Have Judges Become Too Pedantic?

[Tapferhund]

This is not about Judge bashing nor is it about the genuine mistakes handler/dog teams can make resulting ,deservedly so ,in them non qualifying at trials,but I do think many Judges these days have become or are becoming TOO pedantic in their Judging ,much of which is bordering on nit picking the ridiculous.

Once upon a time Judges wanted you to pass but in the last few years the opposite seems true IMO and their pedantic nit picking is pushing many trialers away from further trialing as they can no longer be bothered with ANKC obedience ,it's trials or the way their Judges judge.

Here are a few examples of the type of thing I am talking about.......a Novice entrant and her dog were doing very well in every exercise, the dog working really nicely,lovely heel routine, lovely stand for examination, the same for recall and change of position ,but at the end of the 'workout' exercises the Judge told her she NQ'd on the Stand for examination. When she queried this he told her that in his opinion her hands were not in the right position when she was facing the dog during the examination , her hands were still but flat on her stomach but in the Judges opinion,her hands should have been clasped together in front of her body. ;)

Another case.....dog and handler team were on a pass after the workout but failed(?) on the sit stay. The dog was sitting nice and square and about two minutes in to the exercise,the dog rolled on to it's hip.........so the Judge failed the dog saying he "saw daylight" when the dog rolled(?) Now the dog didn't lift ,it DIDN'T break the exercise ,it just rolled from the flat of it's bum on to its hip.......and no body else saw daylight only the Judge.

And another case........dog worked really well and on the last exercise the change of position, the dog went down on cue when the handler gave both voice and a very nice hand signal that was in NO way extended........but the judge failed the team because in their opinion the signal was a split second longer than they would like.............and last but not least , another team who worked really well in all exercises but failed in the recall. The dog did every part of the exercise,lovely fast recall, nice straight sit in front and very nice straight finish........but the Judge thought the time frame between the handler calling the dogs name and then the 'come' was not long enough(?) Now there was a gap but in the judges opinion it should have been longer. .....now how nit pickin is that !!!! B****y ridiculous IMO and IMO these things should NOT be a fail but if anything should just be loss of points, even if it is a substantial.......but no way should it be a total fail.

I myself am also having trouble in this area of pedantic judging. My dog has a tendancy to adjust himself ,lifting his bum 1cm sometimes 2cms, on the drop on recall and everytime I get "exercise finished". IMO he has NOT broken the stay because he doesn't actually get up, he just shifts his bum ,partly due to anticipation and partly due to anxiety, ........BUT because the Judges are far enough away from him for the recall, they see daylight under him. Now if the Judges were standing closer to the dog, they wouldn't see anything and would probably take a few points off for fidgeting , which is OK by me (the point loss that is) but IMO it is totally unfair, as it is with the others, to fail a dog totally for being a dog...............and that's the crux of the problem IMO with ANKC Judges........they don't allow for dogs being dogs........they are too pedantic in relation to the handlers and in many cases too inconsistant in their judging.

[Tarmons]

Tapferhund ...

where in the Rules does it say that the handlers's hands should be clasped in the front .....????? ;)

....in his opinion her hands were not in the right position when she was facing the dog during the examination ,...

As for the break between the name and the command... the rules only say a distinct pause....

Those Judges who did this are definitely pedantic...The competitors should definitely revolt.

Edited May 12, 2007 by Tarmons

[Tapferhund]

Hi Tarmons,

You can't revolt.......you can't even question a Judge or you get hauled over the coals for it. It doesn't matter how much a 'general member' is in the right over an issue, the controling bodies don't see it that way......in other words, Judges can do no wrong............but it will all come back on them one day......when they have few people left to trial.

[dogdude]

Hi Tapferhund

Can I ask you, did you witness all of the above incidents?, or were they second hand news?

I ask this because people tend to blame others more often than not to save face etc.

There is nothing in the rules to say where your hands should be resting during the stand for exam, unless the incident in question was seen as a double signal. I would challenge it either way. But in saying that, did you witness this incident?

Incidents like pause during the recall is not an automatic NQ, but a points deduction, which probably just contributed to the NQ.

The other rules are pretty black and white. Some judges are harsher than others, some have more, and less experience than others.

