Obedience Trialling - Question On Stays

[KismetKat]

I'm curently in the triallers class with my doggy school (thanks Dogsdot who talked me into in ). And I have a question about the stays.

I got ticked off as 'not doing my dog a favour' by signalling to her that she was in a 'stay' by standing with my hands behind me. The gist of what I was told was that hands in front would be Ok for a recall as then the dog would know to expect a recall, but hands behind showed I meant business about staying put.

Jeesh! Who is in the 'stay' - me or the dog????

I proof my dogs stays in practice by wandering around, picking up imaginery things, taking phantom phone calls on my mobile and (if the park is ENTIRELY empty) doing the hokie pokie!

What is the point the teaching your dog the 'stay' command if to get it complied with one must also stand still as if they have a broom stick rammed up their nether regions?

I note there is no rule in the VCA handbook that says a handler can't do the hokie pokie whilst in the groups stays. But I bet if I did that in a trial my name would be mud across the entire country.

I'm losing interest in trialling as it seems to me it has little to do with 'real' control over your dog.

Am I wrong to be getting this opinion?

[KOE]

Depends on the trainer I suppose. But I would not like to have my hands behind my back either when you learn the recall you dont stand with arms by your side or folded so I cant see why you can not stand however.

[stephenb]

I'm curently in the triallers class with my doggy school (thanks Dogsdot who talked me into in ). And I have a question about the stays.

I got ticked off as 'not doing my dog a favour' by signalling to her that she was in a 'stay' by standing with my hands behind me. The gist of what I was told was that hands in front would be Ok for a recall as then the dog would know to expect a recall, but hands behind showed I meant business about staying put.

Jeesh! Who is in the 'stay' - me or the dog????

I proof my dogs stays in practice by wandering around, picking up imaginery things, taking phantom phone calls on my mobile and (if the park is ENTIRELY empty) doing the hokie pokie!

What is the point the teaching your dog the 'stay' command if to get it complied with one must also stand still as if they have a broom stick rammed up their nether regions?

I note there is no rule in the VCA handbook that says a handler can't do the hokie pokie whilst in the groups stays. But I bet if I did that in a trial my name would be mud across the entire country.

I'm losing interest in trialling as it seems to me it has little to do with 'real' control over your dog.

Am I wrong to be getting this opinion?

I agree with you entirely that once a dog does a stay it is neccessary to proof it. In our advanced classes we return past our dogs, walk over them, have the instructor walk around them, all handlers go for a walk around the other dogs at the same time.

In a trial I don't see any point in pushing your luck but training should be about finding and extending the limits.

If obedience is getting a bit of a bore, keep it up but give agility a go as well. It is great fun for you and your dog if you don't take yourself too seriously.

[MrsD]

I'm curently in the triallers class with my doggy school (thanks Dogsdot who talked me into in :p). And I have a question about the stays.

I got ticked off as 'not doing my dog a favour' by signalling to her that she was in a 'stay' by standing with my hands behind me. The gist of what I was told was that hands in front would be Ok for a recall as then the dog would know to expect a recall, but hands behind showed I meant business about staying put.

Jeesh! Who is in the 'stay' - me or the dog????

I proof my dogs stays in practice by wandering around, picking up imaginery things, taking phantom phone calls on my mobile and (if the park is ENTIRELY empty) doing the hokie pokie!

What is the point the teaching your dog the 'stay' command if to get it complied with one must also stand still as if they have a broom stick rammed up their nether regions?

I note there is no rule in the VCA handbook that says a handler can't do the hokie pokie whilst in the groups stays. But I bet if I did that in a trial my name would be mud across the entire country.

I'm losing interest in trialling as it seems to me it has little to do with 'real' control over your dog.

Am I wrong to be getting this opinion?

Sorry KK, are you saying that the club are telling you standing with your hands behind your back is a good idea or bad idea?

The rules state that any unusual movement or noise by the handler may be considered an extra command or signal. So no, you may not do the hokey pokey in the stays ;) .

[KismetKat]

MrsD - they are suggesting I stand with my hands behind my back for stays, and in front for recalls.

