toy dog

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem? Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL http://www.ibelieveinadv.com/2009/06/lifebuoy-handwash-dog/ http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2011/07/pug-loaf.html Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it? that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me. they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising

but what about the breeds that weren't specifically developed to be working dogs? what then? as steve said bet me to it. 30-40-50 years ago, (my family was there), dogs were being bred and judged exactly the same way with the same breed standards, some haven't been changed for a hundred years. no one has mentioned the fact, sharing some of this is also the judges who have the power to shape or break a breed simply by their choices in the ring too. not to say there aren't some pretty good judges out there and there are! but some i've seen over many years would award some competitors even if they brought in a 3 legged cat into the dog showing ring. some comments outside have been: how many judges are in the ring showing atm, 3, well we know who is going to get it and sure enough. sad fact. the reason for this, as was explained to me by an inspiring judge for another group to become all breed status, some don't know their standards well enough and take the easy way out by looking at the other end rather than the dog. this all can have potential to shape what the competitors bring into the ring and it has an effect in what is bred and what is not.

Short coated dogs are very easy to bath and groom. Yes as a dog lover it is your responsibility to care for the dog if the owner (who is a family member or housemate) is neglecting it. My parents have an older Maltese cross that they got when I was younger (it was mainly my dog when I lived at home) however when I moved out they refused to let me take her. My siblings don't really like her - she has bad flea allergies and tends to bite her back till it is raw (ewww). However she is a lovely dog. I used to nag my parents to get her groomed as they didn't and she was dirty/matted etc. I ended up organizing for my dog to get groomed and would book my parents dog in as well. When I moved further away (i.e. wasn't close enough to take the dog to the groomer myself) I noticed that they weren't taking her to get groomed again, I also started grooming my dog myself with clippers I bought. So I have offered to my parents that all they need to do is bring the dog over and I will bathe and groom her myself. This seems to work well for us now - my parents are happy, the dog is clean and happy and I am happy as I don't have to nag as much. I've also made them put the dogs on diets, feed supplements take them to the vet etc. They aren't "bad" owners all the time but they do drop the ball with grooming. Certainly she isn't my dog but as a dog associated with my family it is my responsibility to ensure she is looked after if my parents/relations aren't doing so properly and I don't even live with my parents. Sometimes as adults we have to take more responsibility than is "fair" so that innocents aren't hurt. I'm only 24 by the way. you sound like a very responsible person good to hear.

at the end of the day they restrict this they restrict that, ban this ban that and still we will have the exact same problems because its not straight inbreeding that is causing all of the genetic problems in pedigree dogs, there's other factors too. like you said selection. so we do all this bow to the pressure from animal groups, RSPCA because they saw a program in the UK, and then they find out 10 20 years later that we still have the same problems so what are they going to decide to do then? oh i know, ban the pedigree dog because they are all unhealthy. and hugh wirth from RSPCA i was wandering around in Big W the other day, and i came across his bio so i picked up the book and read the first few pages intro'ing him and did you know that his father bred i think pedigree dalmations and they also showed their dogs, then he bred i think pedigree cockers. so if he was involved in the dog world he should know better as well as a vet what gives dogs genetic problems instead of spouting off that all pedigree dogs are inbred thats why they ALL have problems. gahhhh... i wish i could get into a time machine and go back to my aunties era she bred pekes from 1960 to 1980 a time when the pedigree dog was more valued no DD's around. ETA: if you ask people at work for instance not really right into dogs but may have a pet dog or whatever, what they think about pedigrees its usually, pedigree dogs all have health problems a cross breed is more healthier. i try and explain it depends on the dogs genes whether it is cross or pedigree doesnt' really matter. but most of the time they just have an answer, you guys are scared of the competition. stop trying to push pedigrees. its a losing battle, all this just makes me incredibly sad, sad for the wide spread ignorance and sad for the pedigree dog.

