Will She Indicate, Should She Indicate?

[Cosmolo]

This is just a bit of fun to see what you think before i test it out..

One of my dogs has been doing some scent detection training with the odour she indicates on being the herb basil. She has just started doing room searches, is doing well and is very reliable.

Here is my question-i am about to get out a face cream product that has real basil in it- will the dog indicate AND should she indicate?

Obviously the quarantine dogs are trained to ignore such a thing but i would think that they do indicate on it to begin with, get no reward and LEARN that it holds no reward for them.

[leopuppy04]

Obviously the quarantine dogs are trained to ignore such a thing but i would think that they do indicate on it to begin with, get no reward and LEARN that it holds no reward for them.

I would think that they 'should' indicate, but as to whether they will or not I am not sure as i'm not well versed on scent detection.

May I ask why quarantine dogs are trained to ignore? What if some drugs were mixed in with another substance? Would that fool the dogs?

Serious question as I don't know anything about scent detection

[ness]

My thoughts were she should indiciate on it presuming you have taught her to indiciate to whatever lower odour level then that contained within the cream and secondly that there isn't something in the cream that would sufficiently mask the basil odour. Oh and thirdly that the REAL basil contained in the cream is of the same make and nature as that which the dog was trained with .

[Cosmolo]

LP- hopefully Jeff smith will come along to correct me if i'm wrong but i was under the impression that quarantine dogs had to differentiate alot between those sorts of things- remember its not drugs that they're detecting and if there is a animal/ plant product mixed with something else, it would usually have undergone processing of some sort. They can't have quarantine dogs indicating on apple scented toiletries etc.

Drug dogs are different and would be trained to indicate on minute quantities of the odour, mixed with other things or not.

[leopuppy04]

LP- hopefully Jeff smith will come along to correct me if i'm wrong but i was under the impression that quarantine dogs had to differentiate alot between those sorts of things- remember its not drugs that they're detecting and if there is a animal/ plant product mixed with something else, it would usually have undergone processing of some sort. They can't have quarantine dogs indicating on apple scented toiletries etc.

Drug dogs are different and would be trained to indicate on minute quantities of the odour, mixed with other things or not.

ok - thanks Cosmo - makes sense - you wouldn't really want to be pulled aside and the worst thing you had in your case was 'apple scented' toiletries

Another question? Is it a constant reward system or do you use intermittent rewards?

[Cosmolo]

Constant- always constant. My girl is trained to give a passive indication- ie, sit at the target as the quarantine dogs do. but has a combination of passive and active reward- food and tug/ dummy. We use a verbal marker and no reward mark too- no physical or verbal corrections ever but will deny her the opportunity to work/ earn rewards if she is just messing around.

[Cosmolo]

Come on guys, have a guess.. i will be testing tonight!

[.................]

Here is my question-i am about to get out a face cream product that has real basil in it- will the dog indicate AND should she indicate?

And here I was safely lurking in the shadows during my lunch break.

The short answer is Yes, she should indicate but there's a host of reasons why she may not and several why you should think carefully before going ahead.

I'd be looking back over my training history (of course you keep one, don't you?) to see what presentations the dog has been exposed to in the past. (dry, fresh, oils...etc) and has there been any planned progression from single target odour indications to discrimination in the presence of competing/masking odours?

You need to remember that the dog is smelling the entire scent picture, so the first time the dog is exposed to a more complex scent picture, (target odour and masking/competing odour like basil in handcream) you would not expect the indication to be at 100%.

If on the otherhand you'd built up to this presentation with plain face cream and basil in seperate presentations then hidden together and then combined together. You could probably expect a much clearer and confident indication.

I'd suggest caution with targets of this type especially with a newer dog as it's discrimination capabilities will still be developing. Anytime you give a reward to an undefined or mixed scent picture you run the risk of creating false response issues further down the track. (eg, dog now responds to plain face cream)

The presentation you're planning paints a complex picture for the dog and while it will be very easy to teach her to respond to the basil face cream, you'll also need to ensure that she is capable of discriminating between the competing odours before you could say with any certainty that the dog is only indicating to the basil.