The rules state that any unusual movement or noise by the handler may be considered an extra command or signal. So no, you may not do the hokey pokey in the stays .

I'd like to see a dog 'trained' where the hokie pokie is a 'reinforcement' of a stay

[wheres my rock]

we did the time warp in stays at club once once very funny

might try the hokie pokie and the nutbush

i stand hands in front for recall but for stays im bad i rest one leg and just hadn my hands by me sides sometimes i stick my thumbs in my pockets very relaxed

the behind the back is old school rofl

[J...]

Some of the things I've been picked up for in stays (training) are pushing my glasses back up my nose, catching my hat before it blew off in a sudden gust of wind and shooing flies.... quite amazing that anyone would even try to use such things as an extra signals but again it comes down to that line in the sand that makes it black and white....

[PAX]

When you do stays in trials you are NOT to move at all. Some judges will even tell you that if a bee lands on you do not move. At each trail (in the lower levels) the judge will usually tell you what they expect but the general idea is, however you are when you turn around to face your dog is how you must stay for the duration of the stays.

I have been is group stays where people have been clearing their throats and making all sorts of noises that I would of pinged if I was the judge. Every judge is different but in general they don't want to see or hear anything that could of been trained to be a second siganl.

The great thing about Open stays is you can do what you like when out of sight.

[MissMonaro]

When I do stay exercises I stand with my hands by my side. Recall I stand with my hands clasped in front as because I do train with food, the object is the dog will come straight in to where my hands are clasped in front of me.

It was just something I was told to do to differentiate between a stay and a recall exercise. I know some ppl use a stay command for stay and a wait for the recall...but cos I have always trained using "stay" this is just one thing I do.

However in training we do all the things like walk around the dogs, walk past them, walk over them (although mine does not like this), squat in front of them, do star jumps or jump up and down on the spot...and also do another where on lead we pull on the lead gently reinforcing the stay command as well. Sometimes the instructor will chuck a ball in front of them all (thats tough on the retrievers... )

Edited May 13, 2007 by MissMonaro

[wheres my rock]

i love open stays a chance for a quick nap i remeber a few years ago in ud doign satys we had an old guy with us wehn we returned he shold have been on the end of the line no one noticed that he was still napping in a chai behind the hide that was in the days when everyone used to joke around in the hide and we'd get told of for making to much nois

these days they'd probabaly nq the whole class for even muttering

[Tibbiemax71]

In recalls I stand with my hands clasped in front as I also food train and hopefully the dog will come in nice and straight to my hands, in stays I have hands behind my back, its just what our club has taught me and now becomes second nature, we do a lot of proofing exercises in training, instructor will walk up to the heel position of a dog and step off, walking in front of and behind them, stopping in front of them and looking at them etc.

[leopuppy04]

KK - while I do understand *entirely* what you are saying, I still do agree with your instructor. When I am in trialling class I stand with my hands in front for the recall/ distance position or anything that you will be asking your dog to do something and when I do stays, I put my hands behind my back and also alter my standing position . I have a variety of reasons for this.

I used to have my hands in front which was 'fine and dandy' until my dog kept breaking his stays...... I get v-e-r-y nervous while trialling and can do a variety of 'wrong' things such as stare at my dog or something ridiculous which can set him on tenterhooks. So I find the best way for us to succeed is for me to do the stays with my hands behind my back. Having said that however, obviously my dog won't be able to see where my hands are once we get into open!! LOL!

But I do agree with you that the 'obedience stay' just as the 'obedience recall' shouldn't be the 'be all and end all' coz lets face it - if it was, our dogs would be terribly disobedient! When we want them to come back we aren't exactly going to have them in a sit-wait..... they are more likely to be chasing other dogs/ rabbits etc ;). Likewise, if I ask my dog to 'stay' I'm not always going to be standing there in front of him like a stunned mullett or someone with a pole up their ass (and with nerves that IS what I look like !). I'm never going to ask my dog to heel beside me for our entire walk, nor even when we walk past other dogs.... that isn't heel to me .

The only reason I change my body language in the trial ring (hands in front/ to the side/ out the back) is to help him understand better. Likewise when i'm heeling; my left hand is on my hip as opposed to swinging around. In agility - my hand is out as opposed to beside me :p.