IMO the standard is there for a reason, and far too many handlers enter with a wing and a prayer attitude. Where do you draw a line in the sand? ;)

[B-Q]

would other judges be able to bring it up?

i know afer a while buster would have to readjust his sit position. he doesn't even sit on his feet, he sits righ on his bum...

i agree wiht that dogs should be dogs. i mean cummon. they don't know theirgonna get disqualified for just getting more comfy or getting bored. its a lot to ask what the judges want i think

[witheverythingiam]

Well if these owners all failed from the same judge, perhaps they can all write letters to their club who held the trial to say not to have that person come judge again. It is quite pedantic from what you've described, but you can't change the past unfortunately.

-WithEverythingIAm

[J...]

From my very limited trialling & stewarding experience, all the judges I've worked with/been judged under have been willing to give the handler every chance possible to further encourage them on, but thats all been at CCD level. I have been pinged a few points here and there for things like extended signal (mostly out of nerves than any intent). But they've all been minor deductions points wise.

Wouldn't you approach the VCA rep on the day, especially if its against whats in the rule book?

BL - thats obedience trialling for you, just like any other high level dog activity - 0.1 of a second slow on an agility course is the difference between going home with a pass and going home empty handed.

[JulesP]

Yes you should approach the VCA rep on the day if you think that the judge has done something outside of the rules. Takes a bit of bravery to do this I know.

[wheres my rock]

Hi there

Yup i agree though havent been in the ring for a while i am hearing similar things a lot i had one girl in teads at club because er dog had failed yet again in novice for extended hand signals and they arent she has a small dog gives the drop in front of its nose a couple of inches down but apparently two judegs told her she had to give signals at waist height umm where does it say that n the rules.

Ive sen a whippet fail a down stay because you could see daylight under its chest i mean its a whippet thats the way they tend to lie it never moved but the judge didnt like the chest .

Its sad when people get nit picky i love to see people pass and i hate seeing epople getting frustrate because some judes seem to think that if people arent doign things the way they would then its not god enough it wold be tempting to video these runthroughs and send them to otec with a letter of coamplaint and see what they have to say lol

[Rom]

I ask this because people tend to blame others more often than not to save face etc.

I so agree with this!

IMO the standard is there for a reason, and far too many handlers enter with a wing and a prayer attitude. Where do you draw a line in the sand?

And this!

I believe that you need to train for a higher standard of criteria than what will be judged in the ring otherwise you are setting both yourself and your dog up for failure, frustration and wasting more money on travel and entry fees. All negative experiences IMO and impact on the nerves and confidence of both the dog and handler. (I'm speaking from personal experience on this one ;) ).

I was stewarding for a novice ring at a trial recently where the recall distance was longer than what the rule book called for (rule book says approx 12 meters, actual distance being judged on was around 14-15 meters...I know this because I did a step out measurement when I was placing the markers for the stays. And since 'approx' is not definitive, its open to interpretation by the judge) No competitor actually questioned the distance being judged on until one dog blew the recall by racing off to the side to sniff at something interesting on the grass...all of a sudden there were complaints about the recall distance not complying rules. IMHO this is a training issue and not a judging issue. I don't believe that there was anything unfair about the judges call on this because all the dogs were being judged on the same distance.

However, I do agree with the OP that some judges make unfair calls. One that I have witnessed was in a SFE with a small breed....judge NQ'd the exercise because as the handler was leaving the dog the loop in her lead touched the ground.

[Tapferhund]

OK everyone, thanks for your replies, I will answer each.....so here goes

"Can I ask you, did you witness all of the above incidents?, or were they second hand news?"

YES Dogdude, witnessed everyone of them and the examples are only a few of the unfairness I have seen .

"MO the standard is there for a reason, and far too many handlers enter with a wing and a prayer attitude. Where do you draw a line in the sand?"

I understand what you are saying and I am not suggesting lowering the bar(so to speak) to allow shoddy work to be able to pass. What I am complaining about is the punishment dished out , total NQ's ,by many Judges today ,far out weighs the crime. YES fail a dog/handler if the heel work is not up to standard with missing sits and drops etc or if any of the other exercises are not completed, but many of these dogs have done brilliantly in the exercise,completing it fully , only to be failed for some nit picking idiotic reason.

