toy dog

im a city slicker suffering from memory loss! yes, we had dogs who would go and flush out the rabbits after sticking the rifle over the fence, nice tea at night, only visited a supermarket every fortnight just eat of the land. don't think you could do that now, i think wild rabbits suffer from (well they did later on) mixamotosis etc. the dogs would go down the burrow, then after they were finished come back home. my first litter BTW in the chookyard was a chihuahua. no spoilt indoor dog there. one of my very first chihuahuas the breeder was just a backyarder, but her chihuahuas would go down the burrow too. chis make good rabbit dogs i got told. the only prob with that was those dogs ended up disappearing down a hole one day and never came back up. mum brought a farming breed cross (kelpie cross border cross) from the city to live in the country when she first married dad, went on the honey moon and my grandfather was supposed to look after her dog.....as per normal tied her around the fig tree with a bowl of water, parents came back to find a dead dog, the dog hadn't been moved in the shade and died of heat stroke! i hate that story was before i was born. in those days no one gave a thought to animal cruelty well my granddad being a farmer did some cruel things i heard in later years.

yep i will never stop offering that drink.

sorry but not that im saying anything against it i just had no idea. Toy Dogs, I am very glad that you said this, and I understand that many people who own pets in the city, or own small breeds of dog, wouldn't have had any idea either. The dog world is made up of many different people with many different ideas and attitudes because the dogs themselves are so hugely varied and what works for Chihuahuas in town or the city, is not going to work for a bunch of bigger dogs out there in the country areas. I have a friend on a property who has electric fencing on almost every fence, down really low on the fence. I asked him why he put it that low down on the fence. He looked at me as if I was a dumb town person and said, i] "To keep the wombats from digging buddy great holes under the fences, holes that will let the dogs out by morning!"[/i] Now if I was a concerned animal rights person I would have been horrified to see all that electric fencing and I might have accused him of all sorts of cruel practices. But in fact he was SAFEGUARDING his dogs! Apparently the wombats are not harmed by the kick from the tape, and simply go off and dig a hole somewhere else. To achieve tolerance and understanding in this wonderful old world of ours, we have to learn to see the other persons point of view, BEFORE we put the boot in. When I was a kid, we had wooden kennels for the dogs outside; we put a wheat bag in the kennel for their comfort and the ungrateful dogs would constantly drag it outside into the mud! The dogs were tied up to a big stake outside the kennel on a long length of dog chain so they could go outside to pee. Their food bowl was often an old saucepan and it was bashed and dented and some of the clowns would occasionally carry it round or put it on their head! Water was in a concrete trough, always plenty of water. We kids used to rake up the poo but never ever washed the area down - the rain did that. If it was drought, well... we just had to wait for the rain. No parvo. No disease. But there were fleas, and we had didnt have any nice flea products back then, so we used to sit in the dirt with the dogs on a nice sunny day and pick off the fleas and kill em on a rock. We sometimes sneaked a small tin of Arnotts biscuits out with us to share with the dog while we "did the fleas". Charming! Were our dogs loved? You bet! Were they healthy? Absolutely! Greatest joy after school was to the let the dogs off and go for a run down to the creek! Or to go down to the neighbour's horse paddock and mess around for a few hours while the dogs went rabbiting. They never strayed away - one whistle and they would bolt back to us. These were not Chihuahuas, or Pomeranians, or indoor dogs. These were dogs that were designed to live a healthy life in very basic conditions. Just like dogs in Africa have lived for centuries. And like dogs in many other countries. Not an ounce of concrete within cooee of the dogs place. No cosy dog beds. No kongs, but plenty of fresh meaty bones. Some of the dogs have natural double coats that are designed for sleeping outdoors in very cold climates. I just cringe when I see pet owners putting fancy fabric coats on such dogs as the poor dog's thermostat must go into overdrive! I am not for one minute making excuses for people keeping dogs in bad conditions, but I do think that people who want to get involved in animal welfare issues first need to spend a lot more time with breeders of a wide variety of dogs. The dog world is very diverse and what works well for one breed simply does not apply, or is totally unwarranted, for another breed. For the record, my dogs today do not sleep in wooden kennels surrounded by dirt (or mud) and are not chained up to a steel post. And they don't eat out of saucepans. They are totally different breeds and have totally different needs. But the dogs of my past were loved, were healthy, and were very happy dogs. I have absolutely no problem when I look at the dogs in the dirt yards in those photos. They have more freedom than a farm dog on a chain. However, I would caution anyone about removing a dog from that environment - to do so is an act of cruelty in itself. Psychological cruelty. It cannot be turned into a household pet because the life it has is the life it knows and is conditioned to. I absolutely shudder when I read that a number of dogs were taken from kennels on a property - it is akin to taking in a wild animal and expecting to train it like a new puppy. It is mental cruelty perpetuated on an animal ... by people who claim they are helping the dogs. Too sad for words. And, for the record, I have no problem with the appropriate use of electric fencing - if it used to keep animals safe. Souff amen to that Souff, the voice of reason. yes, for the last 20 years or so, i have lived in the city with my small toydogs, but before that i come from a farming family. my first litter was born in a chookyard in the old kennel, this was MY first litter but not by any means the first time we'd seen pups born (aunt had show winning pekes back then as well), a time when there were no DD's and mongrel cross breeds only cost $5 in those days my father said that a dogs place is outside. my dad came from a farm so did his dad before him and it goes on for many generations. now look at him, he's gone soft in his old age, he has dogs in his bed now good ol' dad.......all the dogs are inside...... different bloke. (well really what happened is my mum who is a born and bred "city slicker" and me converted him!) my brother and i moved to the city to find work as in the country there was none and i know of many kids of my generation that had to do this, there is no one left hardly now. back then i'd always wanted a "farm dog" but wasn't allowed to have one of my very own so i got a chihuahua instead that happened to be registered thank dog. didn't know anything about pedigrees. today, i eventually got my "farm dog" a dog that was tied up to a pole in the middle of the yard with a maltese because they were going to be used for a "new breed".....anyone would think my ol' "farm doggy" was tied up because he jumped fences. nope. just neglected, not fed no water, maltese was in a small cage near him. a rescue dog, Jake is my dream dog that i always wanted as a kid. so yeah, when you live in the city when you come from the country originally you tend to forget you tend to go "soft" you slowly become without realising a "city slicker"....

