Fitting Dog

[mollydog2]

Hi

I am at my wits end! My beautiful border collie Molly is nearing 7 years old and for the last 2.5 years has been having fits. We have been on Phenobarb and epibrom combined but still every 6 weeks she has close to 20- 3 ;) 0 fits for 3 days and then the cycle starts again, this time the fits were really bad and my vet said that it's time to consider putting her to sleep, we have tried valium and all it does is make her stumble around and does not stop the fits. He has prescribed us a drug called Bromax to take with the phenobarb and today is the first day of taking it. Anyone else had any similar experiences or any advice that they can give me? She really is a precious sole and very much a family member!

[Cavandra]

Jean Dodds website re Vaccination & the damage

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

Catherine O'Driscoll website is

http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

Some doggy Natural therapists are Robert McDowell (not sure of a website)

Jackie Fitzgerald http://www.petpower.com.au/

Here is the letter written by the manufacturer of Proheart12 injection. You see in the box what the warning is on the label, but Australian Vets ignore this & give it routinely. Our version is 3 times the dose of the recalled version!!!!!!!!

http://www.wyethah.ca/pdfs/Canine/EngLetterMarch16.pdf

My opinion is that most seizures are caused by over vaccination and or the heartworm shot! I have seen quite a few fitting dogs as clients. They usually start it around the age of 5 or 6 when the build up of vaccine occurs (IMO)........Those that have ceased all chemical & vaccine treatments & put their dogs of natural raw diets, have successfully limited the siezures and many have stopped altogether. Homeopaths or Holistic vets can help detox the dog too. Those that have chosen to continue to vaccinate etc and use prescription drugs have just continued on with nothing changing.

On a different tangent there have been cases of dogs drinking stagnant ponds/creek/dam water & having seizures caused by the algae. Also Ivermectin sensitivity ie heartworm tablets can cause seizures too.

Some food for thought.

(edited for spelling!)

Edited May 12, 2007 by Cavandra

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Cavandra, while I respect your right to voice your opinion, can you please provide some evidence (research) as to how you have arrived at the opinion of seizures being caused by medicating and vaccinating dogs? ETA: I'm still to be convinced of this apparent link...but if you have conclusive evidence from a respected vet school, I would be very interested in seeing it.

My chi x has recently been diagnosed with epilepsy and in the reading I've done to date, I cannot find any conclusive or solid research that proves a link without reasonable doubt between vaccination and/or heartworm preventives and seizures. I do believe that ivermectin can cause issues in sensitive dogs but whether that also leads to seizures is still in doubt. However, the recommendations for seizure prone dogs in terms of preventives are to use a non-ivermec based heartworm preventive such as Interceptor Spectrum (which I've been using on all my dogs for YEARS without incident); FrontlinePlus for fleas and ticks (again I've been using for YEARS without issue), and continue with vaccinations that are required in the area in which the dog lives and visits. In our case, that had been C5 but we now live in the wet tropics, so I'll be having the dogs done with the stand-alone Leptospirosis vaccine on vet's recommendation.

BTW - I use both holistic and western philosophies in managing my dogs. They're all fed a raw, whole foods diet. They are vaccinated at recommended intervals and I will be discussing this with our next vet b/c I would like to move to a three-year protocol rather than continue with the annual vax. They are on western preventives for parasites. I also use DAP products to manage anxiety, and other holistic products for specific conditions such as our dog with skin allergies (she will be starting on two McDowall products soon as moving back to Darwin seems to be re-triggering her allergic response). ;)

Edited May 13, 2007 by lillysmum

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Hi

I am at my wits end! My beautiful border collie Molly is nearing 7 years old and for the last 2.5 years has been having fits. We have been on Phenobarb and epibrom combined but still every 6 weeks she has close to 20- 3 ;) 0 fits for 3 days and then the cycle starts again, this time the fits were really bad and my vet said that it's time to consider putting her to sleep, we have tried valium and all it does is make her stumble around and does not stop the fits. He has prescribed us a drug called Bromax to take with the phenobarb and today is the first day of taking it. Anyone else had any similar experiences or any advice that they can give me? She really is a precious sole and very much a family member!