I know yes, i sometimes wish i could hunt out all the people looking especially the PP in our area. its just so stupid the signs they put up, our pups dont' come from puppy farms. it makes me so very angry. poor poor dogs.

having written an article on this as our breed get PL quite alot it is very common, i'd have to say firstly that all vets have differing opinions on this. what did your vet grade his patellas as? even grading is quite different from vet to vet. as others have said it is better to go to a specialist as they have a bit more knowledge up their sleeve to tell you if it is severe enough to be operated on. a vet depending on their experience can vary in knowledge and opinions greatly. you did say in one post that one vet had to look up the info and then advise you? a lady vet this doesn't sound good. a specialists deals with these cases. some vets and im not saying all, but some see an opportunity to make a bit of $ on the side so will recommend surgery with even grade 1 when it is mild and the dog doesn't even appear to be showing any symptoms no limping no nothing, but the patella can be manipulated out of the joint. up to grade 3 generally PL doesn't require surgery. generally what happens is it will pop out for a few seconds then pop right back in up to grade 3. grade 3 and 4 it will stay out and take longer to pop back in or even stay out permanently. if your dog is overweight this wouldn't be helping his Patellas or his HD. it would be making it worse. so get his weight down first then perhaps try gentle exercise and i always recommend supplements like jointguard, or sasha blend or straight glucosomine and also calcium supplement. it does help to strengthen the leg musceles as well with walking.

yep its the tone in your voice. but yeah done that and the dog still came, even trained him to come on a whistle comes to that as well. i think the last person who had him trained him on a whistle. he also was trained to shake hands, family have said to me how did you do that so quickly, i said, i wasn't the one who trained him to do that, he came pre-trained to shake hands im afraid

Only if everyone keep on inbreeding on the same dogs. If popular sire was controlled and breeders avoided inbreeding and there was a constant flow of new blood, then there is no reason to assume that you would end up where we are now. At least that is how I understand it. But if everyone goes back to constant inbreeding, allowing popular sires to inflitrate the whole stud book in no time and as you say select for the wrong reasons, then yes nothing will be achieved. Read the rules again, it says 'only if they are used' which I saw that as sort of a warning. Agree with you about selection for extremes, but that is a seperate issue which I understand is going to be delt with in other ways. Even inbreeding I think will be delt with differently as we are already seeing with KC inbreeding restrictions and maybe goverenment laws. I think we will see a lot of new rules if not laws, and if these rules/laws are going to be put into place, then they have to have systems set up first which will allow breeders the ability to function within the new rules/laws. Right? So, as I said before, I see opening the stud book as not being done as a fix for any certain issues in any breed. (though certainly if the breeders wanted to it could be used for that). I think it was done to put into place the tools needed to allow those who want (or will want) to use them to breed dogs differently. sometimes using a popular sire can be a good thing, for instance we've always had this in our breed, when i first started (1985) there was a dog that was used quite a bit and he was a sound example and threw beautiful sound puppies, he was born in about 1978, he was still siring at age 17. Now there is a new dog these days who is a good example and has thrown some lovely sound puppies and he is a popular sire. not to say that his bloodlines are the only around, there are still plenty of other bloodlines around for diversity. to open the stud books to breed dogs differently i see it as a way to mess things up major in re: to recessive traits is my humble opinion on the whole thing. we can still do all those things you mention within a breed itself. in our breed we certainly can without bringing in new unknown dogs into the gene pool that may or may not have any record of their history attached introducing god knows what to the gene pool .

but really you have to ask who is mr and mrs average these days? days gone by (maybe 30-40 years ago) there was plenty of mr and mrs average. these days breeding dogs, any dog that has 4 legs and looks like anything it doesn't even have to look like a breed is big big money. so mr and mrs average cash in now even if its a woops situation. there's still the odd person that just gives away pups to friends or family if it is a woops but they are very few and far between. i often scour the papers just keeping an eye on our breed for instance. i've contacted a few people and assisted in homing a dog because mostly the dogs aren't desexed and i worry that the dog will end up in the wrong hands or at a puppy farm. there was one reg breeder who was advertising for sale on gumtree of all places for 2 dogs with full papers for breeding dogs. in the end i directed her onto DOL and told her to watch who buys her dogs could be puppy farmers who also scour such sites. another person wanted a puppy with papers and was advertising to buy one on gumtree. so ofcourse got directed to DOL. but really i consider mr and mrs average also BYB, there's either puppy farms large scale and there's BYB's. then there's the reg breeder. mr and mrs average aren't going to health test and concentrate on breed type and genetic problems in their dogs all the things that you need to do to make sure pups are healthy. still wrong.

