bridgie_cat

I am at a club that has almost 100% correction trainers. They use choke chains for obed. The do roll dogs on occasion (only some trainers - and never to students dogs) and do scruff dogs etc - but it is more about a dominant display than actually causing pain. There is nothing that they do that I think would cause anything more than a bit of discomfort (eg tugs on the choke chain etc) ... I did not switch to mostly positive because I didnt want to hurt my dog. I switched because of the wonderful attitude it gives Lana to training! I got faster results and it was loads of fun for both of us. She now wants to be with me and loves her obedience work... The only reason I do not want to go back to the corrections is because I do not want to loose any of this sparkle and I do not want her to associate obed with bad things. The other trainers are getting results with their method and it certainly translates well to the ring - since they dont have to fade treats etc - so it is not that I cant see the other one working and I do not see any of these dogs being hurt - they are told off and they bounce right back into their work. (I do wish they could see a positive trained dog work well in the ring - Lana isnt there yet and they are quite sure that I am going to fall on my face with the methods im using... they dont believe a dog will work in the ring if trained positively) It is just that I enjoy the training and attitude that you get with positive so much more! Bridget

*bump* oh dru ;) Im sorry, I have no experience with this. I am sending wishes your way that it is nothing serious. Try not to worry at this point - stop researching it, that will just make you worry more - wait for the vet to give you an actual answer - that is the best thing you can do... Im sorry I cant be any help. Bridget

hello - I too have a 15" sheltie girl - athletic build - so probably pretty similar to your gal - she was 8.6kg when I last checked - and that was carrying a little more than I would like for agility purposes... but if she wasnt doing all the jumping etc she would be at a good pet weight. Rather than actual weight I go by how she feels - you should be able to feel some ribs through a thin layer of fat - if you have to dig then there is too much fat my girl is VERY food oriented though... I tend to feed majority meat rather than dry - at the moment she gets a handfull of dry food in the morning - and the equivalent of 2-3 chicken necks at night - but I swap between lamb flaps, chicken necks, chicken wings, red mince, occasionally processed foods like lamb chunkers etc... essentially whatever meat is in the house! (usually necks) ... and on occasion I will make a meal of cooked eggs etc... If we are training that day then dry food is left out and she will either eat her meal in treats (bbq chicken, fritz, cooked lamb or steak, cheese) or if we dont do much she gets some necks etc... If she likes eating chicken/beef/kangaroo mince then you could mix that in with the dry... we went through a small patch of Lana refusing to eat her dry unless I put kitty milk on it Come join the "shelties, collies and anything crossed" thread in the Breed Sub Forum that is in General look forward to hearing more about your sheltie! Bridget

there are some great DVDs out there... Patty Ruzzo has 2 - "the power of positive training" and "proof positive" - really enjoyed these and are a great look at positive training in obed (most pos. training DVDs are on agility - so thought these were pretty special)... Another that was good is Mary Ray - who did a puppy through to crufts obedience set - again, all positive... Have you spoken to the local vets or council? Odds are the people on here simply are not familiar with the dog school(s) in that area... good luck!

why not just ask the school? If you make it clear that you wouldnt leave mess out there etc they may be happy to let you practice there...

back yard. but depending on your dog (ie trustworthy without a fence or lead!) you could go down to a park... or if you are lucky and have a fenced area you could go to?? dog park wouldnt work v well... sport oval of some sort that you could sneak onto?? or you could talk to local council and see what public areas they think you should use?? (is this their job to ensure there are suitable areas like this for people to use?? not sure..)

hmm... I suppose I would just like the chance to enter some trials! That is the best I can hope for since I will be going to uni and leaving her with the family for the year

if it is an option, definitely better to hold them simply so their first experience in the crate (and possibly car) is not a stressful one...

I believe Hesa has done it with her shelties I havnt been to it before - but would love to in the future - my understanding was that it is for any dog that likes to run!

agility, lure coursing, endurance tests...

;) woo hoo! go whisper!!!

