Have Judges Become Too Pedantic?

[MissMonaro]

I always do SFE with my hands by my side.

Also in recall I do call my dogs name...pause...and then command. But most I have been pipped for this is a few points knocked off.

On a side note I have been in a group sit exercise and either 4 or 5 of the dogs down the other end of the line got up and moved because one of them bothered the others. There literally were dogs going everywhere...except the 3 up my end.

The whole time I was hoping they didnt come up my end and bother my dog and the 2 either side of her as they were all stable and stayed put.

The judge decided to redo the whole sit exercise for everyone.

But others whose dogs also knew the next exercise was group drop....then blew their chances because a couple of the dogs dropped. So they were pissed as originally their dogs had completed the exercise but then lost out cos they had to redo it for the others. My dog did shuffle her front feet when the others dropped...but thankfully stayed in the sit position.

Now in the drop exercise, one of the dogs that had been bothered in the sit exercise the first time around....moved again. The judge decided it was because it was still anxious and then let her redo that portion of the drop exercise again with 2 other dogs (that had failed because of the sit fiasco) and she passed just that one.

There were many ppl shaking their heads at that one....but kind of like showing....helps when the person was also a judge.

[Tapferhund]

MrsD,

You just don't get it.........or maybe you're a Judge???

"I read the rules & make sure my dog is at a much higher standard than is expected. I consider myself to be a very good handler & I would never dream of putting my hands on my stomach when I was doing a SFE or thinking that if my dog lifted it's bum in the DoR that it was entitled to a qualifier, but hey, that's just me"

Whoopdie doo for you !

Like I said....you just don't get it......what we are talking about

[Flames_Daddy]

Tapferhund, I have just had a look at your website on http://au.geocities.com/tapferhundshepherds/ and I am very impressed with your attitude and devotion to GSDs.

From your website:

I am passionate about the breed being a working dog first and foremost, believing in the ideals v Stephanitz set for his beloved breed in tests for the maintaining of the breed’s excellent temp/char and working drives. In this the 21st century if that ‘ideal’ can not be through IPO, then it should be at least one of the other following available dog sports, Herding, Obedience and/or Tracking…especially for those who want to Show and breed their animals.

I believe that when Germany set ‘the tests, rules and regulations’ for the breed, other countries throughout the world, including Australia, should have followed suit by adopting ALL those tests and rules from the very beginning.

That, to me, says it all really. You combine passion with science and your results speak volumes. You see the big picture and don't get bogged down - you see the trees yet don't compromise your ability to scope out the entire forest in the process.

[wheres my rock]

i think obedience has become a ral military exercise its lost its direction i know i struggle with the idea of bothering to trial another dog i know my dogs wrk to a high standard and who needs someone ni picking on stupid things that irrelevent to whther the dog is completing the exercise sure take points of but nq come on i do stand for exam with my hands in my heeling postion one down by my side the other on my hip and have not so far lost a point for it

but to nq a whippet because of the way it is built is ridiculous my friend no longer trials now so theres one lost to the sport

Also these dogs are in novice cut them some slack sure tae of the points and explain why and be fair i can see why more and more people are leaving obedience saying its too boring

[MrsD]

no, Im not a judge :p .

Just a competitor who doesnt have a problem with judges doing what they are there to do - judging my dog. I expect good work from my dogs & I expect to be penalised if my dog makes a mistake .

[Arya]

Hi all, I'm more than happy to speak out and say I was one of the people who had one of these incidents happen on this weekend and as most of you know, am more than happy to say when my girl stuffs up LOL. It was the recall incident. The judge was lovely to me and spent a lot of time talking throughout my workout (something I really don't want to deal with when I'm working my dog in drive and want to concentrate but I do appreciate the kind advice). Something Tapferhund didn't mention was my girl did a beautiful recall (and you know how she goes Dogdude when she is working properly) and the judge actually TOLD ME that they weren't going to penalise me but then when I looked at the score sheet I was NQd on the exercise! Imagine my surprise... I lost a pass on this and yet still managed a sixth out of 14 entrants.

Of course, I would never question the judge as it's just not worth the aggro you can face. I was just happy that my dog broke the hoodoo and worked closer to what she can do and I must say I HAVE STEVE K9 TO THANK FOR THIS!!! :p ;) as his trigger word made all the difference. But I know I left a gap and the dog came in on the 'come' and I certainly would never blame a judge's decision for my or my girl's crappy performance. I'm happy to own up when she bombs out. What's more, the dog did this when less than fifty metres away they were frying up bacon and eggs on a bbq and every dog on the field's mouth was watering and they were looking across to it at some point LOL.