So that's my version of a short answer, If it was a working dog that I planned on using for serious detection work I'd be planning my attack on this very carefully. If on the other hand I was just mucking about with one of my dogs at home, I'd be like a Nike ad and "Just Do It." See what happens and deal with any fallout later.

Goodluck.

Jeff

[Pippi]

OK I'll have a guess. I would think that the dog should indicate. If the dog is sufficiently trained to scent on basil, then it should pick up on any amount of basil whether small or large. Whether the dog will or not , I imagine would be totally dependent on their level of training. You sound confident Cosmolo, so I'll guess that the dog will indicate......

[Cosmolo]

I was hoping you would reply Jeff- you make some excellent points. We're not training for any kind of professional work, doing it because both we and the dog really enjoy it. But, in saying that i'm sure i'll alter one or two of the things i was going to do based on what you've said. Jeff, could you clarify whether quarantine dogs would indicate on such an item?

If anyone would like some dangerous basil detected in their herb garden, we'll be available for hire soon!

[.................]

Jeff, could you clarify whether quarantine dogs would indicate on such an item?

Yes and No...

The dogs are expected to distinguish between things like apple flavoured soap and real apples and even between black tea with citrus flavouring v/s black tea with citrus pieces.

We come across a lot of cosmetics with flavourings or scents which would be considered a target on thier own (in true form), wheather the dog will or should respond to the item will depend on how processed/altered the item is in the cosmetic itself. Relatively intact basil for instance would get an indication while highly processed or just basil flavouring would not.

This is a skill that takes time and targeted training to achieve, (we never stop training) and one of the reasons I suggested caution in introducing this type of item early in the dogs development.

Sorry for the muddled answer but there really are very few simple questions or answers when it comes to scent work.

[Kavik]

Well Jeff's explanation was much better and thorough than mine could ever have been

So I will just say I am glad I am not the only one who used a herb for scent detection work (I used mint).

[Erny]

They can't have quarantine dogs indicating on apple scented toiletries etc.

Know of a story retold where a dog at the airport "hit" on a piece of luggage. Asked of the owner whether the luggage contained fruit - "no". The dog "hit" on this same piece of luggage in the three runs the handler gave. Turns out the luggage contained apple-flavoured condoms. ETA:

Edited May 15, 2007 by Erny

[Jeff Jones]

Here is my question-i am about to get out a face cream product that has real basil in it- will the dog indicate AND should she indicate?

Yes too both.

Drug dogs are different and would be trained to indicate on minute quantities of the odour, mixed with other things or not

That is correct, probably the most commonly used practice by people trying to mask the smell of drugs is by having the drugs stored in a container of coffee beans and mint leaves.

Neither product work in masking the scent though

[Clicking Mad]

...

Edited January 10, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[Cosmolo]

I will tes t it tomorrow- have been flat out so no chance today.. Will post as soon as i've done it!

[Tangwyn]

Jeff Smith,

Do you conduct training exercises using mixed presentations of target and non-target odours?

Edited May 16, 2007 by Tangwyn

[.................]

Yep, but more as proofing exercises than actual training.

C'mon Cosmolo, what happened?

[Cosmolo]

Sorry- forgot all about posting the update! We tried it out on Friday and while she showed quite alot of interest in it, she didn't indicate. It was interesting to see her body language change and i was actually pleased that she gave it a really thorough 'sniff' before deciding what she should do. It wasn't hidden in a room search just left on the floor.

She was dynamite on the normal basil in the room searches though, now completely hidden targets in draws etc are not a problem- just need to teach her how to search a bit more independently and find/ indicate on targets that are out of her reach. We have been asked to use her for a demo at a country pet expo thats being planned for next year, so its more than just a bit of fun now!

[Jeff Jones]

Just a few questions

Did you give her a find on the normal basil first? or last? or not at all?

who laid the basil cream down for her to find?

With the searches of normal basil used, have you increased and decreased the amount of basil used between scenarios?