Certainly it is what works for the individual DOG... BUT - I also think it is alot to do with what the TRAINER is comfortable with/good at etc... most of the training methods work, some better than others perhaps - but at the end of the day it needs to be something you enjoy, understand (and/or actually believe works!) and are willing to do lots of! Bridget

Susan Garrett's "shaping success" is a book I highly recommend. She deals with a CRAZY border and does a lot of control stuff with him... To incorporate the kong: Start SMALL!!! Ask for a sit... she sits CALMLY - you throw the kong! Build this up to a few sits or a sit and a drop and any other trick she knows... and then she gets the treat! Will she bring it back to you? As then it becomes a few tricks, throw the kong, back to training etc... Now - once she knows she does tricks to get what she wants (the kong) - build it into walks or anything else you want her doing... if she is being crazy... just wait - or move away from what is making her silly... when she is calmly doing what you want (walking on lead perhaps) - tell her how good she is and have a game with the kong! The idea is that you DONT reward her when she is crazy - dont punish - just ignore... she can only earn her kong if she is doing so sensibly... and again, only ask for a little bit of quiet at first so she gets the idea of WHAT you want... then build on it! Many examples will be dogs going crazy and pulling their owners toward the park or the beach barking like mad etc... if she has an AIM with her craziness... then the idea is that you ONLY move forward (towards the reward) when they are quiet... if they are barking - stop... wait... they should work out reasonably soon that if they want to get to that place then the only way to get there is silence... so in this scenario, moving forward is the reward... but if she has no goal such as this, then you reward her with the kong!

Does she get very excited on the walks? Lana will run next to me and nip at my pant leg/hands etc if she gets over excited during a game or just fast pace heeling... it is nothing to do with aggression in this case - it is herding behaviour and her idea of a good game. A training issue if you want it to stop... so use them in training!!!!! Balls are GREAT to use as motivational toys - esp for agility! But also in obedience... wait till she offers something you want (start easy like a sit) and then throw the ball! Moving toys can be great for building control + excitement for otherwise boring activities like stays or heeling...

This is an odd thing to say on the vets part. Did either behaviouralist express this concern? IMO that means you have to train it differently - make it worth her time to listen to you... obviously becoming the leader of the pack with this dog would be a priority. But I would think that if you can find something she wants (be it toy or extra good food etc) then you should be able to work from there and fade the rewards later on etc... What has been your experience with her ability to learn and follow instructions up until now? Have you done any training with her yet? Also factor in that puppies ARE going to be badly behaved... But all this is beside the point if she is messing with the family dynamic and not getting on with your other dogs etc... If you definitely do not want to persevere with the prob/or dont see it improving with respect to the other dogs - then the breeder is the person to either: take the dog back as she has expressed an interest in showing her OR is a good person for her to go to to be rehomed to another family (as often the breeder will have a waiting list, will know who to talk to and will know what to look for in a suitable home for the individual dog etc) Is it dominance biting or fear biting?? She bit you and ran to the car? sounds like fear... and being small she could be biting other dogs as a way to get them to back off (this being with other dogs - not your own)... just a thought... I think as they grow up you get a period of challenging for the top dog spot... but once she claims the title she should settle down towards your other dog - if this is all it is... eta - also interested to know what sort of biting it is... my sheltie can be right in the face of other dogs: barking, growling, pulling fur, mouthing/nipping (but not biting) - she loves it - but it is definitely herding behaviour...

WOW - WELL DONE PTOLOMY!!! I believe dogdude has a brag but I will leave him to that! Terrible day today - but I was proud of her yesterday - 1st place and our first pass in ADX, 2nd place and our second pass in JD, and our first trial and first pass in CD (2nd place - but only 175 ;) ) and she only got her CCD the w/e before!!!

I like the idea of training him to like the clicker - even if you decide not to use it later - at least you will overcome any issues you would face with other people clicking during training! Perhaps start with a softer click (clicky pen, juice bottle top, the other brand of clicker ...) but I would think you would want to build as he gets used to each until you have him happy with the box also - since you dont really want them freaking at any of the noises you are likely to hear at training... good post Shellybeggs! That method sounds good! Bridget

from the view of keeping true to the breed and its original work etc - no, you could not say this is true for all breeds... (although I feel it does test many of the traits that are valued in a working dog for my breed and I would think parts of it would apply to many working breeds) and certainly not 100% true for any breed - since I dont think any dog has been developed with agility as the goal... but if only real farmers, or people willing to work their dogs as real farm dogs, bred with a focus on improving/maintaining working aspects of the breed - you would have a significantly smaller % of the breed population that was kept with some similarity in temperament to a true working dog... that, I think, would be a terrible loss for the breed as a whole. IMO working in agility/obedience is a far better indicator than doing nothing with a dog and then trying to select for working traits! I absolutely believe in the the value of genetics in temperament and also feel that agility/obed have their place in the selection of good working temperaments. ETA - Vickie - IMO dogs from working lines (and I mean REAL work) share many traits that make good agility dogs and vice versa - which is why I think selecting for skill in any challenging training arena will inevitably maintain at least SOME of the original traits selected for in real working dogs... so if your dogs are bred for real work and this carries over into agility skill - I think that is a good advertisement for agility as a possible selection criteria that will maintain some of the original working traits... It all comes down to what the breeder sees as correct and how they prioritise in their breeding program - doesnt matter how the select for it (although some methods will be more accurate than others) - working them on a real farm or in a dog sport wont change the genes - it only makes it easier to see what you are working with...

