stumped

Schutzhund is a sport, the police or army train for catching actual bad guys. If the dog has apprehended a real felon, then they need to hold him till the police restrain the person. It is just different training , rather than bad training.

As how I interact with my dogs is not influenced by any of the theories out there this is from an interest standpoint only. l have watched many dogs interact and often living in large numbers, but l will mention some things l have observed in cattle dogs not wild dogs but working dogs. There is no specific reward for any individual dog, just putting wild cattle in the pen. l am pleased they did it and instinct dictates that they do it. Now when they are out there working a large mob, l see them adopt the same role each time that is effective in getting the overall job done. One will work an opposite flank to me and steer the lead, one will work drag and push stragglers and one arcs from me out overseeing and applying power to control the herd, he will pull up runaways or immediately go to the aid of one of the others if it is challenged and a fight ensues. There is no reward for the dog that rushes to the fray when one of the dogs is in trouble, he may indeed be trampled and run over, and if the fight persists all will leave their post, uninstructed , and work together till it is quelled then return to their positions. Curiously if a dog in that team is injured , say the steering dog, and you insert another that normally works the tail within a short time one of those tail workers will adopt the flank and steering role. Something else l notice is the dog that is in charge of pulling up runaways is always the head dog at feed time, when they take a position in the truck or camp in the shade. All of these dogs work well together if you replace any of the team members but him, put two of those in and there will be a ruckus before one takes charge of that role. Now they dont eat these cattle and l feed them so no need to scavenge, just appears it sorts itself out so we get the cattle back to the yards. l enjoy working with them , whatever their reasons for doing it.

1, l whistle myself 2, Up to 2 km 3, High wind and thick cover can affect distance 4, Very good 5, multiple breeds of working and hunting dogs 6, Dogs are able to hear in pitches higher and lower than our effective range, and the whistle that operates in a pitch above the range of more common noises of voice and stock noises will therefore stand out to the dog , once associated with an action. l also prefer to use whistle commands as frustration, anger etc can not be relayed in a whistle, where as when you have to yell a command more often than not a gruff inflection is added which can confuse a dog when working.

No Tess, just similar names.

l appreciated that Mark offered something that may help , with suitable warnings. The OP could make use of it or not , l wonder why he was singled out . Mark l always thought you gave reasonable advice in a thoughtful manner , l think alternative solutions are really what forums are about. l dont see it as a competition , rather as an expression of different view points, and the OP then picks what they think suits their situation, l think it is a shame that one such viewpoint is now gone. l also enjoyed your posts

l would definitely contact MarkS , regards tmc.

l think if you're breeding for working ability you ought to work them.

GSD maybe you are tired, maybe you should not have done 2 courses, maybe you didnt really read Erny's answer. l only see one rude response and it does not come from Erny

Vickie, some of the best trainers l have known, probably would have had trouble reading some of the sentences in this thread, but they could read a dog. There are many sides to the story, but l think your original point was a good one and brought forward discussion, so its all good.

Yep pinnacle, it is easy, probably too easy,so it must be analyzed till it is difficult. On a separate note, what is the dog in your Avatar? regards Tony

The examples she gives, are not good , as Vickie says later. But the question is about conditioning a response with no outside reward or punishment, and it is usable, easy and has been done for years. No one is putting it up as a training method, it is just another tool that can be utilized , if something is occurring , with no input from yourself, why not add the normal cue as a reinforcement.

Point is we dont have to provide the stimulation to take advantage of it, if the dog feels like sitting , tired legs or not, and you say sit an association is formed, no external reward is needed. The OP said "without the person providing reward or punishment.."

The question was regarding, providing a reward or correction. l suppose if you examine anything there is a self serving reward, they breathe to stay alive, they walk to get somewhere, they lie down to rest, and so on, but indeed to form an association with an action they are carrying out , you do not need to reward or manipulate.

Does a bear cr*p in the woods if no one is there to watch it ? Dogs go through life every day without someone having to provide an "input" for every action. All dogs will sit, stand, lie down many times during any given day, they will do many things that can easily be associated with a word. This is just a component of training like any other.

l think the trend to over complicate the reasons , motivations and drives used for training dogs has clouded the fact that a dog will naturally do most basic activities we require for a well mannered dog. l f you are observant and have good timing you can form an association between a cue and an action with no need for reward or punishment. lt is just that, an association, and if a word or signal is related to a specific action enough times, they become linked.