I do not see any harm in letting them try either, Opening studbooks makes me go as well! I do see though that if that was shared through the general public even more people than do it already will say " Oh but they are Labs they just get fat, there is nothing we can do" I do not breed Labs or have owned one, however I have seen MANY during my years in vet hospitals and there has been a mix of overweight and perfect weight ones, and some overweight ones that became perfect weight dogs. The main things they had in common were people who thought they were hungry therefore needed to be fed, thought they were only happy when eating, couldn't resist puppy dog eyes or couldn't bring themselves to cut their food back as the dog wouldn't like them any more. If you got owners who were commited and knew their Labs would literally eat anything all of the time, they lost weight and maintained it. It guess it is also a side effect of taking a working dog and sticking it in a back yard without enough exercise and work and then feeding them like they were working all day. People get very suprised at times when you refer to their Lab as a working dog - shame isn't it. I guess after so long dealing with overweight dogs (of all breeds) and their owners I get my back up rather quickly as many would argue until they were blue in the face that it is not their fault and they feed the dog hardly anything. Then you find out they have dry food down all day, get a piece of toast at breakfast, biscuits, whatever. Or even that they just feed way more dog food than a dog of that breed size requires. Sometimes I just wanted to slap sense into them its not only labs that have this big problem, but other breeds too, we sold a little chi girl to an elderly lady and as some of our people do, bring them back if they go on hols. this girl came back 3 times the size so my mother told the lady she has to go on a strict diet (dog i mean not the lady ) but we found out the lady was giving her biscuits, not dog biscuits but our biscuits of a morning and heaps of snacks inbetween because she couldn't resist the big pleading eyes wanting more food. but the dog was sent home with a diet sheet and also instructions on how not to feed the dog

as i see it at the end of the day we still have a choice. I mean UK have agreed to open the books and all, but i see it if it does come here and by what others are saying its only a matter of time anyway , then i as a breeder have a choice whether i want to have those dogs in my pedigrees or not and which dogs i select etc.. as others have said its all up to selection anyway how we've always done things as breeders. they are going to identify F1, F2 and F3 generations anyway so after that it will be many years later and still it will be all up to selection still.

yes have to agree with this, the dog won't know its name until you teach the dog its name. all our young puppies, i train them with a treat, i call them and give them a treat, then i might call them and alternate and just give them a pat and praise them because you don't want them only coming when they know you only have a treat. my rescue dog his former name was Patrick (just decided rescue was going to call him that) i didn't really like this name for a dog, so i called him Jake, but when i went to pick him up the girl said don't let him off lead because he won't come to his name, she called him patrick one day in the park let him off and it took 2 hours to find him again as he disappeared. Jake didn't know what his name was because no one had ever taught him recall. So i trained him on the above methods and then i could let him off after about a week in the park because i knew he'd come back straight away with his name being called. i just thought what the rescue girl told me was very silly, she didn't train the dog to come to patrick so how do you expect the dog to know what his name is???????

aren't labs and goldens the breeds that are prone to eating to the cows come home they never stop? i remember reading this somewhere. So its up to the owner to make sure they only eat what they need. my brother has GR's and they would keep on eating if he let them.

i've been into a few petshops recently pretending i know nothing. One shop i asked where do the pups come from, a smaller shop with about 3 pups in there, cav cross something i think maltese. no fancy name just the name of the cross. no price. the girl said that they come from "family breeders"....i said not from puppy farms? oh no was the answer, puppy farm dogs are flea ridden and unhealthy. another shop i got the same answer and apparently they have a supply of BYB. what they don't realise is, BYB who is a puppy farmer but in a smaller scale is the exact same as a large scale puppy farm. same principles, dogs being bred for profit at every season of their poor little lives, no health tests being crossed with goodness knows what. i know of someone that went to a petstore to buy a puppy a year ago, the dog was meant to be a cavoodle, cav cross poodle, but looking at the dogs head it also has beagle and other breeds in it. the price over 1000 bucks. my own grandmother, this was 20 years ago grant you, but nothing has changed: got a gift from the family (my stupid cousin's ex-wife who is now a puppy farmer herself one of the notorious ones in the state!! ) the dog was meant to be a chihuahua and meant to turn out like my little dogs, well it didn't, it couldn't hardly walk, i estimated the poor puppy was about 5 weeks old sold at that age to create the illusion it was a small chihuahua. turned out it kept growing and was a fox terrier cross kelpie. my grandmother still loved this dog, cindy she was called, who lived until she was 17. We use to help look after her as grandma believed dogs should be left outside no matter the weather comes from her farming days i think. when will people start realising that to buy a puppy in a shop they are helping to keep the parents of those poor pups inprisoned for life then killed when they can no longer produce to be replaced with another poor dog to do it all over again. It amazes me with all the press on petshops that people still don't know about what is behind the petshop puppy. I wish we could boycott all these places and make them help to reduce numbers in shelters by only advertising shelter dogs.

