bridgie_cat

it is a sample. simple statistics - it will not necessarily be the true result - but it will be an indication of what is likely to be the true result - the larger the sample (ie more dogs tested) the more accurate the estimation will be as to the overall hip quality of the family. Equally, if you tested 2 pups from a litter and have 2 very similar hip scores as oposed to one very low and one very high that even out to the same as the two similar ones, then statistically you have a better estimation with the 2 similar ones - with a larger range/more variation within a sample (one high, one low), you are less likely to be seeing a true representation of the population... Certainly it is a hell of a lot better than not testing any of them!

Leo - they say great minds think alike - my guess is that crazy ones do too :rofl:

yup for all the dog sport nuts who dont visit the show forum to share their ped names! Also good fun sharing back end titles (not that we have any!!! yet hehe)

Lana is Ahanu Regal Dream we were expecting a little princess and first day here she burped that was the end of that dream!

start clicking with the clicker hidden in your pocket. Also - dont ever have food in sight. He doesnt know when you will have food and when you dont! (same with clicker - as yes, clicker = food to them!) ALWAYS click and TREAT - it is v important that the clicker is only used as a bridge between the behaviour and reward and never as a reward in itself! a treat can be food or a toy... praise not so much... a game - YES ... the thing is you have to condition them to accept each of these things as a reward for a behaviour. Then anything that = a reward to them, you can stick after the clicker! The VALUE of each reward must be evaluated (ie how much do they want each thing - perhaps food is worth more to them than a game - perhaps they have one toy that they will do backflips for etc etc) and when teaching a new or tricky behaviour, use a higher value reward - old stuff, use a lesser reward... As he gets REALLY confident with a behaviour - start lessening the amt of times you CLICK and TREAT for it - and you can stop using the clicker once the behaviour is established - add a CUE to it and once it is solid, start just treating for it (ie no clicker - just food or a toy... a lot of the time it can just be acknowledging that it was correct with a "good boy") - lessen the amt of treats he is getting for the behaviour until you are only rewarding once in a while... eg - an automatic sit I used to reward EVERY time - as we were establishing it... now - I will only reward at random if at all. Do not start lessening the treats until he knows what is expected of him - in the early stages, no treat can be translated to "you did it wrong" and you could take steps backwards - also, early stages you are still getting him really keen on the task - so until you have this it is easy for the task to become a chore instead of a fun game if there arent enough rewards... Bridget

ok - being a new thing (and from what you say is getting worse), definitely go get her checked out at the vet. hope you find out what is hapening - try writing down all the symptoms you are seeing, any changes in other areas of her life in the last few months, what does she look like when she starts slowing down? funny gait? what you are feeding. take the list with you to the vet as this will help you remember everything and help them diagnose any possible issues! looking forward to seeing pics! Bridget

welcome to DOL abbey! Come join the Sheltie/collie thread in the "breed sub forum" in general!!! Photos are a MUST This sounds odd, as being a working breed shelties should be up for a much longer walk than that - is she going nuts in this first 25mins or is it a leisurly walk? It is quite possible that she is just not as active by nature - but if she seems to be in any pain at this stage of the walk it could be worth seeing the vet about... how quickly does she recover after a walk? how often do you walk? has this always been the case, or a recent change? it is probably just her... it could be diet related (what are you feeding? although, considering your other sheltie is fine this is probably not the issue...)... if you are going on regular walks of a similar length then it is unlikely to that she is just unfit ... if not - perhaps you need to build up to longer walks gradually to build fitness ... what colours are your shelties?

our club has a 12mnth rule for dogs jumping and doing full size contacts - BUT there is a lot of fun foundation work you can do to give you a headstart AND set the scene for all your dogs future learning/agility success! It is not about teaching actual obstacles, it is about teaching your dog the mindset for training (ie getting them KEEN to train with you - and it is a great benefit to teach pups to take all manner of food AND TOYS as rewards for doing tricks!) A book I just read and LOVED is Susan Garrett's Shaping Success - told as the story of her latest dog so an easy read - and full of puppy games that teach your dog a lot of the agility foundation stuff while you are both having fun! ... obedience is great also and can be done from a very young age - so give that a go - even if you dont want to stick with it to trialing stage, it is great socialising and relationship building stuff for you puppy! Bridget

UP the rewards - ie make em better (does she like a certain toy OR bbq chicken or something??) AND more often! Dont worry about how accurate she is doing anything - just as long as she is trying, reward the enthusiasm! When she is really keen!!! THEN start rewarding for more specific stuff... It is easy to make the mistake of making things too hard & while you wait for a correct behaviour, the dog gets frustrated/loses interest...

must agree here - not so much for a random behaviour after the click (like you peeing eg) - but if the click ends the behaviour and in coming to get the treat they are constantly doing something (like sitting or a particular way of leaving the obstacle) - whilst the click is saying YES that is right - the treat is the main reinforcer and could be saying YES that bit was also right! ... depends if it becomes a habit - I am not so proficient with the system/havent been going long enough that I have experienced this - but understand the theory... more so if it is a habit formed during the training... the skewed jumping I would not think is a learned trick from the clicker - more to do with the direction the dog is coming from and where it thinks it is going - OR if it is watching the handler - thus jumps a bit skewed...