I will give you another example,and this was a senior Judge who did this.

Competitor and dog (GSD) enter the Open ring.......lovely heeling, stand for exam,drop on recall.........and then came the dumbell on the flat. Handler sends dog out, dog canters out picks dumbell straight up and returns at a fast gait to the handler.....completes the exercise with no problems. Does the last two exercises without a hitch and the guy thinks he is sitting on a good pass............so he has a look at his scores only to find he got an 8 for the Dumbell on the flat. He asks the Judge why(?) and the Judge tells him he didn't like the change of pace of the dog on the return, from cantering out to gaiting back, and that he expects all dogs to be more like GSP's who gallop out and gallop back.....and I was there when this happened to that poor guy. Needless to say he was so incensed by what had happened he threw trialing in then and there.

"Well if these owners all failed from the same judge, perhaps they can all write letters to their club who held the trial to say not to have that person come judge again. It is quite pedantic from what you've described, but you can't change the past unfortunately."

Witheverythingiam,

All different competitors and all different Judges I'm afraid and NO you can't change the past...BUT this unfortunately is going to be the future as well and there is not much anyone can do about it other than give it away all together........like many have done and like many are considering.

"thats obedience trialling for you,"

No it isn't Feralpup.........and that is part of the problem.....too many are too accepting of this type of unfairness for good work given.

"Takes a bit of bravery to do this I know."

JulesP,

Bravery has got nothing to do with it... ;) ....to do so is to take your life in to your own hands

WheresmyRock,

I agree with you and that's pretty bad about the whippet.....but is exactly the type of thing I am talking about and it is totally unfair IMO and this sort of thing loses good trialing dog people to the sport/hobby.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Tapferhund

[MrsD]

I ask this because people tend to blame others more often than not to save face etc.

I so agree with this!

IMO the standard is there for a reason, and far too many handlers enter with a wing and a prayer attitude. Where do you draw a line in the sand?

And this!

I believe that you need to train for a higher standard of criteria than what will be judged in the ring otherwise you are setting both yourself and your dog up for failure, frustration and wasting more money on travel and entry fees. All negative experiences IMO and impact on the nerves and confidence of both the dog and handler. (I'm speaking from personal experience on this one ;) ).

I was stewarding for a novice ring at a trial recently where the recall distance was longer than what the rule book called for (rule book says approx 12 meters, actual distance being judged on was around 14-15 meters...I know this because I did a step out measurement when I was placing the markers for the stays. And since 'approx' is not definitive, its open to interpretation by the judge) No competitor actually questioned the distance being judged on until one dog blew the recall by racing off to the side to sniff at something interesting on the grass...all of a sudden there were complaints about the recall distance not complying rules. IMHO this is a training issue and not a judging issue. I don't believe that there was anything unfair about the judges call on this because all the dogs were being judged on the same distance.

However, I do agree with the OP that some judges make unfair calls. One that I have witnessed was in a SFE with a small breed....judge NQ'd the exercise because as the handler was leaving the dog the loop in her lead touched the ground.

Agree totally with ROM & DogDude!

Tapferhund, some judges may be harsh, but some of those examples you gave I'd expect the person & dog to NQ! And if I was a handler on a qualifying score in the same class as them I'd be damn p*ssed off if they did qualify. If you read the rules you will find all sorts of interesting things - the examples you gave certainly broke some of the rules.

Might I suggest that you don't ever come to Qld to trial .

[Tarmons]

Mrs D

I do trial in Qld and I have never witnessed someone being NQ'd in Stand for Exam because they didn't stand with their hands clasped in front of them.

Neither have I come across any Judge who insisted on more than a distinct pause between the name and the command.

Actually I think it would be great to have Tapferhund trial in Queensland under our Judges.

I think you would be pleasntly surprised to see just how well Tapferhund and her dogs work in the ring.

Also... just another point based on 16 years of seeing Queenslanders trial in Melbourne under Victorian Judges..... they don't do as well down there.

