toy dog

i agree with this post. if a breeder isn't registered so they can contribute to the gene pool, then what are they breeding for? i've heard many say "for good pets" but more often than not, its a front for the real reason. $$$$$ in another breed we had besides the one in my avatar, many years ago, there was this lady that considered herself an expert, got dogs from the registered breeders that had good dogs, bred them had heaps to the point where i'd question that she was just a little hobby breeder, bought a pup off her to start up with, meant to be a show and breeding puppy, gave it back telling her that it had an overshot jaw wasn't going to start with that sorry. She said "what is an overshot jaw?" i knew then that she hadn't ever examined a breed standard and she was trying to breed show quality dogs? i think really $$$$$$$$$ was more important to her than breeding nice little pets for the community. she is still breeding but unregistered now, and has alot of dogs, heaps......why????????? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

i never took notice of this bit you wrote. i think it would have been the ranger Gary at the time to be the one who told you? the same person who doubledup as a traffic officer in wellington so no he would not have known the difference. so why didn't you plead your case to them to let them know of the difference when you had contact with them now a kevin burge is the ranger and service officer/traffic officer, the same person who went to the RSPCA forum on puppy farms and stated the farms in gippsland are bad and we monitor them, the same speal he gave me a few days ago on email. it was then brought to the attention that wellington have not been doing audit reports on these farms for 5 years as all the pages were BLANK. i have not had a chance to have a dialogue with this new service/traffic officer replacing gary so i don't know what his views are. but i do know one thing, whoever told you that in wellington shire are making themselves out to be very ignorant and even a little bit uneducated if they think just because the farms operate in this area and people dont want them complain, that that is directly related to a person that is registered with dogsvictoria. they have dogsvictoria on the registrations so they are aware of our organisation. They have now after the lenths i went to i will PM you and tell you what i have to say,as i dont want it on a pulic forum hi mortonplace, i look forward to your PM. regards toy dog

thats just not right, poor doggy. im always interested in talking to my new dog owners, 13 years on.....we had one lady come back to us. she is the one that doesn't want to be in contact with us which upsets me but what can you do, but i know the dog is well looked after and she paid enough for it, you can't push the owners to contact you if they don't want to but it sure is nice when they give you updates regularly and continue to do so. we are a bit the other way.

my very first dog came from a BYB and he was a mix. i was only 13 at the time. now i have a rescue mixed breed with breeds we don't know he's a true bitsa (we think kelpie cross pointer cross.... ) lol and i wouldn't change that for all the pedigrees in the world. they always says that pedigree breeders are the best snobs, and they don't like crosses, but im here to say that we LOVE ALL DOGS no matter their origin or breed and that includes cross breeds too.

im sorry i had to answer this one, dogs are separate from chooks, pigs, cows and other farmed animals for food for humans! do you have pigs, cows and chooks in your bed on the sofa or in the car???????? some people do have pigs as pets but again, 1 in 3 house holds own a dog so there is no comparison what-so-ever. still don't know what you are getting at. Just another stirrer, I think. My point was that this is a DOG forum, not a chook or pig forum, we are interested in CANINE welfare. Because one or another type of animal is raised in poor conditions does not make it right for all animals. i was beginning to think that. and me being gullible enough answered. they stir me up at work alot and then when i always answer they all laugh. :p oh well......it brought the people in here to read my thread, im happy about that.

joel, i have been liaising with councillors and animal groups now for about close to 16 years and most of what you brought up, i have already come across talking to councillors and getting their views and attitudes so i was aware of all what you said already. but thank you for your input.

thanks for that great article, i have bookmarked this to keep for future use.

i never took notice of this bit you wrote. i think it would have been the ranger Gary at the time to be the one who told you? the same person who doubledup as a traffic officer in wellington :rolleyes: so no he would not have known the difference. so why didn't you plead your case to them to let them know of the difference when you had contact with them now a kevin burge is the ranger and service officer/traffic officer, the same person who went to the RSPCA forum on puppy farms and stated the farms in gippsland are bad and we monitor them, the same speal he gave me a few days ago on email. it was then brought to the attention that wellington have not been doing audit reports on these farms for 5 years as all the pages were BLANK. i have not had a chance to have a dialogue with this new service/traffic officer replacing gary so i don't know what his views are. but i do know one thing, whoever told you that in wellington shire are making themselves out to be very ignorant and even a little bit uneducated if they think just because the farms operate in this area and people dont want them complain, that that is directly related to a person that is registered with dogsvictoria. they have dogsvictoria on the registrations so they are aware of our organisation.