Personally, the clicker has more set rules for ME - so it is a more consistent thing for Lana - I have a release word "OK", which has a consistent consequence so she understands this perfectly. Had I used "YES" like the clicker - she would (I assume) understand it also and it would work like the clicker... The benefit of the clicker over a definite YES, in my mind, is that it sounds VERY different to anything we are going to say - and for someone who talks a lot in training, it is just easier for the dog to discern! Also, it is a shorter, sharper sound & perhaps easier to time for some (not that YES is hard!) - so just a slightly clearer maker... downside = another thing to carry!

I have found it great for teaching new behaviours/obstacles... and it ends behaviour and a treat after every click. I used it for a little while during agility runs, but stopped because it made less sense to click for an entire run than it did to click for an exact movement... still bring it out if the run includes an obstacle we are learning at the time. I use "yes" as a mark that she is doing it right - but keep going - for obstacles with several parts and the CLICK for the complete obstacle (or CLICK for complete up to where we have learnt at that point...) as it ends behaviour - still attempt to feed in position though... Good points: -Creates enthusiasm -More definite than "yes" - ie pinpoints the movement & sounds like nothing else so she KNOWS to come get a treat -Better and faster understanding than I have gotten by leading with food or placing in position as she is thinking about what she is doing that is getting her clicks! -Training is fast and fun for both of us! The step by step build = lots of correct reps and less frustrating than corrections or having to ignore lots of incorrect attempts at more complex behaviours... if that made sense! Bad points: -My unco self = bad at holding treats, clicker AND directing the dog... -Impatient as I am, I am often too tempted to jump ahead steps... the correct build and proofing of each step takes a while... Overall - reallly happy that I was introduced to this method of training! Dont even have to use the clicker - it is the theory behind it that is good.

yup - certainly it is a lot of fun - these chooks are partcularly crazy (although any chook would be v crazy in these circumstances) - and being bantams are the perfect size too. Have reinforced the run and no longer allowing him such freedom out there. Biggest issue is that I would hate for Lana to start this game - she is herding ducks... but I think if she was taught the killing game there would be no going back! Luckily she was not out with him for the masacre. Just thought I would ask incase anyone had any good suggestions - but already knew it was instinctual and a self reinforcing behaviour and having done it a few times is deferz nice and solid in there... oh well - will just take better measures to separate him from the chooks! Thanks for the replies! Bridget isaviz - have you been talking to my mum?! she has been gunning for those chooks to go for ages! ... quite frankly they eat food all year and only lay eggs for a couple weeks - and when they do we cant eat enough to keep up! ... then they stop again quite useless creatures!

you can chop up sausages and put them in the oven for a bit to dry them out and make them nicer for carrying with you! ... or get a treat bag so you can chuck any messy treats in there! Lana likes cheese, bbq chicken, liver treats (these are v clean - they dont ge AS crazy for them - but still v good)... there is one that is v good - it is Jer-Hi I think... it is like a jerki chicken brest style stick - easy to carry with you and lasts for ages... my only prop is that it doesnt say salt content & generally this is an issue with jerki style meats... but Lana loves it! (fed in moderation due to ?? on salt)

welcome to DOL Native Metal! Your puppy is very cute - what is her name? check out the "breed sub forum" in general for the "shelties, collies and anything crossed thread" - and there is a thread for sheltie puppies in the "photos" forum also! Lots of sheltie owners in there and we would all love to watch your little girl as she grows! No - the tail being curled up over the back is a fault in the standard - were you planning on showing her? I have no experience with this in puppies so am not sure if it is something that will correct itself as she grows - certainly I do not think there is anything you can do to the tail to correct it (being part of the spine - not a good idea to play with it for asthetic purposes) - it shouldnt give her any troubles though You will get some great advice on here - the other option (if you are really worried about it) is to go and talk to her breeder about it! Bridget

love that bit of info about "shyness" being easily inherited! If breeders knew this perhaps they would not be so quick to breed for a few v poor temp but pretty dogs, in hopes of fixing temp with a dif dog later... although - I think there is potential for such a study to miss the mother's impact on the temps... you would have to do matings of shy dogs to outgoing bitches and see what the pups were like... OR shy dog + bitch and then swap the pups onto an outgoing bitch for raising... the results of such experiments would be very interesting... perhaps they did this anyways to come up with a scientificly sound result...

