stumped

Schutzhund is a sport, the police or army train for catching actual bad guys. If the dog has apprehended a real felon, then they need to hold him till the police restrain the person. It is just different training , rather than bad training.

As how I interact with my dogs is not influenced by any of the theories out there this is from an interest standpoint only. l have watched many dogs interact and often living in large numbers, but l will mention some things l have observed in cattle dogs not wild dogs but working dogs. There is no specific reward for any individual dog, just putting wild cattle in the pen. l am pleased they did it and instinct dictates that they do it. Now when they are out there working a large mob, l see them adopt the same role each time that is effective in getting the overall job done. One will work an opposite flank to me and steer the lead, one will work drag and push stragglers and one arcs from me out overseeing and applying power to control the herd, he will pull up runaways or immediately go to the aid of one of the others if it is challenged and a fight ensues. There is no reward for the dog that rushes to the fray when one of the dogs is in trouble, he may indeed be trampled and run over, and if the fight persists all will leave their post, uninstructed , and work together till it is quelled then return to their positions. Curiously if a dog in that team is injured , say the steering dog, and you insert another that normally works the tail within a short time one of those tail workers will adopt the flank and steering role. Something else l notice is the dog that is in charge of pulling up runaways is always the head dog at feed time, when they take a position in the truck or camp in the shade. All of these dogs work well together if you replace any of the team members but him, put two of those in and there will be a ruckus before one takes charge of that role. Now they dont eat these cattle and l feed them so no need to scavenge, just appears it sorts itself out so we get the cattle back to the yards. l enjoy working with them , whatever their reasons for doing it.

1, l whistle myself 2, Up to 2 km 3, High wind and thick cover can affect distance 4, Very good 5, multiple breeds of working and hunting dogs 6, Dogs are able to hear in pitches higher and lower than our effective range, and the whistle that operates in a pitch above the range of more common noises of voice and stock noises will therefore stand out to the dog , once associated with an action. l also prefer to use whistle commands as frustration, anger etc can not be relayed in a whistle, where as when you have to yell a command more often than not a gruff inflection is added which can confuse a dog when working.

No Tess, just similar names.

l appreciated that Mark offered something that may help , with suitable warnings. The OP could make use of it or not , l wonder why he was singled out . Mark l always thought you gave reasonable advice in a thoughtful manner , l think alternative solutions are really what forums are about. l dont see it as a competition , rather as an expression of different view points, and the OP then picks what they think suits their situation, l think it is a shame that one such viewpoint is now gone. l also enjoyed your posts

l would definitely contact MarkS , regards tmc.

l think if you're breeding for working ability you ought to work them.

GSD maybe you are tired, maybe you should not have done 2 courses, maybe you didnt really read Erny's answer. l only see one rude response and it does not come from Erny

Vickie, some of the best trainers l have known, probably would have had trouble reading some of the sentences in this thread, but they could read a dog. There are many sides to the story, but l think your original point was a good one and brought forward discussion, so its all good.

Yep pinnacle, it is easy, probably too easy,so it must be analyzed till it is difficult. On a separate note, what is the dog in your Avatar? regards Tony

The examples she gives, are not good , as Vickie says later. But the question is about conditioning a response with no outside reward or punishment, and it is usable, easy and has been done for years. No one is putting it up as a training method, it is just another tool that can be utilized , if something is occurring , with no input from yourself, why not add the normal cue as a reinforcement.

Point is we dont have to provide the stimulation to take advantage of it, if the dog feels like sitting , tired legs or not, and you say sit an association is formed, no external reward is needed. The OP said "without the person providing reward or punishment.."

The question was regarding, providing a reward or correction. l suppose if you examine anything there is a self serving reward, they breathe to stay alive, they walk to get somewhere, they lie down to rest, and so on, but indeed to form an association with an action they are carrying out , you do not need to reward or manipulate.

Does a bear cr*p in the woods if no one is there to watch it ? Dogs go through life every day without someone having to provide an "input" for every action. All dogs will sit, stand, lie down many times during any given day, they will do many things that can easily be associated with a word. This is just a component of training like any other.

l think the trend to over complicate the reasons , motivations and drives used for training dogs has clouded the fact that a dog will naturally do most basic activities we require for a well mannered dog. l f you are observant and have good timing you can form an association between a cue and an action with no need for reward or punishment. lt is just that, an association, and if a word or signal is related to a specific action enough times, they become linked.

l start the day l get my puppy home. l take it for a walk, then l stand still , the pup notices you have stopped returns to you , after a short time it lies down , at which point l say down. l give it a little rest , say OK , then walk off. Takes about 3 outings and the association is linked. regards Tony

l have never had a call to go muster someones rags, so l wouldnt use a rag in training, l think the way they move it is not stock like and at best it would show a desire to chase , which most breeds will do, nothing to do with work. Herding is not chasing.