my bosses daughter has a "cav cross poodle' its meant to be she showed me a picture but its got the head of a beagle no doubt about it, also has cav markings but poodle coat a little bit wavy not full on though. he is also 15 kgs..alot bigger than a cav. how much does a beagle usually weigh steve? im sure that he is the size of a beagle. although just viewed pictures. i didn't ask how much they paid not game enough, i assume probably about a thousand. boss tried to tell me ages ago that she went to a reg breeder of cavs and i was very exited to find that out only to be totally disappointed that it was a cross bought at a petshop. And this lady is a school teacher you'd think she'd know a bit more about what to do and how to go about buying a puppy. but no. sorry a bit offtopic.

The fact that we have reciprocal deals with the UK kennel club means that sooner or later the dogs allowed in with an open stud book will appear on at least some of ours but reality is that I dont think the ANKC will hold out and tell animal rights and people who are pushing for open stud books to bugger off .Its only a matter of time that they open up - The fact that they have already banned close matings is taking us closer and fuels the base line media crap that we are where we are because of in breeding. I would like to see them fight back and promote the fact that the stud books have always been able to be opened and still can be without needing to change anything. The whole idea that one of those beagle cross cavs which look every bit a purebred beagle is allowed in and we then start to see SM and MVD in a breed that doesnt have it? Not on my shift. sorry i know i've asked this before and i've viewed the other thread addressing this, can anyone give me a link to the new ruling on inbreeding possibly? i've tried to google looked at some controlling bodies, can't seem to find anything.

as was stated by the national breed club as there were several people trying to put through schemes on PL over many years, its up to the individual breeders themselves to keep records to breed it out of the lines etc. yes there are other things to breed for besides PL, however, besides this common health problem they are generally a reasonable healthy and sturdy little breed. LIke any other breed there can be bite probs, heart probs etc. etc. but not as common as is PL. im of the opinion that a dog can display good breed type and be everything the standard calls for but if it isn't sound its not really worthy of placing into the gene pool. there are quite a few chi breeders who feel as i do and screen strictly for PL, im not the only one so i don't doubt for a minute that there are perhaps unreg bred on the same principles. there was once this lady that turned up at a show had reg dogs for years no one knew her but goes in the ring with a beautiful example of the breed sound as a bell wins hands down. So she was away from everyone and still applying all that i and others do with her dogs.

You're making an assumption that a dog outside the stud book has unknown parentage. That is not always the case, particularly for working dogs. What's the mode of inheritance for PL.. unknown? I'd have thought breeding from a dog without it would be the start point now?? my experience with it has been strongly recessive and i think that at the same time if thats possible polygenetic as well. many years ago we talked about PL and many ascertained this might be the case. which makes it damn hard to control. a dog without PL could be a carrier and produce it or it may skip and then produce. being able to pinpoint it with known heritage is my line of defence. seeing as it can be strongly recessive i'd take my chances with dogs that i can research rather than with dogs i can't, going on what was posted up on UK model. not registered condidered unknown heritage so asterisks gets placed in pedigree until no longer there with each generation. recessive can only occur if the two parents have the gene to express it. if one only has the gene then the dominant gene takes over. this is what has been happening with my dogs over many years. its not always possible to view each and every dog in the pedigrees particularly when you outcross so accidentally you could be producing a dog with a double whammy and have no idea where its come from especially when some breeders are not always forthcoming with info to research or its not possible to research bloodline, it makes it all the more harder bringing in dogs that are questionable in heritage, knowing the parents isn't good enough for this problem you need to know at least 4-5-6 generations back to be confident. not sure if that answers your question or not