IMHO - obedience trialling does not build up 'manners' or general everyday 'obedience'. I don't do it for that. I do/ did the basic classes for that. Hence why some trialling dogs have appaling manners . Obedience/ agility/ dog sports to me build up teamwork and is thus not necessary to everyday living. I do it coz I love it..... and what I do in the ring, in my mind doesn't help him become a better dog in public, but me generalising what we do in the ring to EVERYWHERE that helps him be a good dog in public.......

[ness]

Oh yes open stays are a great chance to have a gossip session . Not done UD stays only at club and yep another chance for a gossip session :p .

Open stays over in WA were hilarious (especially at the West Coast Challenge). One of the other handlers during the sit stay because they all knew we were sitting on our title kept telling me not to pass out when I returned to Ness and remain calm so she would complete the down stay . The down stay well lets just say that was the longest 5 minutes of my entire life.

[leopuppy04]

man I hate stays - just thinking about them makes me nervous!

[Arya]

In stays, I keep my hands behind my back. I walk away with them like that and I turn around and leave them like that, with my legs slightly apart. This works for me and my dog. In recalls or distance control or stand for exam I keep my hands in front. But hey, I don't think there's a rule as long as you keep your hands in the same position and don't move around and make it look like you're doing extra signals. You don't have to do EXACTLY what your instructor says as long as you are doing something that isn't incorrect. My advice would be to do what you are most comfortable with as this will transmit in your body language across the ring to your dog. Your dog will take the cue from you to relax and sit it out. If that's fold your hands in front then go with it.

Hey, I would like to see everyone do the hokey pokey while their dogs are in the stays though - imagine THAT sight

[Arya]

Oh yeah, here's another tip that works for me. My dog keeps looking to me for direction and if I'm looking away she doesn't like it. I know you're not supposed to stare at them in the stays but sometimes I do, and keep my face relaxed as I can and happy looking. Okay, it's a signal I suppose but as long as your not changing your face I would think it's okay. It really works for me and reassures her. Try it and see what works best for your dog.

[Sayreovi]

I do what most seem to do here, hands behind back for stays and hands in front for recall.

[Erny]

If trialling judges really wanted to evidence the proofing of the dog-competitor, couldn't they randomly dictate to the handler what they wanted them to do? IE Put your hands on your head; put your hands in front; put your hands behind; or in the OP's case do a chicken dance or nutbush?

Wouldn't this then encourage people to REALLY proof their dogs for 'real life' situations, rather than merely for ring work?

The way I see it (flame suit on) there are dogs with all sorts of Titles but who's reliability outside of the ring could well leave a lot to be desired in comparison with a dog who is trained not for trialling but for 'real life out-there' situations.

Shouldn't "Titles" reflect the overall standard of reliability - not just standard of reliability in very stringent 'ring' conditions?

[leopuppy04]

The way I see it (flame suit on) there are dogs with all sorts of Titles but who's reliability outside of the ring could well leave a lot to be desired in comparison with a dog who is trained not for trialling but for 'real life out-there' situations.

Agreed . But then people get awfully funny about the level at which their dogs can compete etc. And IMHO - it is a tough ask for a dog to do all of these behaviours with little/ no indication that they are doing the right thing from their master.

Having said that - I think that 'most' triallers also train good manners also - they have enough 'training knowledge' to do so perhaps without even knowing that they are doing it :D. There are some that don't do that and for whatever reason, clearly they wouldn't take their dogs out to experience everyday situations coz where's the fun in having an OC titled dog that doesn't have the manners at the local cafe.

I don't think any competition will give you 'real life out there' situations. Just like - sometimes the 'best' dog doesn't always win in the show ring .

So - I compromise and train for both - one as a sport and the other so that my dog is reliable and a pleasure to take everywhere .

[KismetKat]

Hey, I would like to see everyone do the hokey pokey while their dogs are in the stays though - imagine THAT sight

and yes like Erny said, a chicken dance or time warp (with the handlers dancing together, in time!)

Certainly would make trialling more of a spectator event! :D

But thanks for replies guys - I will try and be a good vegemite and figure out where my hands are best kept