Good job SM, you can see the shape of his cast is correct in that practice, you just need to keep him off a bit around the back, stop him and back up to give him a "lift" by letting him advance only until the sheep move and stop him , this cuts down on the rushing in. Good luck with him and well done for videoing and working to improve, hopefully you will get some good help from someone that can watch the dog work first hand, easier to judge what needs to be worked on, l love working dogs, Tony

The least complicated way is to be in line with the stock, then just whssh him to go, he cant go wrong way then, as he commits to a direction, move towards the stock and a little in to him to get the slightest kick out as he passes you heading to the sheep, any deviation is a plus and you can give it a nome at this point if you wish . Then basically, follow his path to encourage him to go right round to a nice position and as you can stop him, pull him up as you back away , so he has somewhere to bring them and thinks you sent him further than you did, it is about his perception of the job. regards Tony

Superminty, just going by the video, it is a reinforcement of the straight approach he has to have him advance with you before sending him. He wants to work and you block him with the pipe and start to work towards the sheep, so his desire to start work is rewarded by a straight advance, which will programme in a straight advance. Then as you get closer you actually send him from in front of you, so he is fully focused on getting to the stock without you in the picture, better to stop him advance a little yourself, so that his primary focus when starting his cast is you, and he actually starts his cast by having to head either right or left and knows he is going to get the sheep, for you. Just observations from that footage, nice dog. regards Tony

CTD l think your pup seemed to be enjoying itself and showed some good instinct. l take my first look at my pups @ 8 wks, there is no pressure on them as l ask nothing of them, l am just there as support and as an observer. There is no working associations in the pup at this age so all you see is instinct. lf there is nothing you just pick them up and leave, if they work you observe and remember what was their natural approach, takes a minute or 2 , max. Next time l look is 12 wks, this time we will see what the first go meant to the pup, does it burst with drive to go back to work, what are its priorities, movement or containment, make sure the stock are suitable for its size and athleticism, we take note... is it fumble footed and needs a few more wks, or is it keen fast and ready for a look again in a wk. This is the time when you can easily imprint what stock it can work, that you provide that work, every move it makes can be given a name and the basics are building a broad foundation, all in a few minutes. Stay with your stock, move to support the pup when needed , you finish long before enthusiasm drops or fatigue sets in and you are building a work ethic. As long as moderation and control of the situation are observed , l believe there are many positives to an early foundation.

sorry for the confusion re whose dog, l clicked on link as l was reading Vickies post. However does not alter what was happening . Nothing wrong with the little dog , but it is important early in work to send the right messages. A round yard is ok if you use it properly and for very young dogs, l prefer to quickly get out to where there is more room to work and where there is a consequence to poor placement. A dog quicly learns in a round yard, that if you bump them , voila they run and end up right back with you. l prefer to change what the stock are doing and for a dog to see that as a reason to change his position, rather than learn that you run until a rake blocks you and do an about turn, when you get old and slow like me, perhaps the rake might help manipulate the stock.

Vickie, the thing l dont like about round yards is evidenced very well in your video 1. The pup is circling in one direction so that it appears to be learning a direction, but in actual fact it does nothing but follow sheep the whole time. then when changed direction in vid 2 it just follows the other way, but from a dogs point of view it is the same thing, being encouraged to follow sheep, which then when let outside would show up as failing to head its sheep. The second thing l dont like is the rake, it teaches avoidance not balance, takes the pups attention off the stock, again in your video you will see there were several chances to change the stock movement by body placement and hence adjust the pup as a reaction to stock movement but as the handler is concentrating on using the rake to change direction, he misses the opportunities, l like natural myself, use a smaller yard but not round , easier to see if the dog is actually getting to balance or not, regards Tony

That is a pretty bulky haul Jeff, for just the opportunist thief, a bite suit wouldn't look like a quick resale item. lt is a shame that has happened and probably a dog person of sorts to. Shall keep an eye out, not too many of those suits around here, takes a while, and hard earned, to build up good gear, Tony

Nekhbet, never said the dog wanted to attack the handler,but he did get bit, for whatever reason, and this act could have cost him or another person dearly. Again l say that the bad guy was still and you can hear the handler talking to the dog, their was no need for a bite on a tug even, the dog should have still been watching the bad guy, as you say it is work and a working dog should be job ready. Shite does happen, and that was shite that should be trained for and avoided, the dog was not in the heat of battle and should not have considered it extreme stress, again l point out that the bad guy was motionless , and the handler had grabbed the dog and was settling it , it bit him hard enough to cause him to swing the dog around , at which point the terrorist could have rolled over removed a weapon and fired, l am only evaluating it as l see it , a lot of exceptional stuff and some poor actions as well, training is for the purpose of testing and improvement, and to get ready for the real work.