I'm sorry that I have no experience or advice to share. My own Molly has recently been diagnosed with epilepsy and it's a learning experience. I have a visit with a new vet tomorrow to check her levels and we go from there (we've just moved to Darwin and only found out about this the week we left Canberra).

I would be guided by your vet's advice, and also from reading what you can from credible sources - and there's nothing wrong with non-western opinions as long as the reader is clear when it is an opinion being offered rather than proven or science-based fact.

[Cavandra]

lillysmum,

Firstly here is a link to a horse site http://www.naturalhorsetalk.com/recentshows.html

You will find a podcast interview with Dr Bob Rogers, he discusses the damage vaccines cause our dogs & cats, and explains how he is instrumental in suing the drug companies for insisting on annual vaccines when there is NO EVIDENCE that they are necessary etc etc etc.........It is worth listening too.

I have provided links to various websites in my first reply. Dr Jean Dodds is a leading vaccination expert , and for years has been warning that annual vaccinations in fact our entire protocol is wrong, and either causes zero immunity when given at the wrong ages & dangerous if over done. I know many many breeders/exhibitors who havent vaccinated since the age of 12 months, and have done this for up to 14 years , and have been exposed to dreaded diseases at shows etc and have NOT contracted the disease, yet annually vaccinated dogs did catch it, because the more you vaccinate the less immunity the dog has, they start to counteract each other, in the same way that vaccinating a baby pup at 6 weeks of age will not work if it has not been weaned for 2 weeks off its mother. the mothers milk immunity & the shot will counteract each other, and a Titre will show zero immunity.

I have had dogs vaccinated at 6, 12 & 16 weeks & the titers show zero immunity.......meanwhile the dog has been going to training, agility & whatnot & potentially being exposed to things unknown to the owner that it is not covered, all because of doing the pup at 6 weeks of age, which I must say breeders have been doing on the advise of their Vets for decades......the reason so many pups get parvo even though vaccinated!

to my knowledge there are no experts in the field in this Country, and no studies being undertaken here either! (why would they want to dissrupt such a major income to Vets) The same as there are no studies that prove annual vaccinations are necessary and safe!!! It is all about the drug companies lining their pockets.

I guess if we went about vaccinating ourselves annually with Tetnus or something we should feel the effects that our dogs endure ie compromised immune system, build up of toxins especially in the joints, encephalitis, aggression & various other brain dysfunctions etc...........

There is no reason to do it annually, and if you are too nervous about it, then Titer tests are available whereby you can see your dogs levels of vaccine in their system......If everyone did this, then the results would speak for themselves. Also there is another problem with vaccines in that there are many dogs that get no immunity from them whatsoever, so no matter how many times you jab them they will never be immune.........Titers can show these dogs also!

As far as the heartworm shot goes, I have provided the link to a letter by the manufacturer explaining that it is NOT to be given routinely, only to be used when all other means of heartworm methods cant be used ie a little old lady who cant give a tablet etc..........They plainly state the product had too many adverse reactions.......now these are KNOWN reactions, what about all the unknown ones??? The dogs that die within a week of having it & Vet or owner presume everything else except the heartworm shot as the cause! Australians do not link the adverse reactions to the shots, as they are not usually instantaneous reactions. I do know of pups that have started to have fits 1 month after being given the Proheart 12 injection at the age of 6 months........despite it not being recomended to be given to pups! I have also stated that our Proheart 12 is THREE times the strength of the Proheart 6 that was recalled oversease years ago.

It is finally sinking in in this Country that Vaccines are the cause of most problems, and yes many dogs have them annually or more without a drama, but many also dont......Many Vets agree but their hands are tied, as they must follow orders for insurance purposes....how frustrating that must be!!!

A friend with her lovely healthy dog that has been annually vaccinated with C5 all her life has got an inoperable form of cancer suddenly. She has taken her to a Holistic vet in SA and told that it is vaccine damage that caused it, and the Vets information provided to my friend was excellent. He has said basically all I have been saying for years & years to her, but it finally hit home that it is most likely all true. So there ARE some vets that are standing up for our pets!