I don't either under those conditions. However the notion that a dog without a pedigree is going to be genetically different to those in the stud book might bear closer inspection. Two limited register dogs would produce that now.. from within the existing gene pool. sorry i am going to go out on a limb here and say i do have a problem with it in my own breed. I have enough trouble trying to keep out PL in my bloodlines and to introduce more dogs that i don't know their lines beyond 3 generation when i have proven that they can pick up this genetic problem from at least 5 - 6 gens back.

i don't know where they were Steve, I have been wondering that myself. No one said a thing then. Judging by what i read years ago about the tail docking issue, they didn't have a voice then with the govt, that is what was said. after members asked for this to happen more it was done. im only repeating what was told to me by the CEO herself and staff going to the meeting and also having further correspondence. why would DOgs vic be commenting on what is going on in the cat world? can you be sure that is what is going on? Yes UK Kennel club has been done like a dogs dinner over all of this andit does seem they are bowing down to pressure. I don't deny that but as i said earlier whats going on in UK doesn't mean its going on here for sure. but yes i saw that there are various registries including x-breed group, on that committee. it could very well happen but powers that be have assured me and others that they are going to do their best to protect its members they already did do that i believe protecting the "hobby" breeder with councils. i.e. 10 fertile bitches kept by VCA member. exempt. i was told i can forward email that was sent to me. privately. i have to watch what i say sorry. same debate we had probably about 6-8 months ago on this very thing.

Actaully it was the breed clubs that prevented it. And I am sure that is why the open stud book has nothing to do with consulting with the breed clubs, it is across the board to prevent this from every happening again. I also think the government has a very big gun to the KC's head and it really is now a case of our way or the highway. I mma so very sure (my crystal ball has been dusted off and is working very well) they are gearing up to have some sort of control on inbreeding levels which will use the Mate Select system. no i don't think so. i really don't think that will happen. as i also said earlier that was ignored that i went to a meeting with my controling body (dogsvictoria/VCA) and the president addressed about 100 members (room was jam packed) to tell us that the government looks to VCA for direction as VCA is one of 5 key organisations to advise the govt. i believe right beside RSPCA and others. the govt also asked VCA about another very well known issue and i contacted VCA and asked if i am allowed to print it here on DOL but I am not allowed as they want to address public/media their own way on all of this, but its just an example that the govt are in no way putting their foot down and saying this is how it is going to be done and we are now going to do it - tough, they firstly gather their key organisations as they have done recently, and then hold a meeting and discuss some more before they decide to do that. i believe you are describing a society of communism, perhaps? ETA: ANKC give directive to breed clubs such as ours, my friend is the secretary, so she gets correspondence from Controlling body who inturn might get correspondence from ANKC so it all filters down like that. although just recently they placed a rulling about breed ages but some clubs got the correspondence and asked its members of the breed clubs some quoted they did not. Some breed clubs claimed they missed out entirely on that consult. looking at our breed the age is about right. but other breeds are saying ages are wrong.

but dont you guys think using the dalmation as an example that its going to take alot of years before that happens (opening of stud books here and other countries). it took them 40 years in the dalmation to have them accepted and still its only UK that has accepted them. other countries have not as yet. other countries still deem them cross breeds. (just going on what i read)