im so sorry for your loss she looks like she was a real sweet heart.

umm... guilt is the wrong word... but he understands that what he did = makes us angry - not so much that it was morally wrong - ie he understands that breaking the rules we have set out has consequences thus he has a very worried look on his face when he knows he has broken a rule - do you know what I mean?? Mono - we once had a blue heeler kill a chook and had this method recommended... to cut a long story short, he ate the chook and was VERY pleased with himself ... dont think he continued to kill chooks... certainly woulda been yelled at so that probably did it... not the tying around the neck thing! crittering looks ok... the difference being that he wouldnt link us to the punishment... so our absence may be less of an issue... hmmm...

Heya My guess is that there is not a lot that can be done in our case past better supervision and separation measures - but if someone on here has a good idea for possible training solutions - it would be very appreciated... Our 7 yo Jack russel X fox terrier (with long legs... thinking big fox terrier X) had another chicken killing rampage this morning - took out three hens & injured more... woulda been a masacre had the gardener not gotten mum down to get him... This is certainly not a first - but it is the only one in the last couple of years (we had hoped he had grown out of it!). The chooks are locked up 24/7 but for a determined dog they are not unreachable - the dog is locked in the backyard unless supervised, which he was today - but by the gardener instead of mum - aparently this is not the same controlling force (he would never dare touch a chook with mum around!) - and is on ocasion out because he sneaks off while with mum... He is of the mentality that "if they cant see, I can do what I like" - he absolutely knows that he isnt allowed to chase chooks, he isnt allowed to run away etc - but if he thinks we cant see him then he discards these rules. (my fav eg is when he has run off at night, will run around the house barking until someone comes out to call him - suddenly there is silence...) Often after breaking a rule he will come back acting very guilty - even if we dont know anything is up - so he definitely understands... So we have always been VERY strict about him taking any interest in chooks in hopes of scaring him off them - but again - if we are around he is meek and will not look at the chooks - as soon as he thinks he is alone - he makes his own rules. My guess is that having already done this a few times that it is a learnt thing - he can get away with it if we dont see him doing it - cant very well change it if he only does it when we are not around! Any training ideas - can anything be done? We are not sure where to go from here... We are keeping him no matter what - we are going to try our best to keep them separated as we have always done - but in the event that he gets another chance, a training based solution could save a chicken in the future... Bridget

oops...

Certainly I can improve a LOT in all areas - but the worst is herding!!!

ummm... I have only had minor issues of this nature... so cant be of great help... Are you using high value treats to get her into training? Or - what method of training are you using at the moment? With timid dogs, the important thing is that you dont give them any attention for their antics - you show them there is nothing to worry about and hopefully this will help with their confidence - if instead of focusing on making everything calm and slow so as not to frighten her - perhaps try and see if you can get her excited about doing tricks for you with some roast chicken or something she loves - doesnt have to be any obed work - teach her turn around (this is fun and easy for the dog) or shake... not so much drop as this is putting her in a submisive position again - and give her lots of treats and praise and see if you can get her to enjoy training a bit... if you can get this going then you may have better luck moving into obed work using treats... That is JMO - im sure you will get all the experienced trainers in here to give better advice soon! Good luck! ETA - short and sweet training sessions - finish on a happy note - if you are starting to get frustrated (which can easily happen with probs like this!) STOP - dont let a dog like this know that you are not happy!!!

only if I am planning to feed treats later that day ... so dont really fast over here... dont doubt that it wouldnt do any harm - just dont see a lot of point in it...

I think past six weeks (for a normal preg - for small litter that doesnt show could be diff) it wouldnt matter if there was a rule or not - they wouldnt be very competitive

I didnt actually think they were allowed to compete while potentially preggers (not that anyone would know for the first few weeks!!! If no test can tell if dog = preg then I cant imagine it being an issue with the other dogs) - also know a lot of people dont like having preg dogs out in high risk of contamination areas for the first 4 wks - was told it = bad in this part of development... have more recently (after Lana did an injury) been discussing the possibility of increased injury probs during pregnancy - not that she was preg but was simply musing about that idea in relation to seasons also... Having said that - I think that to continue with a similar or slightly lessened (never pushing to more than usual or more than they want to do) training is fine - they need to keep up muscle tone to make delivery easier anyways - if dogs had to become instant coach potatoes to successfully carry a pregnancy then I think the species wouldnt be around so much... so I would train (as long as she was happy and most likely on small jumps or no jumps if this was an issue) but would not trial - thought there was a rule on that honestly... perhaps that is just our club (and possibly more for the safety of the bitch from disease than for the distraction factor - not sure) Bridget