I am not setting out to convert you, but many pet owners dont realise the contraversy of annual vaccines, and it is up to us all to make our own minds up, we have the right to decide, and not be pushed into doing this, as it will be years before the protocol is changed here due to it causing financial ruin of vets if it suddenly ceased to be. This is the reason the "compromise" 3 yearly vaccine has made its appearance.........they charge 3 times as much so dont lose.......I still wont be using it though LOL

[Jack@sandysmum]

My Maltese Gizmo was around eight years old when she starting having fits last year. She started having them quite regularly and one night alone we counted at least eight, we took her to the vet who told us that unfortunately at her age that it was unlikely that it was epilepsy and that it was more than likely she had a small tumour on her brain that was causing the seizures. He also said that although we counted at least eight she could have been having double what we counted. They were very distressing, not just for her, but my eight year old son and even the cat, who even though they weren't the best of pals could sense that something wasn't right. We decided to put her to sleep nearly a year ago ;), we just couldn't see her suffering any more, We will miss her forever!

BTW I found it sooo hard to make the decision and I took my sis-in-law and my husband came as well, I couldn't do it alone. I can still remember the noise in the dead of the night and wake up thinking she is still here, it is getting better, but I miss her so much.

I am sorry if this is no help but your post reminded me over again.

[~Anne~]

Hi

I am at my wits end! My beautiful border collie Molly is nearing 7 years old and for the last 2.5 years has been having fits. We have been on Phenobarb and epibrom combined but still every 6 weeks she has close to 20- 3 0 fits for 3 days and then the cycle starts again, this time the fits were really bad and my vet said that it's time to consider putting her to sleep, we have tried valium and all it does is make her stumble around and does not stop the fits. He has prescribed us a drug called Bromax to take with the phenobarb and today is the first day of taking it. Anyone else had any similar experiences or any advice that they can give me? She really is a precious sole and very much a family member!

mollydog, your first priority is to determine a way to bring the seizures under control.

What state are you in?

What are the therapeutic levels currently of the bromide and pheno and when were they last checked?

When you say you are giving valium, are you giving this during the seizure? In what form - oral, IV or rectally?

Is the Bromax replacing the Epibrom?

How much experience has your Vet with epilepsy?

I have an epileptic dog as do several other members of this site and I know from experience that some Vets are not very good with dealing with epilepsy.

Given that your dog started her seizures around 4-5 years of age did they initally check for other causes? Has she visited with a neuro? Has she had her thyroid checked?

Do you give the medication EXACTLY 12 hours apart religiously? This can affect the levels quite severely if the routine is not adhered to. Do you feed the medication with a little bit of food? What food doe you feed her. Different food compositions can affect the regularity of seizures for many reasons. The food that your dog eats will also predict the way that the Bromide is absorbed.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Puggles

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Cavandra, I don't support the use of heartworm preventive injections. I have never supported this particular product due to the adverse outcomes reported in the USA, UK and other developed nations. I use Interceptor Spectrum. I understand some people's reluctance to use western products but I would rather take a (very small) risk in using a proven-safe product such as Interceptor to prevent heartworm than to have a dog contract this awful and usually lethal parasite.

Annual vax, as I said - I don't fully agree with annual jabs but I'm yet to find a vet that will support a three-year protocol, never mind one that does titre testing either routinely or at all. It is still also cost-prohibitive in this country as so few laboratories are equipped to handle titre testing en masse.

As we do board our dogs, and as any reputable kennel will demand, an annual C5 is the bare minimum accepted across the industry. Here in the wet tropics, we also have deadly Leptospirosis to contend with and there are at least three strains covered in the vax for that disease. I intend to give each of our dogs the stand-alone Lepto vax rather than a C7. That not only minimises the likelihood of adverse responses, but gives the dog the required doses at the required intervals of four-weeks apart in a previously non-vaccinated dog.

While I accept that some people have strong views on current western vet practices, as do I in some examples, I caution against blanket statements such as yours that indicate seizure activity must be caused by over-medicating to prevent serious and deadly diseases, when this is not proven to be the case at all.

Sadly, in many cases of epilepsy, no cause is found (idiopathic) which doesn't mean that vaccinations have caused the problem at all.

[poodlefan]

Mollydog, I'm sorry to hear of your battle to control your dog's epilepsy. I can offer no advice beyond suggesting a referral to a veterinary specialist in this area.

I fail to see how a debate as to the cause of epilepsy in dogs assists the OP people, especially as there is no one cause identified or agreed. If the OP's dog has been vaccinated as recommended by his/her vet, then pointing the finger at him/her for being the "cause" of the dog's problem is basically kicking someone when they're down. Given that this is the OP's first post and that she/he is seeking help, it's hardly very sensitive.