i will be there, having surgery but will still try and make it.

well yes you are telling me that there will always be people that don't bother to research before they buy, you know what you call this? ignorance. plain and simple. about 20 years ago a big market started in mainly DDs you know why, because there was an idiot gardener on a show that called himself an expert that was actually promoting these farms, so people got on the money bandwagon and the DD was born then these large farms became the norm today. purebreeds were selectively bred to produce dogs for function and some might have been crossed several hundred years ago, my own breed the smooth coat chihuahua is thousands of years old and were bred by the toltecs, they are one of the breeds that has remained true to their form (which is small in size with the same features) in all of this time, so dogs were not bred for profit alone you know one hundred years ago or more, if they did we would have been in grave strife i reckon being only guided by the almighty dollar not for function or service of the police or there is a million and one reasons why dogs were bred a certain way to adopt features, function or temperament, you cannot compare this selective breeding to breeding of SWF today which are just bred for pure profit alone no health testing done, no uniform in looks, no nothing there is no comparison what-so-ever to a pedigree dog. its like comparing a ferrari to a hyundai.

Mortonplace, we are in wellington shire under a permit. we are locals. we have targetted one particular main farm yes. there is another one i know off that is operated by a person that is known to me - family connections but not related - thank god. all the others i do not know personally. i asked the question of how many farms are under wellington shire's duristiction and i never got an answer from these councillors all i got in several emails was "we are montoring these farms" when it was proven otherwise several times. i got an answer from the animal groups who have attended forums where the ranger was guest speaker. i mention genetics to these councillors that have the power to reject or no renew permits of farms, because it is the link of why so many "dogs" are put in shelters, as we know these SWF are not tested like a pedigree has potential to be (depending on the breeder), genetics are not tracked in bloodlines because they are mongrels and temperament is not concentrated on which is an important aspect if the dog isn't a good family member then they are dumped. this is my angle with genetics. people with no experience with breeding dogs, what is dominant genes what is recessive etc etc. have no idea how important this is of why so many dogs are dumped in our shelters.. so i take my time to explain these aspects. i also concentrate on socialisation aspects in farms which is nil, training which is nil and also grooming tips which is nil when they are dogs that have several different textures of coat in them which i am told by groomers is very hard to groom so imagine an inexperienced dog owner coping with that thick wooly coat which unfortunately also equals high dumpage rate. the raids started way before the letters started going, as they had an ongoing dialogue with one main puppy farm (largest in australia) where there was a courtcase because the property was entered and there was a bit of a stand off, nothing to do with letters from the public. as the public are becoming aware of these farms and knowing not to buy petshop pups that come from these farms that are all in gippsland mainly the only way we can close them down is public pressure, how else do you propose we can close them down Mortonplace? this is the only thing i can think of to help educate the public because as the latest councillor said i am in contact with, and she is again correct, it is in the hands of the consumer and what way can we get to consumers and the public and locals to help is through sites like DOL where there are 12,000 users who are dog lovers just like you and me. these farms breed SWFs that are dumped in our pounds and shelters its been proven that there are more of these dogs than any other in shelters that are overcrowded. so this is another aspect i do push home too. i had a great long long dialogue with the mayor about a year ago about the difference between cross breeds and registered breeds. I sort of knew of him not personally but it was the footing i needed to get him to to listen to me why we see SWF's in shelters alot more than we see pedigrees. he listened he took it onboard and he said he was going to re-think what these farmers had told him. the problem we face is these farms are feeding these councillors with propaganda, for instance, our dogs are not dumped, our dogs are healthy they have no genetic flaws, there is a market for these SWF so why not breed up thousands of pups. These are the issues i try and address with each councillor. i have also welcomed them to contact me anytime where i will clarify any issue in relation to breeding of good quality dogs. one councillor said that they had refused a puppy farm that was going to start up, so yes small steps are getting us there. the councillor also said that not many residents are complaining of these farms so this is why i am writing in here. there are many issues with these farms and its only one aspect that they are not following protocol and legislation set out in the code of practice for a registered animal business. so they now know the difference as no one has taken the time to explain to these people the difference. i am getting each councillor one by one to try to educate them on the differences and they at least know because i feed them with links as well. morten place we have had a permit with wellington shire for 25 years and they certainly do know the difference between a dogsvictoria membership and a cross breed farmer/backyard breeder as the councillor just recently agreed with me that backyarders are the main cause of overpopulation in shelters which she is correct but she failed to recognise the connection with also these farmers who are pumping out pups left right and centre. mortenplace you shouldn't feel guilty and place yourself in the same basket as these farmers as we have nothing to do with them and because of the shire approving farms left, right and centre i dont' think they are going to be very strict with permits. they certainly weren't strict with us, no one has ever been near us as when it was approved and since then for 25 years. They trust what we tell them as true and it is ofcourse, we explain in great detail what we are about and they listen. farmers know to come to wellington shire as no one checks the permits with both farms and also people like you and me. they understand a showdog permit and need to replace any showdogs if they get old or if we have to sell them if we need to breed them. this is the way we've always done it.

i was polite and i didn't swear, i was summarizing because last night i was angry that she was putting forth the same points over and over again to me, I also thought that she is an ignoramus but i didn't tell her that either preferring to say her statements i am very sorry councillor are pointing towards ignorance. this is less confrontational than saying, look you twit you are ignorant. ;) the exact words i used is "this is not true" which is less agressive. sure you aren't on the side of farmers???, you sure are pointing every little thing out and trying to catch me out here. just summerising and trying to write things different in different threads as you are not allowed to double up on posts here, just following rules, i am getting quite upset with these councillors that keep on quoting crap and i'd love to say that to them but you don't get anywhere being nasty and being agressive. what you have highlighted, thanks for that btw, is very true. it is necessary to have farms otherwise how do we as humans eat, have milk we are made to eat meat. however i digress this is not the issue. thats for another forum i think legally they are in the right yes, as its not illegal to breed dogs for money and it never will be illegal. ethically, hmmm now you are opening a new can of worms here. dont' think i need them no. I can pretty much do without them. ok then, eh the word canine is not in that paragraph you sent through. its pretty straight forward what i explained i think you are turning this into a big debate when it doesn't need to be so.. you are turning what i said upside down inside out. what for?????? i think im done now gotta go and feed my little doggies joel.

no worries mate

True, but whether this is realistically achievable is another thing. The problem with being passionate for a cause (and voicing that passion) is that you will, inevitably, be judged (as I have found out recently on here ). If you are prepared for this, then it makes your argumentative power that much stronger. If you are not, then you will be trampled by the people with whom you are arguing. I want to add, as I think I may have not voiced this part strongly enough and got carried away with other things... I completely applaud you (toy dog) on what you're doing. No change happens without someone bringing the flaws into the spotlight and if everyone fought for animal welfare like you are, then the world would be a much better place. Do take what I have said into consideration though, as these arguments are what you're likely to face while battling with both the council and the people running these puppy farms. They will compare the treatment of their dogs to the treatment of all other animals which are farmed for their offspring. And generally speaking, although the average person doesn't necessary like it, they are content with the fact because they don't like the alternative (which is either dont eat meat, or pay a higher price for the end product to ensure better welfare for the animals before and during slaughter). I don't think you're going to get anywhere the way you're going (through bombarding council members with letters and abuse) while you're arguing that they should treat dogs differently. The likelihood is, they wont. I look at it like this: If I was running one of those puppy farms and coming up against criticism from you, then I would dig deep enough to find out whether you bought free range meat, eggs etc etc. If you didn't, then your argument becomes weightless, because you are supporting the same sort of farming with a different animal and suggesting that I (the puppy farmer) be descriminated against because of the animal which I am farming. You have to PROVE why puppy farming is worse than regular farming, and relying on that because dogs are seen as companion animals will not cut it IMO. i see what you are saying hence why my angle is genetics rather than focussing on how the dogs are treated, which is pretty bad in these hell holes. i have been told what these farmers are saying to council who don't know any better how genes work in animals. they are saying that their dogs are healthy even though they are crosses with random genes in them, they are saying that none of their dogs end up in shelters, how can they know that when they ship them off to petshops and they aren't meeting the new owners the shopkeepers are. they are saying their dogs are friendly, when i know through trial and error that timidness is very hard to breed out, it is a strong gene to eradicate. so they keep on putting up these arguments in reference to why their dogs are better and deserved to be farmed. so i mention the angle of random genes, poor socialisation and poor genes which inturn affects their demeaner, health and grooming needs which equals dumpage in shelters which is what RSPCA is going on about in the first place. how they are treated and the quality of life in these farms is but one aspect of a whole host of poor aspects. farmers have even said that if they were closed down ppl would go underground to get a puppy. so i explained where you would go to get a pet (reg breeder/shelter), closing down a farm would have no affect. after i spent my time explaining to one councillor he thanked me and told me that he never thought of these issues and he perhaps need to re-think what the farmers are telling him. i was polite he was polite and it was a good conversation. as is with the latest lady. she didn't have to answer me but she did and felt compelled to for some reason. i have taken into consideration what you have said because it mirrors what i've been told by the people in the shire yes. some points were exactly what they said. about 18 mths ago, i put this subject up on DOL, and many emailed the council then i heard through the grapevine that council were complaining of too many letters. lol they did the same to the shire in Geelong where there was a farm run by a MP eventually they had to bow to the people and they closed that farm but it took 10 years. this farm has been operating for 20 eventhough they have said 50 which is a load of crock. they'll say anything and they do to the press. open day at the farm back fired big time and im so happy the public are starting to not be hoodwinked by these money grabbing farmers out to exploit these poor little defenseless dogs stuck in a prisonfor their whole lives.

oh your poor person! i genuinely feel sorry for you. enjoy your puppy, as long as you learnt a lesson out of it, is the main thing. one of my first dogs was from an unethical breeder as we didn't know any better, this was 25 years ago, my first chihuahuas along with my mother. the breeder we got our first long coat chi from told us to breed out severe patella luxation, weak stomach lining with hernia and severe overshot, we wanted the puppy for showing and breeding. we were offered a return mating on this girl. we refused quoting it was unethical to breed such a dog. we got her desexed our little angel and she lived her life until 16 years of age as my fathers treasured pet. so basically we all live and learn.

BUMP

My point is, i dont think you are going to win this argument with council. Although I dont agree with puppy farms in the slightest, they DO reflect animal farming in general, under the law yes, they are lumped under animal farming and being a farming area, and councillors being in a farming community naturally they will see this as just an agricultural exercise and have stated so yes. and I dont see why they would impose rules over one and not the other in regards to the treatment of their animals. it depends on whether those animals are getting what they need, basic necessaties which the farm i am focusing on, the animals ARE NOT. as proven by visitors to the property taking photos and ALV calling them out which they either try to deny or try to hide to look good. we aren't dealing with all livestock on other farms we are talking about farmed dogs in gippsland, there is already campaigns by ALV to stop the unethical treatment of pigs, battery hens you name it. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOGS because we are a dog forum who are dog lovers. yes mate they already have, several times. hmmm i've already said many times why we are speaking about dogs, haven't i? who's arguing.... So, this means that any domesticated animal raised on a 'farm' to produce a commodity (which would be the puppies) for subsistence (i would assume not) OR profit (which is the case) is considered livestock. Which then means that these dogs can be considered livestock. well you can bold those words you've bolded there but its important what comes after it????? they are referring to farm animals raised, domesticcated animals might be cows, pigs or sheep, they aren't wild are they? they are farmed animals, canines aren't generally raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fibre (meaning sheep) or labour. dog farms have only popped up in the last 20 years the same time that DD became popular why is that? for MONEY. they are bred for nothing other than for money and then may become a burden on society when they over produce. cows, sheep and pigs, chooks aren't a burden on society. its just common sense this line of thinking????? and yes have debated those points exactly with the councillors for a few years now, prepared to argue the point far enough, how far do you want me to argue??? eh????? you still aren't making much sense. i don't abuse anyone, i am polite when i talk to councillors, i try and educate them about genetics thats my angle. Council might hate ALV as they have done the hard yards for these poor dogs by actually raiding a number of properties. this is why the farmers and council hate ALV so much because they are stopping them making their thousands of dollars. tell me something i dont' already know Eric pearce with the late news. the farmers are on better terms with the VETS, the COUNCILLORS and themselves because they are making $ as MONEY TALKS. they aint going to want to listen to anyone trying to close their little money making venture down now are they? joel or whatever your name is, this is a huge assumption!!! i am concerned about dogs because that is my field being a registered breeder of a number of breeds for over 25 years, so why not go on a crusade to try to do something about these farms that cause alot of people distress. why not contribute something towards this cause and try and educate as i go along and try and make people aware of what is going on behind our backs. who said anything different, i am not only a dog lover but a lover of all animals so yes, i have also lived on a farm so i have eaten pet chooks, pet ducks, rabbits you name it we didn't go to a supermarket very often we lived off the land. people that tend to not have a connection with what is in a supermarket and what is on a plate is through no fault of their own, people that have never lived on a farm and can't relate ofcourse living in a city all their lives. so what is your point? tell us something we didn't all know.

im sorry i had to answer this one, dogs are separate from chooks, pigs, cows and other farmed animals for food for humans! do you have pigs, cows and chooks in your bed on the sofa or in the car???????? some people do have pigs as pets but again, 1 in 3 house holds own a dog so there is no comparison what-so-ever. still don't know what you are getting at.

and hello you better put on your flame suit, you are right, this statement people who own pedigree dogs in this forum are dog lovers and this is an issue about dogs so it certainly does have a place here because i am trying to get support from fellow dog lovers, what better place to go than right here on DOL. did they mention canines in this bit i don't see the word canine? they are referring to animals that are raised to supply humans with food that is what they are referring to. so i think you lost that argument. this is exactly what the councillor said, pigs are more intelligent than dogs but are being farmed too. PIGS supply meat for humans, chooks and cows and whatever, they are all animals being raised on farms to supply the human population, do dogs supply us with meat or food, no. dogs are here to serve man to be a companion. do you see cows and pigs and chooks living in 1 in 3 households around australia? no. do you see cows, pigs chooks, ferrets having a population exposion so much so, that we have to have shelters to send them too that are overcrowded? no. i don't understand what you are getting at like the councillor. sure some farmers treat their animals like crap, some treat them good to the end when they get them slaughtered which is necessary for mankind to survive. some farmers i have seen (being brought up on a farm) are the cruelest human beings alive like some of my family. some people (farmers ) end up treating all animals like farm animals and don't end up having a heart. they end up thinking that animal don't feel anything. but not all farmers are like this though. just some i have known for my whole life. some stories i could tell you would make your hair curl. what they've done to dogs mainly!!!

hi ya pleased to meet you. i will PM you.

Puppy Farm Awareness Day Rally Sunday September 19th - 12pm Parliament House, Melbourne. Guest Speakers include Derryn Hinch Moira Rayner Now is your chance to be a voice for the dogs imprisoned in Victoria's puppy factories. Help send a strong message to the State's political leaders that we will not tolerate the factory farming of our companion animals. Join us on the steps of Parliament House and stand up for all the dogs on puppy factories and support Oscars Law. Download and print this flyer Watch this space for further details. vist oscar's law to get more details

yeah i know i often can't sleep at night and get my comfort in writing letters and informing you lot and also getting angry with ignorant councillors so people can help me by writing emails to the council, i might even ask RSPCA whether this councillor is correct and forward those letters of complaint to them. i suspect they'd already know about them. but its worth a try. if anyone is in Melbourne in september there is going to be a big rally about puppy farms? i will post the details in another thread, its called oscar's law oscar's law the more people that write in the more they take notice thats all we can really do.

this is one of the issues we are debating according to this councillor no residents are complaining about the farms so it gives the council reason to keep them open!!!!!!!!!! this is part of the conversation we are having, sorry its long but the amount of people complaining about this joint is large, still wellington shire continue to renew permits. i have cut and pasted our cconversations on email for people's perusal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- you said this: "People who live outside the Shire are the only people who contact councillors about puppy farms. We have had no objections from our own ratepayers and residents." "Councillors do not deal with planning applications which are decided under planning delegation. We would only deal with applications where there are a number of objections, or where the application is significant in size" "Council does not have complete power to shut down puppy breeding. Dog breeding is listed in the Victoria Planning Provisions as a legitimate agricultural industry, which requires a permit. If Council refuses to issue a permit, which it can to, the applicant and objectors have the right to appeal to VCAT. Unfortunately, VCAT rarely rejects these applications. Since its decision cannot be appealed, except to the Supreme Court on an error of law, Councils generally have to accept their decision. It then becomes a matter of enforcing the permit conditions." here is proof that its not outside people complaining about the conditions THAT AREN"T CHECKED by your people. this farm has continued to violate legislation (code of practice for registered breeding animal businesses) reason enough to close that hell hole downand the hell holes in your shire (14 of them!) DOWN. do you want more proof of what your shire says to the public is just a big front. Melissa “I was shocked at the cramped tin shed they call the “nursery”. One dog caught my eye, her teats were dragging on the ground, it was heartbreaking”. Dave “The dogs outside the nursery were on sand and only had a tin kennel, I can’t imagine how hot those dogs will get when we hit the middle of summer. I know whats its like to walk on hot sand with no shoes on. I thought the code stated they had to be provided with shade and have a certain area of their enclosure concreted?, what I saw was sickening, we had to get out of there as my girlfriend was getting upset.” Gael “I specifically asked 3 different people if I could see the back of the property, they said I couldn’t I asked why it was roped off, they couldn’t give me an answer. The staff were unsure of what to say and appeared nervous when I started asking questions. It was disgusting place and the dogs in that nursery broke my heart, what a way to live, what a way to make a living, they make me sick” Michelle “They wouldn’t let us see anything except the nursery, most of the people around me were horrified, some people started asking questions and making a scene and we were ushered out of the shed. I heard one lady ask if the dogs had names and the girl said no, then another staff member stated they did but couldn’t name them. None of the pens had dogs names on them” Graeme (ex puppy farmer) “I witnessed stacks of errors to the regulations, I didn’t see one clean water bowl, besides that the water bowls are not of the design stated in the code, they have to be non-spillable. The size of most of the pens was not conforming to the code. The hot sand the dogs live on is a real issue and I think the RSPCA would have grounds to do something under the Act there. I don’t know how they are getting away with this, Council must be getting a kickback somewhere along the line. I did some quick calculations and I reckon they would be bringing in $500,000 a year, for that amount of money those dogs should be living in luxury, I’m just glad I got out of the business” The DeBono Family “I wanted to take my kids there to teach them why I refuse to buy a puppy from a pet shop. I had no idea what to expect however was saddened by what we did see. A huge tin shed packed with nursing mother dogs, and their little puppies. I explained to my children that if we did buy a puppy from a shop this is where the money would go. My daughter and I were in tears as we left. This place was pure evil, The staff appeared very unsure of them selves, they couldn’t even tell us the dogs names. It was truly heartbreaking. The only positive of the day is I have taught my children a valuable lesson” Julie “I had a staff member follow me everywhere! As soon as I started asking questions another guy came over and all he did was bag you! (Debra Tranter from ALV). The place was a shit pit for dogs, no wonder they didn’t want you on the property” K “Well that was just sad…the dogs have no spirit in their eyes. They are just existing and that is all. We were not allowed near the main pens, just the sheds. Pens and pens of mothers with puppies, it just made me sad.” Deidre “Your right Deb (Debra Tranter from ALV), they are simply breeding machines, its exactly like a factory assembly line. I was shocked and found it hard to keep my mouth shut” Alexis and Kade “Oh my GOD! we were sickened, it was row after row of dogs and puppies. They don’t get it. If this is what they were proud to show the public, what the hell was in all the area’s they wouldn’t let us go into?” Laura ” Each pen had a sign denoting the breed of the dogs including cavalier x pug; corgi; poodle x shih tzu. When four workers, distinguishable by orange and yellow vests, were each asked on separate occasions what the names of specific dogs I was speaking to were, none of them could provide this information. Three workers said they don’t know their names, one said the same then belatedly informed me that they all do have names. Only one pen we witnessed had a name on it - the other dogs had no identification other than their breed type. It was so sad and so undermining of the social, loyal nature of ‘man’s best friends’. It was really distressing to see so many puppies when we are clearly informed that over breeding is a huge problem and causes the killing of tens of thousands of dogs in Victoria every year. The majority of the mothers appeared to be timid and actually moved to the back of their concrete pen when I neared the wire gates. A few were friendly but they were unable to have social interaction due to being enclosed behind a wire gate in the pen which were approximately 2 meters x 3 meters in size. Immediately leaving the first shed we entered another shed that contained pregnant mothers with signs that informed when the litter was due. I became emotional whilst viewing these pregnant dogs, the mothers and their litters and two puppies alone in a pen with no adult dog with them. It was at this time that a member of the Hamms family approached me and asked my name. She appeared extremely nervous and was visibly shaking. I asked this lady to take my companion and I to other area’s of the property quoting the claim by Mathew Hamms in the newspaper “we have nothing to hide”. Black and yellow tape denoted the area’s which were out of bounds for the public. The request to be taken to the back of the property was refused and I reiterated this was an opportunity to prove there really was nothing to hide and again we were refused due to ‘legalities’. I said this proves there is something to hide”. Isabelle and Michael “We were shocked at what we saw as we expected the dogs pens to have toys, shade, something for the dogs to do. We hung around some big bloke who seemed to be doing all the talking, these are some of the things we heard him saying to people. ‘We have been micro chipping for ten years’, ‘No dog from +++++ has ever been put down, if a dog is returned to us Colin pays a lady $100 to re-home it’, ‘I would like to meet with Debra Tranter to discuss issues, if she turns up today I will show her around’, ‘This is the best puppy farm’, ‘We love dogs’, ‘+++++ Puppies are not purchased on impulse’. We felt the PR machine is in overdrive, name change, open day, they are desperate to clean up their image. I think most people there saw through the crap” Violet and John “My husband compared it to a pig farm with pen after pen of sows feeding piglets. Not one dog looked happy and 90% of them were people shy. Mr Hamms daughter explained that dad likes to use cardboard boxes for the bitches to whelp in because they prefer it. More like they are cheap and he can probably get enormous amounts of them for little. We weren’t allowed down the back and were told proudly that they had just put up new shelters to conform with Council regulations. Well, what was there before? Being ex pedigree dog breeders we were horrified at the lack of disease control. There was not a foot bath to be seen and we were aghast at one woman standing in a pen holding up a puppy of approximately three weeks old, letting everyone stroke it. We were allowed to wander through the puppy and whelping pen and stoke or pat anything we wanted. It showed a lot of ignorance from an operation that has 20 years experience. The dogs had dead eyes and many of them looked really old. We didn’t get to see what was down the back, although we could see a few dogs. One had teats dragging on the ground. We drove home totally depressed” Jenny “I was really friendly and generous, saying stuff like ‘I wish my floors were heated’ and ‘Wow they look really happy’ whilst taking photos of the yellow tape restricting access to certain area’s and puppies through the wire, the sagging teats and sad eyes. I cant remember the name of our guide, she was the daughter of the owner and a teacher I think. She really kept a close eye on me and what I was taking photos of. She was really defensive, which, considering my friendly demeanor was quite suspicious. The entry of the ‘whelping house’ was guarded by the owner himself, who never managed a smile, and demanded to know why my friend and I were there. As two teenagers we may have looked a little odd at a puppy farm. However, we simply told him that we heard it on the radio and saw the add in the newspaper and were here to see some cute puppies. When we went behind the whelping house, two girls were sitting in the middle of the caged area. Every station was monitored, it was quite uncomfortable and creepy for me. The mothers behind this area were either desperate for human contact or wary and defensive, barking apprehensively at us. Tin sheds radiating heat provided a tiny amount of shade for the dogs outside. Our guide talked excessively, and her body language showed that she was very anxious. Any way from all the letters, I can tell you have the gist of what happened, and it was pretty awful. I’m so pleased that so many people are concerned about this. I have attached some photos” Louise “Some of the dogs we passed seemed slightly dirty and others quite timid. At one point I asked our guide how it was possible that 300+ breeding dogs were given adequate love, given that they are sociable animals, and she affirmed they were. Also, when my companion and I raised the issue of over breeding and reminded our guide that 200,000 dogs are euthanized every year because there are not enough homes, our guide assured us that no ++++++ puppies ended up in shelters and that the issue can be attributed to backyard breeders and accidental matings. We then moved back up the hill, we had walked in a circle and returned to the entry of the first shed. Here there were a few visitors and their presence seemed to make out guide even more nervous. She suggested we should not speak there but gestured towards an area away from the people and invited us to have a cup of tea. We declined, as we felt we were being pressured to hide ourselves and our beliefs from the public, and said we preferred to talk where we were. Then we were approached by a woman who offered to talk to us whilst our guide spoke to other visitors. This woman’s tone towards me was quite condescending and she repeated several times that I am very young (thus insinuating that I am consequently incapable of understanding the issues or approaching them rationally). She was soon joined by two other men, one who introduced himself as ++++ brother. They told us that only dogs of the ‘wrong breeds’ are dumped and end up being euthanized, implying that the Hamm’s dogs do not meet this fate. They also said dogs are usually dumped ‘for a reason’ and stated that it is ‘$60 puppies’ and ‘Kelpie x Jack Russell type dogs’, the result of accidental pregnancies that are killed in shelters. They repeated several times that +++++ was the best puppy farm in Australia. I, however said that this was a serious indictment on this industry as a whole as ++++ had been found to be violating the code. The woman then claimed that the puppy farm was a ‘work in progress’ and said that I am also a ‘work in progress’ (another reference to my youth I think). I found this statement shocking because +++++ had been operating for 20 years and had thus had plenty of time to meet animal welfare standards! At one point +++ brother seemed to try to attempt to justify the fact that ++++ had been breaking regulations by referring to the ambiguity of the relevant legislation and how difficult it was to understand. He also said something about the regulations not adequately covering puppy farms of such a large scale.

arghh i am losing patience real fast with this woman. the councillor is still debating with me, now she is saying that the council cannot revoke permits already out there, dogs are exercised daily in this farm and are happy and healthy, most of the problems dont come from these farms it is from pedigrees anyway, given that she watched "pedigree dogs exposed". still going on about livestock and dogs shouldn't get special treatment. dogs on this farm do not live in isolation according to her because she has personally gone out and seen the dogs. if they do revoke the permits and not accept them on new permits for farms the farmer can appeal via VCAT and most likely win. then she started on the same lines as the ranger saying most farms are monitored. and they have rejected an application to have even more farms down there. their hands are tied she says to stopping farms applying if they get no oppposers then they go through. i know plenty that have opposed it. she thinks i am very stupid and gullible, most of what she told me there is a heap of Bull**** so i told her so also telling her most of her statements were very ignorant, i've had enough of this person. i am pretty sure councils can not renew permits if the farm is in clear violation which they are, looking at the COP they are not up to standard at all and no one checks anyway to see if they are.

sorry to hijack your thread but i am soooooooooo mad seeing this from RSPCA, that clause right there from them has serious failings it is a heap of bullcrap because i still have an open dialogue with a councillor in wellington shire, they keep on debating with me and they just told me in the last email that they can't revoke permits given to these farms they also told me that if it goes to VCAT and they dont have a valid reason to shut them down then the farmer will appeal and most likely win. she has personally viewed the farm and the puppies are happy the mothers are exercised daily out in the fresh air. and they are not in isolation at all. they said that they can't do anything until they get complaints from actual residents and they have never got any complaints, another bullcrap story because our family have been complaining for years and i know alot of other people who have complained to the shire about these puppy farms too! they told me again for the 4th time that they monitor these farms under such and such bullcrap clause that they are probably pulling out from their a.........somewhere then they had the audacity to tell me that they have rejected a farm that was going to add to their already 14 they have in the area. i seriously doubt it. i don't trust what bullcrap she is telling me. meanwhile the ranger who doubles up as a service officer/traffic officer sent me an email to say they monitor but he went to the RSPCA forums as a guest speaker and told everyone that they don't check any farm and haven't done so for 5 years. he was caught out by a person who had all the blank audit reports. meanwhile for years this puppy farm that we are debating about (produces 1500 pups a year) has openly displayed animals in large dirt pens some with sand in them to the public on their open days, which is a clear violation of the code of practice, they are supposed to be on concrete, i know of alot of pedigree breeders that are made to jump through hoops to house their few dogs yet these large breeders get away with murder. you tube clearly features their dirt paddock pens kept like cattle. they also openly admit to breeding dogs "back to back" every season and on camera you hear the owner saying he kills the mothers after he finishes with them "there is no point in beating around the bush" - for years he denied it now he is claiming it is true. so if the councils don't want to admit there is negligence there isn't a hope in hell of going to them to stop anything so the councils blame government as its not illegal to have a puppy farm they say, the government blame councils meanwhile the farms still operate. so who do you go to??? none of them are interested hand balling to one another. its very frustrating debating with wood heads sitting pretty in councils who have no idea and that protect at all costs these dog farmers claiming that the dogs are very well looked after when people have photos and seen it all with their own eyes. then this councillor has the gaul to run down pedigree breeders on the basis of that stupid pedigree dogs exposed from the UK. so i said that has nothing to do with aussie dogs. she is still going on about cows and sheep and pigs and chooks and how hard they are done by why should dogs get special priveleges. its obvious why!!! I give up. i am so mad that there is ignorant gits in councils that are in charge of approving or disapproving permits but claim their hands are tied. so who is telling the truth here, i am pretty sure they don't have to approve every application that comes through their doors and they can revoke permits of the farms they already have in the region. ;)