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eh sorry not following? the right people have the evidence for sure don't worry. can't say more than that. i am just repeating what im reading i am not the right people to answer you i am sorry. but as i said before see what my friend says and i will get back to you with hopefully more of a case. yeah and that sux big time :rolleyes: ETA you know what no one has come near us for 25 years. like them i am sure. no one is interested in inspecting anything in that area. lol thats what im saying no one does their jobs down there like they are supposed to at all.

hmmm well council weren't doing that they supposedly had to do regular inspection with record keeping and the sheets were blank for 5 years.

double post

sorry but :rolleyes: not that im saying anything against it i just had no idea.

The mandatory code doesnt say they can't breed every season. The mandatory code doesnt say they cant have them in yards with dirt and grass. Id rather see dogs running in large pens than living their whole lives on concrete. Do you have only concrete where your dogs run? If in fact there are laws which say that those dogs have to be on concrete then yours have to be too. Bitches must be at least twelve months of age before being mated and a bitch must not have more than two litters in any eighteen month period. doesn't this mean the same thing? this is not what they are doing apparently they are violating this - breeding every season is what im reading. the fact that they spend their time in paddocks like cattle on dirt not grass there's no grass to be seen BTW don't believe me see the footage i gave you to view.......with their type of coat as you see in one picture has dirt on his coat and is matted. an oodle coat and dirt don't think mix very well. their beds must be constructed of other material besides concrete, concrete is easier to clean than just plain dirt, this is why they stipulate must be of material (but does not mention concrete) that can be easily cleaned. one of my first pedigree dogs came from a farmer (i didn't even know the term then) that just had her dogs on dirt and mud in the cold, its not ideal. she got closed down in the end from RSPCA and the council down there. the dogs were dirty and matted. kept like cattle as well. You must be looking at a different mandatory code to me - could you please direct me to where you got this from? When those photos were taken we were right in the middle of the biggest drought we have ever had to live through and peopel across rural australia had back yards that looked like that. In this town there wouldnt have been more than a dozen houses which did have a blade of grass. Dogs all over this country live in back yards they dont all sleep on satin pillows and thats not good surface either - nor is carpet.Talking about one kennel which is supposedly breaching the codes and swapping over to one you bought a puppy from doesnt back up why council should shut these people down. i will have to ask Steve as i am reading the same information as you on that site i directed you to. i will have to get back to you. they did tell me but my memory is a bit vague at the moment, will email and find out. i got that from the same code you got your quote from - saw that in there too. lol mandatory code for breeding and rearing establishments. vic government. ?????? here under 3.2 vaccination and health care of breeding animals

its just cruel for these farmers to be breeding dogs like wall to wall cattle surrounded by electric fences full stop whereever they blinkin well keep them :rolleyes: how they win? if we succeed in closing that mob down, thats how they win.