If you want to debate the pros and cons of vaccination, start your own damn thread although it's all been said before anyway.

Edited May 14, 2007 by poodlefan

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Mollydog, I'm sorry to hear of your battle to control your dog's epilepsy.

I fail to see how a debate as to the cause of epilepsy in dogs assists the OP people, especially as there is no one cause identified or agreed. If the OP's dog has been vaccinated, then pointing the finger at him/her for being the "cause" of the dog's problem is basically kicking someone when they're down. Lovely.

If you want to debate the pros and cons of vaccination, start your own damn thread.

Agreed PF, and I'm trying to caution people against a knee-jerk reaction (stopping vax) when there is no scientifically-proven link.

My Molly is only 3 yrs old, so I'd say that her seizures aren't even remotely caused by her immune system having been compromised due to frequent vaccination.

[Erny]

My Molly is only 3 yrs old, so I'd say that her seizures aren't even remotely caused by her immune system having been compromised due to frequent vaccination.

Agree that "knee-jerk" reaction needs to be checked. Age of the dog is also, IMO, a consideration.

But isn't it possible that vaccinations could hinder a dog who is inflicted with neurological (?) abnormality? What I mean is, perhaps the vaccinations are not the cause of the symptomatic condition, but is it really helping the dog by subjecting it to vaccinations which do interrupt the immune system for at least a period of time after administration (or so I am given to understand)?

If I am right, then I guess it would be a case of weighing up the advantage compared to the disadvantages. Pitting one health condition against another. The area you live in, saturation of dogs and your dog interactive activities would all be something to take into account.

If it were me, I'd probably prefer to periodically titre test.

[Cavandra]

I fail to see how a debate as to the cause of epilepsy in dogs assists the OP people, especially as there is no one cause identified or agreed. If the OP's dog has been vaccinated as recommended by his/her vet, then pointing the finger at him/her for being the "cause" of the dog's problem is basically kicking someone when they're down. Given that this is the OP's first post and that she/he is seeking help, it's hardly very sensitive.

poodlefan i dont find it at all insensitive to offer advise & information. There are people who are offering conventional advise about drug therapy to control the siezures. I am offering another, which is advising the debate about vaccine damage to this member. WHY? because one of the said side effects of vaccinosis is ENCEPHALITIS (brain inflamation) which causes seizures..... if this is the case with this dog it can be cured, but many GP Vets dont know this etc, it is up to the member who has asked for advice what she decides to do, I have stated i would be having the dog detoxed & seeing a Holistic vet that is my 2 cents worth.

[poodlefan]

OK Cavandra, I see your point.

Note to self: Playing DOL Police is liable to make you look like an idiot.

[Erny]

Note to self: Playing DOL Police is liable to make you look like an idiot.

Nahhhh ..... you've contributed much in the way of common sense and informative posts over the years, PF. Too many "smiley stamps" for valuable information for you to ever look like an idiot.

[poodlefan]

Note to self: Playing DOL Police is liable to make you look like an idiot.

Nahhhh ..... you've contributed much in the way of common sense and informative posts over the years, PF. Too many "smiley stamps" for valuable information for you to ever look like an idiot.

Note to self - must try harder.

[mollydog2]

Hi Everyone that has responded to my letter re my precious Mollydog. We have had a dreadful weekend with her having about 40-50 fits, the poor sole is just exhausted. To answer some of your questions she has not had any injections for 2 years as my vet was convinced that it was a brain tumour and his prognosis was not good for the long term, anyway 3 years later we are in the same predicament. We live in North QLD and our nearest capital State is in Brisbane where she could have further treatment. It is a 14 hour drive to Brisbane or a flight from here, whichever is expensive not to mention any treatment. Anyway we regularly get her blood levels tested and they say she is on her maximum dose. I feed her a mixture of things from boiled chicken and rice to raw chicken wings to spaghetti bologneise, she rarely gets tinned food if ever it's too fatty and it gives her pancreatitus or however you spell it!

