Body Language

[MonElite]

I have got a shocking body language when I train my dogs. No wonder they are confused half the time.

I can teach them tricks really fast, they are relativelly reliable in all excercises they know, but the "finish" - we have NONE.

I have video'd myslef and I can see how I lean towards the dog, how I try to cover up their mistakes in a crooked sit or return etc.

I see it on the video but cant correct it during training.

I guess I could mirror the whole backyard, but that it hardly an option.

A friend free stacks the dog in the show ring by the smallest movements of her shoulders and her body.

Another person I know of gives slight hints to the dog doing a slightly crooked recall just with her eyes.

How do I get to half that level?

What do you people do?

Do you have a person telling you what you do wrong? do you train in front of a mirror?

What?

[Tonymc]

Myszka, you have already half solved the problem.Half the task is knowing what the problem is and you know that.

Modelling is a process used to short cut learning or gaining certain results.Modelling can be used in any area of Life.I would look around seek out somebody who has the Body language that gets effective results from their Dog/s.Talk to this Person and ask if they are willing to help you.Then model your approach,body language,frame of mind on theirs as thats what Modelling is.

Get this Person to watch and give an objective opinion on how you are going.

Also for every movement or exercise your wanting your Dog to perform,there is a effective body position or language.Isolate what is the best Body position for you to be in for each movement or exercise.Make up some small cards,one for each Behaviour your asking the dog for.On each card have a reminder of the Body position you need to be in.Make these Cards small enough to carry with you for easy reference.

Start small and do not be too hard on yourself as your changing Habits.The more your Practise the more second Nature the appropriate body Language will become. Tony

[MonElite]

There isnt a person like you describe that I can train with on regular basis.

There are people that I like their body language, there are people that I like their frame of mind, or the methods they use or the great timing htey have, but there isnt one taht has it all and especailly near by that, I can train with.

I guess Ill just get those that wee the errors I make to continually tell me I make them.

And there is plenty of tape in the video camera

Thanks for the tips, I also think Ill stick some tape into my back to keep me up and straight. (Trick from my past physio life)

[TangerineDream]

I've had the same problem and have attacked each thing, one at a time...

with inside left about turns, I worked out that I needed to do something that Cadence could pick up on as a signal, so I started to dip my left shoulder with an exaggerated movement one step before I started to turn and then did an exagerated turn also. When he picked this up and became reliable (with lots of praise from me), I made the signals smaller and smaller so by the end it was like with dressage, all I had to do was twitch my shoulder so slightly that you wouldn't even see it, but he would see it and start to turn....

Read a book on training young horses to do dressage movements where the principle is the same.....you shouldn't be able to see the command so the horse should appear to be doing everything with no input from the rider.......you find that the commands and pressures that they apply are big and exaggerated to start and then become smaller and smaller until they are almost invisible to the naked eye....

Pick one thing where you think you give the wrong signal to your dog and work on that....work out what you should do and retrain yourself first, then train the dog to pick up on it and reward - but only one at a time......I had to write a list of mine there were so many :D

Same in the show ring - I used to freestand Cadence ... in the end all I had to do was list 1° to the left or the right and he would move the front foot on that side forward slightly - but to teach it I had to start off using pressure on the lead and literally falling in that direction :p

[Kavik]

My problem is that my body language is different in different scenarios - for example at training vs mock trials. And they behave accordingly. And in new places if unsure I get stressed and I know my body language shows that - and the dogs muck up as a result. My fault. But how do I change that?

[Flames_Daddy]

Kavik you have forgotten more than I will ever know when it comes to dog training! I don't buy your modesty... but it IS CUTE!!

Seriously though, you make an excellent point. The dog, assuming you are the dominant entity in the relationship, looks to you for guidance on an emotional level. It picks up on your vibe, and if you're tense it inherits this state of mind... perhaps even triggering an elevated response because it is thinking of how best to please its master.

BTW I learned this from inspector rex last night... obviously we know its best when "the dog takes over control" :D

Edited May 11, 2007 by Flames_Daddy

[MonElite]

I have the same prob Kavik. My body posture is too all over the place when I train, I move waaaay too much, than when Im ready to be "trialed" I am as stiff as a broom stick and the dog freaks out.

