least you'll be able to more accurately identify what the dog is responding to.

Hope this makes sense.

[Cosmolo]

Yes that did make sense. I do think we did do that in her early training, particularly with the interest, opening cupboard/ draw to find the source. So, when she does indicate slightly away from the source would you reward or always require that she finds the source before the reward comes? Or do you think that this would never happen if the initial training is correct?

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 10, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[k9phoenix]

I always reward verbally for a positive response, then ask for a "show me" to locate exact odor. Buffys "show me" (for example) consists of a pinpoint with her nose, then a flip finish to recieve full reward whilst I or someone else goes in to investigate - I need her out of the way of those nasty toads!!! Good luck - scent training is sooo much fun, Im not sure exactly where you are in your training but I remember having a similar problem towards the end of the training phase, it was my own fault as I was second guessing her, I spoke to a very experience detection trainer who had one simple question for me, he asked "dont you trust your training sarah??"

[Cosmolo]

What are the advantages of a praise off over a show me? I have never heard of or used a praise off so thanks for the explanation clicking mad.

WA dingo trainer- i wonder if you spoke to the same people i have because thats the exact question i was asked, followed by "trust your dog"!!

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 10, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[k9phoenix]

Ok, as I stated cane toad detection is lot different to non-moving scent work. I often work her in strange areas and a "show me" (whilst not all that particularly useful in other areas of SD) is useful in this area. For example, dried creek beds - there are so many places for the odor to escape that it is possible for her to indicate several metres from the source - so, she is verbally rewarded and razzed up, then asked to "show me" the point of strongest odor, I do still reward if nothing is found as I trust my dog and my training - just because there is no toad doesnt mean there wasnt (and in areas where there shouldnt be toads, this information is very useful), also, the toad may be there but be inaccessable (ie: when they hide in the banks of creeks up under large tree roots). There are times when a show me isnt required - like if Im simply asking her to verify to me its a toad, not a native frog (sometimes its hard to tell in the dark :D) or if she finds one that is visable apon investigation. The main use "show me" is when I am unable to locate the toad. Hope that made sense - my mind is in another place today!

[Cosmolo]

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for that explanation WA dingo trainer- can i ask how often you are asked to find toads? Do you get called out f people think they have spotted one or do you routinely need to search certain areas/ things? Just out of curiousity, Clicking Mad- do you train scent detection for a particular purpose or just for fun?

I was very proud of my girl the other day, we did our first session in one of her favourite parks which i thought would make it quite difficult for me to switch her on. I shouldn't have worried- she was even better out than she is at home and found her last target hidden in a clump of very dense bush!! There were distractions of dogs and children around and she couldn't have cared less- she was as easy to switch on as she is at agility- and thats saying something!! Clever little Cosmo dog..

[k9phoenix]

Cosmolo, I dont work her in the wet season, just the dry - we havent been up for a couple of months now (although recently I had a purchase offer but shes NOT for sale!!!) I was hoping to get up there in the next month of so again but after yesterday she may be out of action for a while :D I cant really go into much more detail right now as we are currently in the process of negotiations :wink:

ETA : Dont you get on a real high after your first distraction training session goes off better than expected!!!!! - Well done!

Edited May 30, 2007 by WA_dingo_trainer

[Cosmolo]

Hope everything works out okay for your dog/s WADT. I find what you do fascinating- i think dogs noses can be put to so many uses that we haven't even considered yet!

I was on a real high- i couldn't believe how easily she switched on- found everything no problem. I get more excited now because i remember how difficult she was as a puppy, so everything seems sooo much easier now! Doing scent detection with a 12 week old pup (passed her assessment at about 6 months) was not easy!

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 10, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[.................]

I work with AQIS in the active (dig response) dog unit, based at the mail center, Jeff Smith is my boss (hope he isn't too embarrassed by what I've said here :D )

Embarrassed?

Nope.

Bemused that you're spending the first day of your holidays thinking about work?

Oh yeah!!!

[Lablover]

removed.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Lablover

[zacygirl]

This is just a bit of fun to see what you think before i test it out..

One of my dogs has been doing some scent detection training with the odour she indicates on being the herb basil. She has just started doing room searches, is doing well and is very reliable.

Here is my question-i am about to get out a face cream product that has real basil in it- will the dog indicate AND should she indicate?

Obviously the quarantine dogs are trained to ignore such a thing but i would think that they do indicate on it to begin with, get no reward and LEARN that it holds no reward for them.

they should indicate if it's real basil; and not indicate if the basil is synthetic. No harm if you blind reward it, but unless you want to look for basil in cosmetics I wouldn't re-present and reward, but if she responds to it in future I wouldn't correct her because it's essentially right.

[Lablover]

Thanks for that WADT

Yeh, I agree different scent work requires different methods.

I work with AQIS in the active (dig response) dog unit, based at the mail center, Jeff Smith is my boss (hope he isn't too embarrassed by what I've said here )

This is the 1st day of my holidays, due to fly OS in a week, and I'm thinking about work On days off I often catch myself thinking about things that I can do when I get back to work to improve areas of my dogs' performance. So you could say I do it for fun

But, no more thinking about it now, gotta get away

I also worked for Customs DDU for a year and a half with a passive (sit response) passenger airport based dog

for Cosmo

Between AQIS and Customs DDU, who had the better quality dogs?

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 10, 2008 by Clicking Mad