Further to this incident I had a second one in the second trial which really upset me and my girl went out of drive and bombed out completely because of it. I am happy to say she might have done this anyway as it was a lot to ask her to hold herself together for a second trial in one day after we'd been up since 4.30am but it wasn't very nice and I didn't know that what happened to us could happen or was allowed. But if anyone wants to know they'll have to PM me as I'm not going to say stuff publically about it.

Yes, I agree that sometimes people can blame judges for failures that are of their own making but also, things can happen that are not your fault. It is the subjective part of the sport unfortunately. I am happy to say I was happy with my dog's performance on the day in the morning trial I was at on Saturday and that is enough for me. I am primarily interested in seeing her progress and work confidently and happily in pressure situations, wherever we come. The second incident that happened to me was upsetting though as it upset the dog. But I won't pass judgement either way if someone thinks they've been judged unfairly and do feel that sometimes, particularly with the stays, things are ridiculous in ANKC obedience. (In saying this this is not sour grapes as my dog always does the stays.)

I think that the stays need to be looked at. At the risk of being flamed, Schutzhund stays make far more sense to me, even if they are expected to do them for much longer.

[poodlefan]

Don't like the judge.. don't trial under them. Tell the club you won't be giving them another entry if they book the judge and why.

On the other hand, you won't be doing yourself any favours if you get through Novice with bad habits and sloppy work - it will only get harder.

[Arya]

Don't like the judge.. don't trial under them. Tell the club you won't be giving them another entry if they book the judge and why.

On the other hand, you won't be doing yourself any favours if you get through Novice with bad habits and sloppy work - it will only get harder.

Like I said Poodlefan, I'm more than happy to own up if my dog doesn't work well but what happened to me was neither bad habits or sloppy work on behalf of me or my dog!!! Perhaps your comment was just a general one and not referring to me though. And I won't trial under the second judge I had on sat ever again, that's for sure!

[poodlefan]

Don't like the judge.. don't trial under them. Tell the club you won't be giving them another entry if they book the judge and why.

On the other hand, you won't be doing yourself any favours if you get through Novice with bad habits and sloppy work - it will only get harder.

Like I said Poodlefan, I'm more than happy to own up if my dog doesn't work well but what happened to me was neither bad habits or sloppy work on behalf of me or my dog!!! Perhaps your comment was just a general one and not referring to me though. And I won't trial under the second judge I had on sat ever again, that's for sure!

Yep, general comment only Ayra. I certainly know judges I wouldn't bother to give an entry to. It's not only because of how they judge me but how they judge generally. If a dog that never works on a loose lead in CCD can beat a dog that does, you've got to wonder what the point is really..

Edited May 14, 2007 by poodlefan

[Tarmons]

Mrs D:

' hands in 'normal position' for SFE....' then you went on to say that you do not cross your hands in front on your stomach for SFE .. or words to that effect.

In that case the Judge referred to in the OP would have NQ'd you because that hands crossed in front is the only correct position as far as he is concerned. Normally points are deducted because of the way the Dog stands..one would hardly think that where the handlers hands are placed is a NQ.

The Judge was being pedantic in that case IMO. The object of SFE is not how the Handler is standing but how the dog is standing.

With regard to Victorian dogs not performing well enough to title in Queensland ... I cannot comment on that because the Victorian dogs I have seen working would qualify anywhere with high scores. They have been a joy to watch especially when in UD the scores ranged from 200 - 189 with only a point or two separating them.

Extended signals is a problem and it is very difficult when you are trialling a Dachie and get pinged for extended signals. After a trial I did suggest to one Judge that he take the dog for an offlead heeling pattern and give the signals from the waist...... he did and then changed his tune quick smart. Hopefully it made him a little more understanding when he judged the next tiny dog.

Most of us have a list of those Judges we would never trial under again in a month of Sundays....

[dogdude]

I agree that some judges, usually the younger ones, try to talk too much, and try to push there training practices and beliefs on the competitors far too often.

I found that the majority, especially the older judges, are great, and do more to relax the handler than worry about preaching technique or advice when it was not asked for.

Just like every other sport that has a human referee/umpire/judge, you are going to get different opinion and views.

