Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 K9: No I dont mind at all... It used to be the program I designed for just working dogs, but in the last 5 years its become just about standard that I recommend for every pup. The environment we have in Australia is such that trying to complete the "generic" solialisation steps is very risky to a pup as there are many aggressive dogs out there. The chances of you creating a positive value is much less than you creating a negative (fearful) value.. Teaching your dog to have a high value for other dogs is like (IMO) growing weeds that you will only have to pull later on if ou want any sort of off leash reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Here is a question for k9/ neutralisation fans- If the dog has a neutral value and at a later date has a negative experience with X thing, isn't it easier and more likely that they will fall into the negative side of the scale/ form a negative association at that point than a well socialised dog who has a positive value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 K9: No I dont mind at all...It used to be the program I designed for just working dogs, but in the last 5 years its become just about standard that I recommend for every pup. The environment we have in Australia is such that trying to complete the "generic" solialisation steps is very risky to a pup as there are many aggressive dogs out there. The chances of you creating a positive value is much less than you creating a negative (fearful) value.. Teaching your dog to have a high value for other dogs is like (IMO) growing weeds that you will only have to pull later on if ou want any sort of off leash reliability. Thanks K9, thats why I just posted the link, I knew I wouldn't be able to explain it as clearly as you can. I was counting on you to jump into this thread.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 C: Here is a question for k9/ neutralisation fans- If the dog has a neutral value and at a later date has a negative experience with X thing, isn't it easier and more likely that they will fall into the negative side of the scale/ form a negative association at that point than a well socialised dog who has a positive value? K9: In a word, no. Your looking at it with too much practicality, like 0 is closer to - 4 for eg... The dog doesnt know that... lol.. The dogs temperament develops like a picture, once the picture is developed it is pretty much bomb proof, I use my male GSD is the decoy for hundreds of aggessive dogs in consults, never changed him one bit... I would not do this for a dog under 2 years old though, picture is not fully develped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 P: Thanks K9, thats why I just posted the link, I knew I wouldn't be able to explain it as clearly as you can. I was counting on you to jump into this thread.. K9: sounds like an evil plan... lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I kept Kaos separate from the others for while, now he runs with Diesel and Zoe is separate. I tried the neutralisation thing with Kaos, think I managed to bugger it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 K: I tried the neutralisation thing with Kaos, think I managed to bugger it up K9: & I guess that is easy when just reading it here, as we all know the threads are meant to be a guide only. When I have people bring me a pup or even do my Distance Learning Package (Raising a puppy the right way), they seem to do really well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I'll talk to you in depth about it on Saturday, maybe you can help me out with it. Argh, Kelpies can be frustrating, so much more difficult than Diesel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 K9: You betcha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I've always kept the dogs together. Part of the reason I have 2 dogs is for the dog's sake so it would defeat that purpose to not let them be together. Their wellbeing comes before any competition aims I might have and I believe they are happier together. I have never had issues with injuries but none of them have been very rowdy. I have also not had any problems with them wanting to be with the other dog rather than with me. They have all been very focused on me, maybe that is a breed thing. When out they pretty much stay with me even when off lead. When at home they are always watching to see where I am. I don't let them socialise much at dog school as I don't want them to think of that as a place to play and do their own thing. So maybe I have neutralised them without realising it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I'm more of a keep the pup seperate person. When I got Ella I kept her apart from Astro (the foster I had at the time) for a lot of the time. I did give them some time together but never when I wasn't around and I would vary the amount of time with Astro depending on how Ella was responding to me. Now that I only have Ella its easier, its just the OH that I need to keep away from Ella - she has a very high positive value for him!!! In the past I always allowed my dogs to be together but as someone else mentioned the second dog bonded really well with the first dog and it was difficult to work her sometimes. Not that she wasn't bonded with me but I would have liked more from her. Hence why this time round I montiored the amount of time spent with each other very carefully. I will also be neutralising my next puppy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chell Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I kept the neutralisation concept in mind for my new young rotty pup but figured I probably couldnt do it 100% but have used the concept to some degree. They all have seperate time, seperate training but are also