[Rom]

I've been wondering about a whole different approach to this kind of problem.

Think of police or military dogs that are trained to comply to a signal command no matter what is happening or what is different in the environment. Consider that the handler may get injured or partially incapacitated during the exercise, but if he deploys the dog, the dog is still expected to comply even though the injury or incapacitation might hamper the signal or command. The other thing is that the handler in these real life exercises is very likely to be feeling stressed and anxious because of possible threat or danger, but the dog is still trained to comply regardless of how the handler is feeling or acting. In order to achieve this, how would you change the structure of your training program and the types and variety of distraction you may start training with?

I know of people whose dogs don't comply to a recall command unless they use a particular tone and pitch of voice. So what happens if you get a cold and your voice sounds different? Should we train for this possibility by putting a peg on our nose occasionally? Or do we train that come means come no matter what is happening with my voice. (Pity the poor kid going through puberty whose voice is cracking :p )

One thing that I saw that got me thinking on this was at a trial. Prior to going into the ring the handler tripped over and broke a couple of ribs on her left side. (She didn't realise at the time that her ribs were broken) She was very pale and obviously in pain, but she still entered the ring. She was holding her left arm tightly against her side, and she was listing and hunching a little in that direction in order to help with the pain in her side. The visual cues that she had to give with her left hand were very diluted and different. Her verbals were obviously a little strained and she could only give the recall signal by raising her right arm alone. Her dog still complied to everything she asked of him. You could see that he wasn't reacting to the signals/ as confidently as he normally would, but he still complied.

So do we teach the dog that heel means heel even if I'm hopping, swimming or staggering like a drunkard. That finish means finish even if I'm sitting on the ground or jumping up and down on the spot. Do we introduce so many varieties of movements and voice tones and pitches that the dog generalises the behaviour to all these possibilities?

Still thinking on this one

[Kavik]

That is a good idea Rom! I might try that.

My biggy (that I am getting help with from K9 Force next weekend) is how my body language affects my dog when meeting other dogs - with ones that can be reactive. If I am relaxed they are much better than if I am stressed, but I'm not sure how to change me. :p

[TangerineDream]

My problem is that my body language is different in different scenarios - for example at training vs mock trials. And they behave accordingly. And in new places if unsure I get stressed and I know my body language shows that - and the dogs muck up as a result. My fault. But how do I change that?

I'm standing next to Kavik on this one...I have the same 'problem' - cadence would bomb the long down in a trial but not a mock trial and it was because of my nerves in the real thing giving it away......

[PAX]

So do we teach the dog that heel means heel even if I'm hopping, swimming or staggering like a drunkard. That finish means finish even if I'm sitting on the ground or jumping up and down on the spot. Do we introduce so many varieties of movements and voice tones and pitches that the dog generalises the behaviour to all these possibilities?

Still thinking on this one :p

I think you should train a limp, acting like your drunk and what ever you can think of. If you use reward based training all these things are fun for the dog. This is one of things that we learnt at the Sue Hogben Seminar.

[Rom]

I'm not gonna question anything :p K9 Force :worship:says

(Infact, for any Qld'ers that are reading, I'm thinking of getting him back up here next year for a handlers workshop if you have any thoughts, opinions or ideas on the subject.)

But do I want to put another thought out there for Kavik and TD just cuz I'm playing around with some ideas.

The original criteria (as in TD's case) that was listed in the training goal for the long drop was basically that the dog held the position when commanded under any distractions for the set period of time. You have identified a training issue (and as Tony says above, you're half way to solving a problem once you've identify it) in that the dog breaks the long drop when you are feeling tense/anxious/nervous. So what if you go back to your training goal and add the new criteria of the dog must hold the position even when I am feeling tense/nervous/anxious.

How could you then break that criteria down so you could train for it from scratch? (I really do mean that as a question cuz I've got one idea but I'd like to hear others in case reasons that I haven't thought of give my idea a fatal flaw)

So, what if you identify other triggers for tense/anxious/nervous feelings eg. Blind date, getting married, starting new job, job interview...I dunno...help me expand on the list here and you start your long drop training from scratch again in an environment where you can control the consequences?