We give the valium in a needle form and yes the Bromax is replacing the epibrom although my vet said it was the same thing but a locum was there this weekend and prescribed it!!!! Go figure, anyway she is better today and has starting wagging her tail and although has a sore head, she won't let us touch her head, she is in good spirits until the next time! We are finding this extremely difficult as the dog was so distressed this weekend and crying in a confused state.

Many Thanks

[~Anne~]

Hi,

Has anyone done any kind of neurological exam to determine it being a brain tumour? I find it odd that a dog that is having seizures that are caused by a brain tumour is put on medication prescribed for epilepsy and there is not further treatment of the cause of the seizures.

When you say she is having 40 - 50 'fits', what exactly is a 'fit' in your eyes?

It would seem that your dog could not possibly be having tonic clonic siezures as this number of seizures within a 48hours period would undoubtedly kill her. The strain on her heart for one thing would be astonshing. She would also be declared as being in status and would need emergency veterinary care.

I assume she is therefore having a focal type of seizure??

A quick note on her meals. I was advised some time ago to cease all carbohydrates for my epileptic dog. I no longer feed rices or pasta and give minimal kibble. He eats only beef and chicken mince, sardines, eggs, yoghurt and veges.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Puggles

[mollydog2]

No we haven't had any neurological exams done, we were told that the only way we could determine the cause of her fits was to take her to Brisabne and as that is not an option financially our vet just prescribed meds to stop her seizures. Basically when she fits as I call it she is usually resting and she turns on her back and her legs go in a paddle motion and she foams at the mouth, it lasts for about 2 minutes and then she is out of it for up to 5 minutes and then she rises, bumping into anything in her sight and does not recognize us for a good hour, she usually has about 15 fits over 3 days every 6 weeks but this time it was close to 40! I have done research on the net but I must say I get very confused about the information available!

Thanks for the tips on her meals, again I have had conflicting opinions on that also!!!

Hi,

Has anyone done any kind of neurological exam to determine it being a brain tumour? I find it odd that a dog that is having seizures that are caused by a brain tumour is put on medication prescribed for epilepsy and there is not further treatment of the cause of the seizures.

When you say she is having 40 - 50 'fits', what exactly is a 'fit' in your eyes?

It would seem that your dog could not possibly be having tonic clonic siezures as this number of seizures within a 48hours period would undoubtedly kill her. The strain on her heart for one thing would be astonshing. She would also be declared as being in status and would need emergency veterinary care.

I assume she is therefore having a focal type of seizure??

A quick note on her meals. I was advised some time ago to cease all carbohydrates for my epileptic dog. I no longer feed rices or pasta and give minimal kibble. He eats only beef and chicken mince, sardines, eggs, yoghurt and veges.

[~Anne~]

Wow, in that case then the only option is to have her properly assesed. If she is indeed having 40 or 50 tonic/clonics I am amazed that she has survived. I am sorry if that sounds a little distressing but she is in the very real position of not surviving the next cluster. I have never heard of a dog having that many quite frankly without at least going into status or going to the Bridge.

Is she being medicated at exactly 12 hourly intervals?

Has any vet done a thyroid panel?

Could she be exposed to any known pesticides or insecticides?

There is an excellent epi list that I suggest you join and see what other advice you can get. Let me know if you would like to join this list. It has people from all over the world as members who have dogs with epilepsy and there is also a resident Vet.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Puggles

[mollydog2]

Hi, thanks for the replies, we have been to all 3 vets in the area and noone has any answers, they have all said that they have had no experience with cyclical seizures. We give her mediaction twice daily but not always 12 hours apart but usually the same time everyday. I don't think the vet has done a thyroid panel, what is that? No pesticides and we have moved so it's no the environment, yes I would like the epi list that would be great,

Many Thanks

Wow, in that case then the only option is to have her properly assesed. If she is indeed having 40 or 50 tonic/clonics I am amazed that she has survived. I am sorry if that sounds a little distressing but she is in the very real position of not surviving the next cluster. I have never heard of a dog having that many quite frankly without at least going into status or going to the Bridge.

Is she being medicated at exactly 12 hourly intervals?

Has any vet done a thyroid panel?

Could she be exposed to any known pesticides or insecticides?

There is an excellent epi list that I suggest you join and see what other advice you can get. Let me know if you would like to join this list. It has people from all over the world as members who have dogs with epilepsy and there is also a resident Vet.