the RSPCA seemed to have started stating arguments against pedigree dogs when we saw from England - PDE. So ANKC has issued a statement to address RSPCA concerns as RSPCA wrote to ANKC complaining about inbreeding of pedigrees and how unhealthy they were. So they've taken info that was grossly exagerated from a tv show (and as i said before which seemed to have been ignored by the main person going on about problems in pedigree dogs on here) all dogs CAN and has potential no matter if crossed bred, pedigree outcrossed, inbred, line bred, CAN suffer from genetic problems. In that program which i assume 7pm project is going off as is others in the media, they have concentrated on grossly exagerated examples of some breeds and portrayed it to mean that all pedigrees no matter what breed has problems. i was very angry viewing PDE, then 7pm project then RSPCA website where they are all going on about the same thing working off each other and letting it get bigger and bigger and gaining momentum in the public eye. I am angry because with my over 25 years in this world and having alot of experiences with pedigree dogs and also cross bred dogs, rescue dogs and shelters and you name it to do with dogs, i know all this rubbish that is being printed is complete and utter ignorant garbage. it is not how it is........ i think ANKC have answered the public and the RPSCA very well and very diplomatically as i believe its just all scare mongering. UK is not Australia. There are different situations over there in re: to the registries. and the attitude of the public. they still say that most people choose to own a pedigree rather than a cross bred DD. whereas here most of the public has run with the DD craze. so there are big differences between each country yet we are being compared to England and their problems. Standards are up to individual intepretation always have been like that. Its always been up to individual breeders and it always been apparent to me that there are always going to be breeders with ethics, people with ethics and people with no ethics, people who consider winning the be all and end all no matter if it is detriment to the dog they are showing and there's others who are not this way. opening stud books? as i said before too that has seemed to be ignored some breeds are 100's of years old and if researched you can find dogs that aren't even remotely related to each other for more than 10 generations back. I have done such a research as a kid this is all i did while other kids went to parties. so rather than opening stud books would it not work, if we select dogs in a pedigree that aren't even remotely related in some breeds you can do this and it works very well, and then breed for a healthier type. no need to open stud books and allow for unknown variables to enter into the gene pool. I agree with Steve it is all about selection of certain traits that has either helped or not helped others. someone said on here that there is hate, how can we hate a person that we don't know? why is it that if we defend ourselves with a reasonable argument of why theories don't work and haven't worked in the past etc etc. and have a debate, we get perceived as "those" people belonging to some sort of elite group/ btw don burke has said this in his interview???????????? i refer you again to the ANKC website where it explains it all in full i believe. 6. Breed Standards Breed standards are being held up as the be all and end all of the problems in the dog world. Limited research has noted that one or more conditions may be related to breed standards in those standards that have been examined. The vast majority of breed standards were written over 100 years ago and have changed very little since. Problems arise over time where breeders and judges may have selected what appeared more attractive at that time. Equally over time, this can develop in to the more exaggerated aspects seen in certain breeds. The breed standards themselves are reasonably open documents and were written to give guidelines for breeds that were predominantly used for hunting and working purposes. The standards were intended to produce sound animals of similar type to breed on with. Over time (100 years plus), and as fashions change, certain aspects do become altered (particularly when seen from such a distance), but rarely does the standard point the way. The “Fit for function, fit for life” approach by the Kennel Club (UK) appears to be the best way to approach the selection and breeding of sound dogs into the future. It should be remembered that these problems of exaggerations of the breed standards have developed over generations of both dogs and breeders. The problems cannot be fixed in one generation but need a steady, consistent approach that should be looked at as a long term goal. Attempting to “fix” everything at once will in the vast majority of breeds result in severe number reduction which in turn would cause increased inbreeding with the remaining breeding stock. The health and welfare notation that has been added to each standard is a clear statement towards the fit for function, fit for life approach. Furthermore judges have been clearly instructed to non-award or excuse from the ring any animal that is distressed, lame or obviously unsound in any way (poor health, temperament, eye discharges etc). This is the culture we need to promote such that breeders will over time not exhibit animals with problems and further, not breed with them. The “Any departure from the foregoing….” at the end of each standard is there primarily to avoid exaggerations. The statement certainly does not imply that health and welfare issues are to only be considered when departures occur. The Australian based breed standards affect some 7 breeds – the Kelpie, Cattle Dog, Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog, Border Collie, Australian Terrier, Australian Silky Terrier and more recently the Tenterfield Terrier. None of these breeds are exaggerated structurally to any degree, as the majority come from a solid agriculture working base as reflects our history and culture. These standards are maintained and monitored by the breed societies involved and must agree to any changes. The ANKC Ltd has very little say in the alteration of breed standards based overseas. Breed extensions is an area with continual review – this is undertaken every 5 -10 years across all breeds and is an area that could become very proactive in promoting fitness and health in breeds. These are used to educate judges and to a lesser degree breeders. A higher emphasis on health and welfare aspects as well as the fit for function can be readily brought in along with the need to avoid exaggerations. These are all long term goals that will need time, education and a whole shift in the dog breeding fraternity philosophy towards dog breeding and exhibition. This, like any major shift, is often subtle but eventually quite profound. “Fit for function, fit for life” should be the eventual common goal for us all. blah..........