Still just thinking

[TangerineDream]

To complicate Cadence's long drop story....he initially got up when rolled on by a GSD having a good scratch, looked with horror at me and walked slowly across the ring and sat in front of the handler next to me.....from that day on he did that in every single trial I entered, but wouldn't do it in mock trials.....I never worked out how to fix that one...

[NaturallyWild]

One of the biggest things i learnt early on was that many people say that their dog "knows" what they should be doing and may justify using corrections because they are "proofing" their dog.

The first thing i say to these people is can you lie down on you stomach or can you stand 1cm from someone elses face and ask you dog to still do what you ask. To me it is very very unlikely that it will occur and means that more training is still needed.

This is hard to explain but to me training (during the "teaching" phase) should involve being consistent with the one cue (which needs to be very obvious) that you want the dog to respond to, but changing up all the other aspects as soon as possible. Many dogs can't tolerate much change in body language initially so small amount are initially included but once they get the idea that eg "sit means sit" and that is the only way to get a reward then you can do anything and everything eg stand on head, run away, hide behind tree and you still want to get what you have asked - to me this is proofing and still doesn't involve "corrections" but a no reward marker. At this point i would also consider simplifying the intial cue that was used (or variations to the cue) eg simpler hand signals or changes in voice.

[MonElite]

I know for example that I turn too much towards the dog, hence I give it a signal to lag behind me.

Those that know me would know that I wave my arms, that I train as a drunk etc.

What I mean is how do I not give the dogs wrong signals and confuse it? I guess the level of training Im at is not high enough for the 1 degree movements :p

Kavik Ill be happy to hear your discoveries after next weekend.

Rom I question everything anyone says, I find "conflicting" info amongst the best of the best all the time.

Edited May 11, 2007 by myszka

[NaturallyWild]

I know for example that I turn too much towards the dog, hence I give it a signal to lag behind me.

Those that know me would know that I wave my arms, that I train as a drunk etc.

What I mean is how do I not give the dogs wrong signals and confuse it? I guess the level of training Im at is not high enough for the 1 degree movements :p

Kavik Ill be happy to hear your discoveries after next weekend.

Rom I question everything anyone says, I find "conflicting" info amongst the best of the best all the time.

If there are signals that you know are causing the wrong response, deliberately work with those signals to change the meaning to what you want.

eg with the turning towards your dog which causes lagging.

to change this i would look at repeating that signal with a reward being made available closer up and beside you.

If it is heeling that you want that is not dependant on the position of your shoulders then think about what cue you do want your dog to respond to - eg direction of feet, angle of hips etc and reward for response to those (only give those cues).

Dogs will very simply give a response to a situation based on the "picture" they see and the rewards they receive (dependant on timing, location, frequency and level of reward). Think about upping the frequency of rewarding that you are giving.

If you are still not getting the response that you want, think about splitting the behaviours you are giving to being simpler and then building up from there.

[Guest Steph & Bam]

(Infact, for any Qld'ers that are reading, I'm thinking of getting him back up here next year for a handlers workshop if you have any thoughts, opinions or ideas on the subject.)

I'm in 210% :p If some instruction or guidance regarding drive training can be included that'd be brilliant!!!!

[dogdude]

Hi Myszka

Refering to your original post, I can see a very simple answer.

Don't place your dog in a ring until you have full confidence in both your dogs ability, and your own.

Train without the dog with an observer to get your movement problems sorted, then take a few steps back to fix all your small problems one by one. Crooked sits etc are not usually caused by body language, most often caused by two things, 1) where your dog has been taught to focus, and 2) where and when you reward from.

Manually adjusting a dog during an exercise with body language only encourages a lazy minded dog. How many handlers do you see that constantly back up their dogs to re-adjust a crooked sit. It only teaches them that you will always be there to help them, so no need to remember.

All you need to do is provide the drive, and show them how to satisfy it, by being in the correct position.

I personally would not proof for wonky walking or being drunk, or anything like that.

I know that you are very knowledgeable about dog training, but sometimes I think that we over complicate things, when most seemingly complex problems can be solved by going back to the basics. I know I have been guilty of that in the past.

[JulesP]

I suffered badly from nerves in the ring too. I just had my dog working 110% so that when she dropped points due to being worried about what the hell was wrong with Mummy she still got good scores.