allowed to play with supervision. I will also often call her to me in the middle of her playing with my big rotty boy or playing with the kids and reward her with a toy or a food treat. She has reliably done this since 10 weeks once she learnt the command and will start with proofing it outside the home once she gets a bit older. We attended puppy pre-school with her too but un-intentionally this served to be more of a neutralisation experience for her than socialisation, she chose to pay attention to me and observe more of what was going on rather than join in on the playing. She was far from scared of the other pups and did have a little play at times over the 3 weeks but she chose to watch me instead probably hoping for more rewards from doing that than what the other pups had to offer. K9, would you say that makes her more pack driven than say the other pups were?? I must say i much prefer her to be this way as she will also be a working girl like her big brother. By teaching her to focus on me earlier than i did him I can see already that it will be easier in some areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) I dont have much experience in this area as i only have 2 dogs. Nova was raised by himself, and never really put much 'value' on other dogs. He would now much rather do his own thing then play with other dogs. Due to Novas stand offishness my two dogs havent bonded as much as most dogs raised together, as Darcy was raised with Nova pretty much with him the entire way. Darcy though places a little too much value on other dogs then i want. Both dogs are fine seperated for hours on end and they are outside dogs so they dont really know if we are home or not. My next dogs i will be trying out K9 Forces way. Reading through the other thread, i sound like a hypocrite :D Ive just been better educated so my opinion has changed ;) Edited May 15, 2007 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Bringing dogs up separeted from other dogs isnt a new concept and many people do it. I find that those that are serious about trialing or those that do IPO do it. The breeder of my girl never brings up her puppies with older dogs, the puppy grows up in his/her own pen for as long as possible, a year ideal. And althought she doesnt trial any more she has had some serius wins in the ob rings in the past and anyoen will tell you that her dogs are the most obedient dobes around the show ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) What I will do (ie socialise or neutralise) when I get my next pup will depend completely upon its temperament and also what I want to use the dog for. Either way, I will be aiming closer to neutralisation. Whether that be the "zero" factor or not, I will determine at the appropriate time. ;) ETA: So as to remain "on topic" (:D sorry to the OP) ..... either way, I'd separate a puppy from the mature dogs. For safety reasons. You'd also want to consider if there are any behaviours you DON'T want your puppy to learn off the others. Edited May 15, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 ETA: So as to remain "on topic" (:D sorry to the OP) ..... either way, I'd separate a puppy from the mature dogs. For safety reasons. You'd also want to consider if there are any behaviours you DON'T want your puppy to learn off the others. Or for the older dog to learn off the puppy I think Kinta taught Leo (or re-taught) things that he 'thought' were naughty (and were!).... talk about 2nd puppyhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Chell: K9, would you say that makes her more pack driven than say the other pups were?? K9: Possibly, or possibly ou created a great bond with her before you attended puppy school which developed her pack drive for you before other dogs... ********************* Socialisation setting the values to zero is nothing knew, no one said it was. ******************** Some prefer to run their pups with older "trained" dogs to learn from them. As the older "trained" dogs wont have the same goal for the puppy as I do, there is room for error... So I prefer to teach everything myself.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 You should see my old dog K9, she is a classic! She does tend to tell pup off for things that I have told him off for, like chewing the hose and being too rowdy with visitors. Then it is just things like not jumping fences. I have farm height fences and they could easily jump out but it just doesn't seem to occur to them to do it. And staying on their beds when in the house. Pup sees older dog is happy to stay on bed so pup stays put too. I haven't had two young dogs at the same time yet though. So I imagine that would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 You should see my old dog K9, she is a classic! She does tend to tell pup off for things that I have told him off for, like chewing the hose and being too rowdy with visitors. Then it is just things like not jumping fences. I have farm height fences and they could easily jump out but it just doesn't seem to occur to them to do it. And staying on their beds when in the house. Pup sees older dog is happy to stay on bed so pup stays put too. I haven't had two young dogs at the same time yet though. So I imagine that would be different. K9: even when they are neutralised its much the same thing, the higher ranking dog will correct the lower ranking ne just after I do. & this is good at that time, as long as the lower pack mamber isnt a pup thats getting told off twice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 If she has told him off I don't tell him off as well. Sometimes I tell her to tell him off instead of me doing it! She likes to think she has a job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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