that is certainly what makes it difficult in practice! With relatively few dogs competing and with so much of it depending on training... it is hard to know if a) the great dogs you are seeing are the product of good genes or if they are not the norm for those lines... and b) if the numerous lines that do not have dogs in top performance homes could have the same or more potential - and another line could have other benefits in soundness or conformation that you also need to keep in mind when breeding etc...

I feel that the increased number of dogs with trialling potential in certain breeds (working dogs, BCs especially) is all the evidence needed to say that: YES - you CAN breed for a better working/trialling temperament - otherwise, why are dogs so different in temperament as a whole? yup, you can have a good one or a bad one in any breed - but you need to look at the overall picture. This is of course on a large scale... but it must them be assumed that it will still work on a smaller scale (ie two tallented dogs of the same breed) but that a) the results will be less obvious, especially in the first couple of generations and b) that it still follows the rules of genetics, where it is a lot of luck if you acutally get the desired gene passed onto the pups and not the numerous other combinations carried by the parents - this goes even more so for temperament traits as it is not as strictly selected for and incorrect temp traits eliminated as the conf traits are... if that makes sense... factor in how much harder it is to select for temp since it is so hugely affected by environment! Of course, titles are not necessarily a good indicator of this... they are a start, yes... but you can look at two dogs - one a velcro dog that has taken many trials to get a few Qs in the set time, and another that works away from the handler and completes their run way under time etc... both end up with the same title... but I know which genes I want to continue on! Herding instinct is something that cannot be trained into a dog that just doesnt have it - so that would be perhaps an easier one to select for... As to "what is a smart dog" - certainly we are talking about a TRAINABLE dog - I have a sheltie and a terrier... and sometimes I wonder if the terrier is more intelligent - but my god he is just untrainable!!! and for this reason we label him "dumb" etc, when infact he is stubborn, nervous, lacking in drive... but when selecting to get dogs with working potential you are looking at a number of traits, with actual intelligence as only a small part of it (and I doubt there is any way to actually compare intelligence between dogs - perhaps speed at which they learn?). I know myself that I meet dogs from particular parents or lines and some are more outgoing, more energetic, more focused (whether there is a genetic component to that?? not sure) - and I absolutely think the POTENTIAL to be great at the various sports is genetic... I think definitely YES - but with more selecting factors than simply a title - just like with conformation champs - being a champ doesnt make them breeding material and they dont just go to any other champ - you look at the pedigree and the individuals strengths and weaknesses etc - you would do the same for temperament if you had the information available! eta - as others have said, by no means would all the pups be an improvement... the idea is that by breeding two above average dogs together - you will produce some the same, some worse and if you are lucky some better! As you breed on only the best, the avg becomes better - and the "worst" pups in a litter become better than the "worst" pups in a litter previously - the best dogs become better... etc etc ...

good luck with the preg Helen! Hoping for lots of tallented puppies for you + bella!!! Lana got her CCD title today with a 96 and 1st place she sat on a stand during the heel pattern - but I was soooo happy with everything else - really focused and DIDNT LAG (for once!) im so happy with her run today! Bridget

it is also good if you can train him to enjoy (or at least put up with!) being brushed - makes it easier on both of you - then it is more likely to happen more often! Have him lie on his side and just do a little bit of brushing where you know you wont upset him - then say OK and let him get up and give him treats or play a game etc - you want to be able to build this up so that he will eventually lie still and be brushed until you release him! I have used the thinning scissors on the thick hair behind Lana's legs - makes it much easier to brush. If you leave the first layer and just thin under that then you dont even see that you have done anything... it looks pretty normal with the thinning scissors anyway.

I use... BBQ chicken Norskgra's Liver bread recipe ANY form of meat chopped up Cheese Sausage Fritz Dried liver treats (although these are not as high value it seems... soft treats seem better) anything she likes!!! but most often it is chicken, cheese or chopped meat.

no they shouldnt... but hey - you can clip anything if you really wanted to :p a lady at our dog club used to have shelties that she clipped occasionally... im sure they would love it - much cooler without the coat... but they would look funny! You can use thinning scissors on the thicker areas if you want to make brushing them a bit easier...

here is Lana with her trophies from the mt g trial :rolleyes: