toy dog

no, what im saying is breeding should be done not for a humans own selfish bank account but for the welfare of the dogs they have. the animals rely on us to look after them and it is up to us to make sure they come into this world as healthy as we can by researching, now puppy farmers with 2-3-4 breeds in the one poor puppy are unable to do this because they know nothing about the dogs they are breeding and don't want to know all they want to know about is how fast they can sell when they'll be out the door and how much money they will get. the pedigree dog if bred correctly with care is a far superior choice for consumers and people wake up to this after being stung. i've been told this too by a person in council, there is a market for these designer dogs so why not? there is a market for any puppies really, people just want a pet puppy so will end up going to a petshop or puppy farm until they learn how the dog was bred and how they are helping to keep thousands more dogs in prisons their whole life.

arielle, this subject has come up again and again and it always makes me feel i've lost faith in the dog world when you get told that we should not be protesting about these mongrel puppy farms and more so because i am a registered breeder and it is a no-no . if that is regarded as me being hysterical or others being hystercial then shoot me . for me there is no difference between a pedigree dog over a cross if they are in need and need to be rescued then they are all dogs at the end of the day. i feel sorry for the poor buggers stuck in puppy farms being bred every season no health checks and suffer from genetic problems simply because their human doesn't bother to do any research, then discarded like rubbish when they cannot breed anymore. and me and my friends will fight to the very end until we see puppy farms and dogs being housed in their hundreds being bred for profit, outlawed. most of the time large scale puppy farms house dogs of several different breeds bred together but not always. the goal is the same breed as many dogs as they can for the mighty dollar cut corners no thought for the dogs in question. this is cruelty to me and always will be.

i think it is blatantly clear what people are protesting about when it comes to these bloody farms. i think it creates awareness people then begin to look up on the internet why not and the word spreads. seen this first hand with a few people which is good. which is what we want. to foil their sales in these farms and it has happened that way too. i've written a whole paragraph on the why we shouldn't have puppy farms in our society today licenced or not they are all the same, same goals. and the feeling is not just mine alone there are thousands more people just like me. i just find it disheartening that a few of you have made it very clear and are suggesting that we turn a blind eye to "designer dog" intensive dog farms not registered hobby breeders because we will be next on the hit list that is ridiculous. to fight to keep them open and not say a thing against is only coupling us all with these thugs and they are thugs too. read prisoner for profit website and you will know what these farmers get up to. i know i've had experience with a few that are mentioned and they are not nice people, if you can do that to an animal all for the sake of your own selfish needs, not nice people in my books. as i said, ANKC and state controlling body in Vic went to the govt and asked to be exempt from being included in domestic animal businesses so it was said that a registered hobby breeder can have 10 fertile bitches and does not state how many dogs providing authority and appropriate permits are granted within the shire/council the breeder lives in. just because reg with ANKC doesn't mean we are not above the law. having a permit means council have every right to inspect etc. etc. ours hasn't yet in 26 years. but code of ethics reading that and then reading the code of conduct required for a domestic business is slightly similar but they reccognise a hobby breeder and having 10 fertile bitches etc. so no need to set a criteria already been done. i mean i know of some councils with people applying for permits for their dogs have to have outside kennels a certain way from the neighbouring fence and comply with other conditions too to get a permit so we aren't all above the law simply because we are ANKC reg but in the public eye and these farmers are saying we don't follow any law at all to try and sway the public that they are better because they are licenced. my point is just because these farms are licenced doesn't mean they are following all the code in place a good many of them don't because not enough resources to check each and every licenced puppy farm so the public and animal groups have to take it into their own hands by raiding. and quite recently one such farm was and they were quoting to the media that they were a top kennel and there was no need to be raided yet there is proof this is not true at all. they try and paint a fluffy picture to the public and for years they've been doing this.

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along. Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority. the RSPCA is doing this turning it all into a circus based on ignorance of a program that was aired in the UK we all know what im talking about, thats what their rubbish is about on their website but ANKC answered what they are doing about it yadda yadda yadda one minute they say go to a registered ANKC breeder and really screen the breeder but on the other hand they are bagging us. AFAIK this is where it is all coming from and all because they want to stop puppy farms but say and it is true that just becuase a breeder is registered doesn't mean they aint a puppy farm. farmers come in many different disguises these days. but....thinking about all this for many years breeds have been in fashion for instance in the late 70's afgans were extremely popular and every second person bred these now you'd find it hard to buy one, you can still ofcourse but they aren't around in volumes like they used to be. so im thinking that maybe DD's might go out of fashion eventually might take a few years, the only reason why this has all escalated and we see a group for cross breed breeders is all because of the internet and also because they are there because of money. yes we are in the minority because ignorance is bliss and it spreads like wildfire especially if you market it right like they have done through the media.

I believe if you look at population growth in the last decade Vs the number of dogs in shelters you would see that your hysterical assertions are false. im sorry but i don't believe it is "hysterics" as you say, i am one of many many people who don't want these puppy farms and im talking about actual residents in that area who dont' want it coupled with a large proportion of the public, what im talking about is NOT REGISTERED BREEDERS let us be clear on this, it is about DESIGNER DOG CROSS BREEDS being bred for profit in highly intensive breeding farms. i believe this is nothing to do with a hobby registered breeder is it????????? or is it?????

yes it's called democracy. You know where the citizens of a country agree to abide by a set of systems and regulations, buy their own land and then act accordingly. Who cares what you want. You want something different for the land in Ballan? - Next time a big piece of land goes up for sale, buy it for yourself. And be happy when you make your bank repayments that you prevented a puppy farm from being established. according to your signature you don't even come from this country so do you know what is going on behind the scenes at all? and comments about me buying land and preventing puppy farms is uncalled for really, it is irrelevant.

yes it's called democracy. You know where the citizens of a country agree to abide by a set of systems and regulations, buy their own land and then act accordingly. Who cares what you want. You want something different for the land in Ballan? - Next time a big piece of land goes up for sale, buy it for yourself. And be happy when you make your bank repayments that you prevented a puppy farm from being established. so what are we saying here? are we sticking up for these big designer dog intensive puppy farms are we? what is your point? we seem to be confusing a hobby breeder who breeds for a purpose with a mongrel puppy farmer who breeds for their hip pocket cuts corners at every turn and treats the dogs like crap. how they treat the dog in these farms and it has been found over and over again behind the scenes in these concentration camps for dogs i call them. Farmers just throw over the fence dry food and the ones that can get it get fed the ones that can't get the food don't eat. how else would these farmers feed over 1000 dogs on the premises and only having 5 staff to tend to all those dogs plus 2000 pups. and that is a farm that is supposed to be licenced and above code. it has also been found that these dogs are treated like cows so left to birth on their own the owner just goes to bed and leaves the poor dogs to it, so if puppy found stuck in birth canal dead and also mum dead who cares plenty more where that came from. and if they are found dead in the morning checks who cares. dogs aren't socialised or part of a family they are like caged chooks in cages. not to mention keep churning out thousands upon thousands of puppies in these conditions. and they are appauling conditions, no food or water, dirty bowls dirty trampoline beds that are minus the canvas coverings so the dog just sits on the concrete anyway, all dirty cages just poo everywhere, its all on youtube go and have a look at the raids that take place often because as i say the law fails these dogs and they are hidden away and forgotten about. this is what is being fought for here. its not about the humans and what rights they have to do whatever they want on their own land, just say someone was abusing a child on their property an innocent child would you expect people to turn a blind eye to this cruelty too? its about treating the innocents humanely, those poor dogs are the innocents in all this. this is not how they should be treated. is it? and becuase its the farmers own land he can do what he wants to these beautiful animals its not our problem? its not our business its not anyone's business what they do to them but when a rescue group gets these dogs becsue the farmer has dumped them in appauling condition its still not anyone's problem then? so how is this good and how do we liken these types of rotten people to us as a group? and what we stand for as a group? why should we all bear the brunt of what these types of people do to their dogs for pure profit only the welfare is sadly lacking, only breeding crap as missy moo says for their own selfish needs. thats the problem they (RPSCA and government) are trying to bung us all in the one, no drawing of lines anymore, we all apparently farm our dogs for profit, there's no breeding dogs for a purpose anymore its all about $$$.

i sometimes fix the computers at work here and troubleshoot our computers, brother is a programmer, just a hobby i have but have you guys tried to ring the company to ascertain if its their end that is the slow conection or is your end? sometimes it can be a number of things like the browser not being cleaned out it can slow down things alot, also not defragging or cleaning out registry or temp files. or the size of your RAM disk as well can have a significant impact. if the memory is small then it slows things down alot on the net.

i just remembered that he had a calendar made up and patch was in one photo at the back of the GR doing you know what to her. i couldn't believe he'd actually used the photo, when he showed my parents it was like thats not a good photo! oh boy

perhaps that's the reason he was humping... he was showing just how dominant he was. .... yep i agree, however he wasn't my dog so my brother used to just laugh at this and let him do the things he was doing. think it was funny.....i told him that i'd never let a dog do the things he was doing it was dangerous, this dog had even tried to spring up and nip me on the nose but i moved my nose just intime and then he told me that my dog was the agressive dominant one not his dog : confused: ( i guess its a family thing lol) so some people you can't tell them only suggest eventhough he has owned dogs for 5 minutes compared to my 26 years. but then i managed to convince him to bring in a personal trainer so he did that then gave the dog to another person. hopefully this other person has managed to control the dominance issue in the dog and not think its all funny.

forgot to add, these people we are talking about has a history of abuse of animals. that is why the council didn't want them, the animal people didn't want them and also the residents dont' want them either but they are all going to be lumped with these people. jsut because they are building a fancy new house mainly it is a big house they are building for themselves doesn't mean they can't abuse their animals that they will have in their care. i say to all reg breeders make sure what you sell is desexed because these farmers will go to any lengths to get dogs to breed with. they have tried to trick us into getting our dogs for years. but we only sell our dogs desexed and upon hearing that they threw an absolute fit. so these days these farmers are getting mighty desperate to make their money.

but there is a difference. the animal people as you put it, are just normal people in the public concerned with intensive farming of dogs for pure profit only. Like us and i know of many many other registered breeders who feel the same as we do, passionate about saving animals therefore are totally against these designer dog puppy farms! for some reason not many feel like voicing their opinion to other reg breeders as many get ridiculed over it as we (many we's unfortunately) are often mixing puppy farmers up with reg purebred breeders who do the right thing. and i got told there are some that are reg breeders who also farm cross breed dogs so now its like they dont' know who to trust. if you are a breeder you are tarred with the same brush. i think it is because they think that if you breed dogs you only breed for one reason and that is to make money. this is talking to the head of these animal groups and other people who run these groups. but we all have the same idea and that is to abolish puppy farms. and as i proved last time, ANKC members are allowed to have 10 fertile bitches and no mention of how many dogs but ofcourse you need a licence with your council before we fall into being classed as domestic animal business like the puppy farm operators. 10 fertile bitches is alot more than enough to establish a good workable bloodline of dogs in any breed i would have thought. i saw on one of the councils reports about puppy farmers and breeders that they can't touch an ANKC member who has dogs under 10-12 dogs but they said they'd like to and treat them like a domestic animal business there are apparently many in the region who fall under code of ethics of ANKC rather than classed as domestic animal business.

true but what right have they got to farm a domestic animal and foist the product of their farms onto the general public when we are killing the same product at alarming rates in shelters. they are farming something that has no benefit to society like a farmer of livestock is for us to survive (and it really gets my goat how many compare a livestock farmer to these nasty guys), whereas these guys are doing it for their own benefit and asking society to pick up the slack. the sheer volume that they produce does not allow them to monitor what they produce, i heard that most of the ones they get back they only rehome a very small number to keep it above board the rest are put down but its a very small number that they get back and rehome. its like the backyarders that i work with, they don't have any responsiblity for what they breed. the tax payer picks up the tab in the end. also steve, why is puppy farmers breeding cross breed designer dogs for pure profit only put in the same boat as a registered breeder breeding for a purpose other than farming his or her dogs?