It is a sport of precision, it has quite clear rules, someone will always interpret them slightly differently, sometimes to your advantage, sometimes not. I think like other sports, sometimes the wrong decision will be made, but I dont think we should all pack up our bat and balls and go home!

My sympathy goes out to those in the thread that have been a victim of a bad decision, but I dont think the thread is doing wonders for the sport.

[MissMonaro]

when I looked at the score sheet I was NQd on the exercise

It might of paid you do query the judge. The reason I say this is I went to watch one of my friends trial her dog. One of the scores was a NQ and she was going to pack up and go home...but we convinced her to stay for groups and give her dog the practice.

We ended up staying to watch the awards at the end as well....and she got called out for a place and a qualify...and we were all like What ??

It turns out that the writer had written the scores on the board incorrectly. Luckily they had been checked. Also watch the addition of the scores - have seen them be added up incorrectly as well.

[MrsD]

Mrs D:

' hands in 'normal position' for SFE....' then you went on to say that you do not cross your hands in front on your stomach for SFE .. or words to that effect.

In that case the Judge referred to in the OP would have NQ'd you because that hands crossed in front is the only correct position as far as he is concerned. Normally points are deducted because of the way the Dog stands..one would hardly think that where the handlers hands are placed is a NQ.

You've read my post & the OP incorrectly I think - the OP said the handler had her hands "flat on her stomach" & I said I would never dream of doing a SFE with my hands in that position.

As for where the hands being placed contributing to an NQ - if the judge thinks that the handlers hand position has contributed to the dog staying (ie the principle feature of the exercise), then why not? The rules clearly state that if, but for a second signal or command, the judge thinks that the dog would not have done the principle feature of the exercise, then the dog shall NQ. It's a judgement - that's why they are judges .

As you said, yes there are judges who certain people don't like & judges who sometimes make crap decisions, but as the OP pointed out, these are all different judges & all different competitors. Hard to believe that all judges are out to get people!

[MrsD]

I agree that some judges, usually the younger ones, try to talk too much, and try to push there training practices and beliefs on the competitors far too often.

I found that the majority, especially the older judges, are great, and do more to relax the handler than worry about preaching technique or advice when it was not asked for.

Just like every other sport that has a human referee/umpire/judge, you are going to get different opinion and views.

It is a sport of precision, it has quite clear rules, someone will always interpret them slightly differently, sometimes to your advantage, sometimes not. I think like other sports, sometimes the wrong decision will be made, but I dont think we should all pack up our bat and balls and go home!

My sympathy goes out to those in the thread that have been a victim of a bad decision, but I dont think the thread is doing wonders for the sport.

:D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :clap:

[MolassesLass]

My sympathy goes out to those in the thread that have been a victim of a bad decision, but I dont think the thread is doing wonders for the sport.

Actually, the blame IMO for "not doing wonders for the sport" lays at the feet of the judges being talked about. Not this thread!

[dogdude]

One observation that I have made on this forum, is that I have never viewed a post asking about information to become an obedience judge. At the end of the day there is always going to be more people trying to get something out of the sport, rather than giving something back to it.

As I am not in the position to become one to change things for myself, I am happy to take my chances.

Edited May 14, 2007 by dogdude

[Tapferhund]

Flames Daddy,

Thank you for your kind words , that's very nice of you !!

To everyone else,thanks for your replies too. I know it can be a bit of a touchy subject,but I really feel some judges need to step back a little and review some of the ridiculous reasons they are non qualifying competitors on.

Our hobby or chosen sport is meant to be an enjoyable one but for many it is fast becoming an annoying and frustrating one that they don't want to be bothered with anymore.

[wheres my rock]

actually i'd love to become a judge but being legally blind i think my competitors would get it just a little to easy rofl

[Tapferhund]

"I think that the stays need to be looked at. At the risk of being flamed, Schutzhund stays make far more sense to me, even if they are expected to do them for much longer."

I don't think you will be flamed here Arya as there are quite a few Dogsport folk,enthusiasts here on this site.

I do agree with you though, ANKC stays ,from the dogs point of view ,are really bad , they work 'against' the dogs natural abilities,behaviours,feelings and instincts and not 'towards' or for them in these areas IMO.......if that makes sense.

[PAX]

actually i'd love to become a judge but being legally blind i think my competitors would get it just a little to easy rofl

WMR, it wont be a problem. I will tell you how good my dog went.