Much to their chagrin and frustration, the high scores they get in the Sunshine State are not repeated down there so maybe it is because some of the VCA Judges are a little pedantic.. ;)

[wheres my rock]

ive trialled in both states i didnt really notice a difference in scores but my dog was getting high scores in melb anyway s i guess i wouldnt

ive seen taperhunds dogs work and they are very nice working dogs and taper is a very good handler so if sh says the judges are being pedantic then would say they are there is a trial nearby in a couple of weeks might trot down and have look anyone want to pm me which judges i should check out

Edited May 13, 2007 by wheres my rock

[Rebanne]

Many, many years ago I was trialling under a senior, respected judge. He pinged me many points in the heeling as he thought my voice and hands signals were not given together, hence a double signal. Fair enough I thought until I asked him which signal was coming in early, voice or hand. His answer? " I don't know, they were too close together to tell" If he couldn't tell which was first how could he tell they were apart?? I never trialled under him again.

[MrsD]

I do trial in Qld and I have never witnessed someone being NQ'd in Stand for Exam because they didn't stand with their hands clasped in front of them.

I have - & it was at Canberra Royal under an interstate (to me) judge - & both my friend (who's a senior judge up here in Qld) & myself agreed with the judgement! The rules state that your hands should be returned to a "normal" position after giving a signal - putting your hands elsewhere can be considered a second signal. The rules also state if the judge considers that, but for an additional command or signal the dog would not have performed the principle feature of the exercise, the dog shall receive a non qualifying score.

Interestingly, when the competitor in Canberra was questioned outside the ring by another competitor about why he didnt just put his hands at his sides or clasped in front, his answer was because the dog wouldnt stay if he did that - so that's not a second signal, now is it?

Neither have I come across any Judge who insisted on more than a distinct pause between the name and the command.

Cant comment on that one - what one person may see as "distinct" may be different to another & it's not up to me to question the judgement as I didnt see it. Lets just say that I never have, & can guarantee I never will, be penalised for that problem :p .

Also... just another point based on 16 years of seeing Queenslanders trial in Melbourne under Victorian Judges..... they don't do as well down there.

Much to their chagrin and frustration, the high scores they get in the Sunshine State are not repeated down there so maybe it is because some of the VCA Judges are a little pedantic..

Interestingly, my friend & I have very similar thoughts about many of the dogs that we've seen from Victoria - no way would they get their titles up here based on the work we've seen. So who's right? ;)

Edited May 13, 2007 by MrsD

[wheres my rock]

well we got our ud in qland and with great scores so i cont know about that actualy wehn we arrived up there the club we went to were amazed at how my dogs worked and commented that they hadnt seen a dg work that well so i dont know guess its all in the eyes of the beholder

[J...]

"thats obedience trialling for you,"

No it isn't Feralpup.........and that is part of the problem.....too many are too accepting of this type of unfairness for good work given.

You've taken me out of context there Tapferhund, if you read my post I was referring to BL's post re dogs should be dogs and getting bored or making themselves comfortable, not your OP.

Edited May 13, 2007 by feralpup

[MrsD]

well we got our ud in qland and with great scores so i cont know about that actualy wehn we arrived up there the club we went to were amazed at how my dogs worked and commented that they hadnt seen a dg work that well so i dont know guess its all in the eyes of the beholder

You've completely missed the point WMR, its got nothing to do with who's right or who's wrong or who's dog works better than someone elses, but about what is expected in the ring. I read the rules & make sure my dog is at a much higher standard than is expected. I consider myself to be a very good handler & I would never dream of putting my hands on my stomach when I was doing a SFE or thinking that if my dog lifted it's bum in the DoR that it was entitled to a qualifier, but hey, that's just me .

[PAX]

My first Novice Pass (well what I thought was a pass after many failures in the stays) I was dumbfounded when the judge told me I had failed because my dog had shifted from the spinx position onto his hip as I left him and she had seen daylight...........WTF. Every one that watched said they saw no daylight and the rule book says 'not more 50% of the body moves', his brisket and front never moved.

The judge said it was just badluck (yeah right) and something I couldn't train for. It annoyed me because if he had been a long haired dog he would of got away with it. I think it was over the top judging and it was before the CCD, not at all encouraging.

I have also seen high level triallers in Novice with a young dog get away with and win the ring with some NQing behaviour.

What can you do? If you complain you just look bad so I just black list the judge, I have only black listed two or maybe three.