Because there is no other kind. But thank you for your interest. yes i thought that was a good summary of the whole thing too

you can find a rescue dog with a pleasant nature who gets on fine with your other dog. fostered dogs are a good idea as the foster carer will tell you how the dog is with other dogs, cats etc. etc. and match you up with the dog. then be there if anything goes wrong anyway. it really depends on the history combined with the temperament of the dog in question. example: brother got "patch" a border collie cross male desexed from RSPCA I got a rescue pointer cross kelpie cross male desexed "jake" from a rescue organisation. they were fine together when we'd visit then patch started protecting my brothers female desexed golden retriever, it was his female so jake and patch ended up having big fights so we had to seperate.. i said that i think patch was used as a breeding dog in his past as he was also humping Pru the GR bitch even though desexed and going through those motions. having said that, i got my dog jake because of his gentle nature towards little dogs, my chihuahuas love him. when we first met him and brought my little dogs into the rescuers living room he growled i said, i don't think he will suit, rescuer said that is what he does with all dogs he meets. gives a growl then settles down. patch was a very dominant dog used to also guard my brothers sofa and not let any of his friends sit on it it was his sofa. lol so its all about their past history and also their temperament as well combined. you can find a very placid dog in both sexes. but i always advise people to get a male and female as usually there are no dominance issues about guarding bitches if they have been used for breeding before and it is a behaviour that can be hard for them to snap out of if its been there for years. but really it is all about matching dogs temperaments up having one dominant and one submissive or both submissive works well i find.

there is such a thing as hoarding too don't forget that as i've come across a few in my time, the breeder cannot see what they are actually doing to the dogs as they are denied basic care in the end because they have too many for each dog to get individual care.. and many others just turn a blind eye they know whats going on but still those dogs suffer. i think it sticks out a mile what the goals of a breeder are whether its for just plain money or for a purpose other than money motivation. and yes, if you do it all properly you lose out on money rather than gaining it. i refuse to do a tally on how much money we've actually spent because i don't want to spoil my enjoyment of my dogs. i think it also depends on what breeders attitudes are with a certain breed of dog, if they are wanting to share their knowledge and dogs with newcomers this can also make a big difference in numbers. it also ties in with the breed clubs the attitudes there for the betterment of the breed. i think that many reg breeders think that we don't need advertising and because of this i think we are disappearing in to the background. also ignorance has a lot to do with it too, these days the cross bred is being marketted better than a pedigree so we are loosing people this way out of the purebred dog world. i don't think its about money or people wanting to spend less or what they can afford looking at how its always been in the past 25-30 years ago or more and looking at now. much the same really.

it just sounds like to me that someone maybe in VCAT has a vested interest in these operations i was thinking that the other day, because time after time other councils didn't want farms in their shires and refuse to give the operators a licence so when it gets to VCAT they always over turn it - the farmers always get their licence in the end. it says that the shire in Ballan did not want any puppy farms and the residents don't want any puppy farms but still they are all forced to have this puppy farm. my own shire where i currently live says there are no puppy farms in the region as well. but looking at that and reading it i thought i bet ya there are still farms here that are ofcourse not licenced so technically under the radar keeping it quiet.

this subject i am very passionate about as my family have watched these farms crop up in the beginning but we could do nothing about it then oscar law people came in and publicised it widely which has been a very good thing and the campaign over the years has spread which is good to see. if you google prisoners for profit you will find more information about this case. this website is put up by the organisers of oscar law, these ballan people have been very cruel to dogs in the past, im sure it is the same ones that were found guilty of starving dogs and tying dogs to old cars in horrific conditions, im pretty sure of that, i've been following this page for years and also have talked to many about this very thing. i might have to google the name and see what it comes up with. the fact is RSPCA said no, the public said no, oscars law said no but VCAT said yes. they might have to operate under code of ethics by having a licence but many have been found to still operate outside the law as no one has enough resources to be checking each and every farm in the state, it is left to the councils still and councils are barely able to cope with most only allotting one or maybe 2 animal officers and the only way these dogs can be saved is for the dogs to be in such appauling condition no food no water etc etc that the RSPCA can get in there with rescuers to raid or whatever. people are feeling powerless against these farms that keep cropping up everywhere. also most of these farms great majority of them are cross bred little fluffies that sell well in the public with no family of dogs health checks and some may get genetic problems plus buyers are not given any expert grooming tips or how to care for these dogs plus farms don't backup their pups sold to keep them out of shelters being dumped the list goes on why we don't need these intensive puppy farms in society today. the law is failing these dogs in a big way. I mean fair enough that some believe that we need them to come under the radar by getting them licenced so we can monitor them and the government saying this but they aint backing it all up by actually employing enough to be checking each and every farm so a few still continue to churn out pups all within the law when we have enough farms churning out thousands of pups and have enough wanting homes in shelters across the country. so i guess oscar law have a point try to stop these farms and outlaw puppy farms full stop. the only true way we can do this is to get to the public and educate them to not buy these pups. it is a good point as many have pointed out on this forum that if we stop them getting a licence then these farm operators will go underground anyway. so in essence you will not stop all this, the only way is for the public to have the power to boycott buying pups in this way (from puppy farms online, or on their premises or from a petshop). i believe that when you look at society and the amount of dogs needing homes in rescue organisations and shelters and the are overflowing why have these intense breeding farms of our dogs when there are plenty waiting for homes and are being put down because there is not enough but still these farms are churning out thousands upon thousands of dogs (2000 for one farm so multiply that by 70-80 in Victoria alone).