as long as we are quoting from other sources i'll do it the old fashion way. I'll type this up for anyone that wants an interesting read. (im a speed typist) one of my favourite authors was hilary harmer, of the prefix "Aztec" i have a book that i bought in 1985. It says she was on the committee for saving the Xoloitzcuintli in Mexico and in 1956 imported the first ones into england since 1911. her first dog was a greyhound but she's bred chihuahuas, jap chins, maltese, pomeranians shih tzus, and american cockers at the time she wrote the book which was first published in 1968. She had also world champions and was a judge. I have a very old photo of one of her dogs taken in the early 70's a dog that was residing in new zealand but bred by hilary harmer. i have also researched pedigrees in chihuahuas for example and Aztec has come up in some pedigrees, going back to 1960 and beyond. For me her books have always been a bible that i refer back to when im lost on something. Not that i agree with absolutely everything that is written in these books but for me she was the voice of reason when i first started out as a child at 13-14 breeding dogs.. its just very interesting what hilary harmer writes on the subject of inbreeding all these years ago. i notice there are a few paragraphs on inbreeding/outcrossing and line breeding: the best matings Provided that the stock is good, and that no two dogs are mated together which have the same fault, and that the important recessive genes are known, then I have found that the best matings have been the most successful: grandmother to grandson, grandfather to grand-daughter, uncle to neice and aunt to nephew, son or daughter to dams half sister to half brother when the common parent is outstanding. brother and sister matings can be good, particularly if one parent is outstanding, but they cannot add any new characteristic, and the offspring cannot be better genetically than either parent. Inbreeding father to daughter or mother to son will show up all the existing fautls, and should only be done when the good qualities out-weigh the bad faults, and when the recessive genes of the ancestors are definately known. These matings are not advisable for the novice because a mistake can be costly to the breed. Inbreeding Inbreeding is the mating of close relatives, that is ,father to daughter mother to son etc. this shoud NEVER be contemplated unless the stock is absolutely sound both physically and temperamentally, and if this type of breeding is resorted to, the culling of all the stock not up to standard is absolutely imperative. if the inferior pups are kept, then they should be given away without papers and they should certainly never be bred from. Some of the best stock in the world in horses, cattle, pigs,dogs etc. have been produced by inbreeding. but inbreeding resorted to without knowledge can be the ruination of a strain in the few generations. Probably in one generation, and certainly in two, inbreeding will show up the fautls which are in the genetic background. It must be emphasised that the elimination of any sub-standard pups is essential if inbreeding is resorted to. it is not advisable that novices, without real knowledge of all the dogs in the pedigree for at least 4 generations back, should try inbreeding. It may take several generations of inbreeding before the worst effects will be seen. Inbreeding experiments can however, show remarkable results in animals and in plants. Dr Leon F Whitney developed a very beautiful and fine strain of tropical fish. Iebistes reticulantus. which are generally called guppies. Dr Whitney bred brothers to sisters for 10 generations consecutively. the result was that each generation became a little smaller and less vigorous than the previous one until the 5th generation there was a sudden improvement and each generation thereafter improved in vigour and also in colour. When two inbred lines, which have been produced from consecutive brother to sister matings, are crossed with each other, the resultant progeny are always larger than the original stock, and they processed increased vigour. Dr helen L King is widely known for her experimentally bred rats, in which she carried out brother to sister matings for 100 generations. The result was finer and larger than the original pair. If two completely unrelated inbred lines are mated together, the resulting stock is likely to be larger and better than the P1 generation. I have done this with two inbred strains of one of my breeds, and the result has been most encouraging as well as interesting. Inbreeding in all animals tends to produce rather highly strung animals and they are often bad doers. A good exmaple of this is demonstrated by highly strung thoroughbred race horses as compared with good hunters. But the classical example which is quoted of the results of good inbreeding is that of the Egyptians dynasty, which produced such brilliant leaders.

anyone see this also? 5.With regards to Inbreeding we are collaborating with the Sydney University Faculty of Veterinary Science investigating the status in Australia. We do not anticipate major problems in the numerically larger breeds, smaller breeds may have higher figures, however Australian breeders have a long history of importing new bloodlines, especially due to our geographical isolation.