hi welcome to DOL i notice this is your first post? basically, some chihuahuas are just made this way and no matter how much socialising you do with them as pups they still end up fearful and timid. unfortunately. it is to do with their make up and genetics, if the parents were fearful timid dogs the pups most of them end up this way too. we've proven that with our breeding of our showdogs for many years. my frist dogs were very timid but still i managed to show them and people would come and say they thought they were friendly dogs they would not flinch on the table when the judge went over them. clever handling this is what i say about "masking" the temperament but at the end of the day they are what they are and you can't really change their temperament. as i say i have successfully trained some timid chihuahuas of ours to behave in a manner that can only be described as indifference to people and dogs. it requires alot of training to get them to this stage. if i was you, i'd see about maybe getting in a personal trainer to work with you and the dog. or you can try arming your guests with yummy treats and encouraging your little dog that way but this takes many months, when they are fearful like that they do sometimes tend to start nipping or biting or going through those motions too. there is a chi thread in the sub forums under general if you would like to come on in you are most welcome, and see if other chi lovers can help you

get him medically checked out before you begin. no snacks inbetween and make sure the dog isn't eating someone elses meal like cat?? or other dogs. i always give mine a very tiny amount in their bowl and fill the rest up with milk but also make sure the meal is low fat no carbs like rice or pasta. i also don't give them a meal at night so they sit on it all night or sleep on it. try to feed them during the day or morning. once a day. exercising every day for 10-15 mins may help too.

i think years ago you didn't hear of this over flow in shelters like you do now since the publicity of making a quick buck with breeding dogs 15-18 years ago or so, i believe it has created this low value for animals as disposals. when you look at backyarders and we have one at work, who encourages people to breed their undesexed dogs (had to really convince a recent buyer of a BB to desex their dog) all the while this backyard breeder kept pushing they could make a lot of money. when i asked them what do they do if someone brought back a puppy they bred saying they can no longer look after the dog and want to put it down, the answer was so???? who cares. its their dog now got nothing to do with me. so this is the society we are creating instead of having breeders who care about what they breed and make sure the home is suitable then back up the dog if ever it is in need of going to another home. too many are breeding without a thought for the dogs for just money and don't care if the dog ends up in a shelter. if every breeder cared about what they bred and rehomed then this i believe would reduce the amount in shelters significally. and this intense dog farming operations able to survive because of society's attitudes. they make a good profit despite one farm producing 2 thousand puppies a year - if there are 20 25 farms in one area alone then how many puppies a year, and you have to wonder where do all these pups go? they said that there is a need to produce pets and fill demand and that demand is something like 300,000 pets a year but then how many are we killing a year, its just looney.

people like that give a bad name to all dog owners! it sounds to me that owner is very irresponsible. some think just because its a chihuahua and small they don't have to worry about it and let it wander around obviously so it can trip someone up and rush at them. if she doesn't have fences then keep it inside and when outside to toilet or whatever use a lead.

this doesn't really create a positive attitude about the pedigree dog world when this kind of things happens between a breeder and a new comer. not honoring a written agreement that is disgusting in my humble opinion.

there's another thread about this eTA: but yeah aussie breed of dog sort of like crocodile dundee theme abit.

i sometimes like watching kids movies, no swearing no violence, sometimes the mature audiences ones are too stressful to watch at times.