The mandatory code doesnt say they can't breed every season. The mandatory code doesnt say they cant have them in yards with dirt and grass. Id rather see dogs running in large pens than living their whole lives on concrete. Do you have only concrete where your dogs run? If in fact there are laws which say that those dogs have to be on concrete then yours have to be too. Bitches must be at least twelve months of age before being mated and a bitch must not have more than two litters in any eighteen month period. doesn't this mean the same thing? this is not what they are doing apparently they are violating this - breeding every season is what im reading. the fact that they spend their time in paddocks like cattle on dirt not grass there's no grass to be seen BTW don't believe me see the footage i gave you to view.......with their type of coat as you see in one picture has dirt on his coat and is matted. an oodle coat and dirt don't think mix very well. their beds must be constructed of other material besides concrete, concrete is easier to clean than just plain dirt, this is why they stipulate must be of material (but does not mention concrete) that can be easily cleaned. one of my first pedigree dogs came from a farmer (i didn't even know the term then) that just had her dogs on dirt and mud in the cold, its not ideal. she got closed down in the end from RSPCA and the council down there. the dogs were dirty and matted. kept like cattle as well.

no these dogs are being kept in these areas all the time, some dogs are on concrete some not so.

if you look at the link i gave everyone, you will see pictures taken from visitors on the day and will see the dogs sitting on dirt in tin sheds rows and rows. the dogs are meant to be on concrete, some areas are but they said that very large areas the dogs are only in paddocks like cattle, as stated on the 7.30 report as well. the owner even admits that its not ideal but they get to run free adn the mothers get exercise regularly. i think you can get the segment on youtube i will see if i can find it again. also the code states that bitches must have a rest but apparently these guys are breeding every season without rest as stated from an ex-worker or two or three. and there are other violation as well but i'd have to look to find out what they were. the reporter says this area is pretty dry and desolate, he answers its not ideal! you can see where the dogs are being kept and what people are up in arms about now is the electric fences that surround the dogs to keep them in or keep people out, can't understand why they have the electric fences but they do this with cattle on farms too. the dogs are nothing but cattle to this family.this is from an ex-worker from a puppy farm in gippsland there are 14 of them so that raid they did in gippsland with chris brown could have been any of the 14, i've blanked out the name of the farm....... I worked at **** for a few weeks, it was working in hell. Its now called ****. The bitches were forced to be mated all the time and to several different dogs, some were kept on chains. No one knew what cross the pups were and they were sold as whatever was wanted. Dogs and puppies were bought and sold in dozens from the other puppy farms.On one awful day 14 dogs were killed by the Boronia vet, they were no longer wanted for breeding, no one cared. Mum dogs gave birth on their own and many died because they couldn’t get the pups out. Mums were in agony all night and if they were alive still in the morning the vet was paid to save the puppies. The vets were busy mending birth defects very cheaply but the new owners were never told that the puppies had been operated on. The mum dogs were just called stupid for not birthing lots of puppies to sell and killed when the litters got small,they were mated every season every year until they wore out, some were really old. I was told more than a hundred were killed every year for being useless as well as the bitches and dogs that died from neglect. I was so sick with the poor dogs suffering I left after more dogs were destroyed. *****Puppy Farm is Hell on Earth, for God’s sake close it down.

Sad isnt it its a joke really Atleast you have tryed but yes i do belive stress is a killer.. :D Sorry SOUFf...l dont think the word regulate was a badly choosen word for all sites INCLUDEing petklink... Regulate as in makeing sure the pups on the site are DESEXED...microchipped and above board..Nothing wrong with trying is there? And before you say that cant happen take this on board please adds in local papers were regulated and had checks placed on them to make sure they were licenced to sell pups. Yeap even in the wellington shire WOW amazeing hey dont' have to be sorry you are 100% right. :D

i've given up writing emails to council down that way actually as you can't talk to ignorant people that just don't wanna listen, its very frustrating! banksia park the jokes on you and yes mortonplace the stress could very well kill me, talking to the councillors and getting their stupid lectures was like talking to brick walls.

they advertise in the local paper (our family live down here) and always make out they are the best and are following codes of practice when they haven't been for years as stated again on prisoners for profit website . so its all a farce......just to make themselves look good in the public eye but all is not good at all.........

Yes I noticed that. They are demanding 'open stud books' so that parentage and ancestry of a dog can be traced back over the generations. For the greater good. They want and have that info, so that they can draw a line in the sand when in comes to COI's and place yet another restriction on what we can and can't do as breeders. ETA: of course that will be for the "greater good" Ok lets back up. Open stud books means the stub book is not closed to outside dogs from other non approved registries or dogs with out registration. To open a stud book means that you allow dogs that are not registered in the stud book or an already acceptable outside stud book to enter into your stud book. For example, if you open the stud book for kelpies, it could mean that all the WKC dogs and the farm kelpies could then be registered in ANKC (which they currently can not be). It can also mean that you cross the current population of a breed with another breed to increase the genetic diversity, another words controlled cross breeding. Opening a stud book or having open stud books, has nothing to do with allowing someone to see the pedigrees. Pedigrees are already public information, can be purchased on disc and the RSPCA opps I mean Syn Uni already have them. They already did the COI for the ANKC breeds and it was much lower than they had indicated it would be. I think Steve has those numbers. So the RSPCA calling for the stud books to be opened so you can look back at the pedigree, shows that they have no idea what is meant by opening stud books. Even though they have no idea what it means, and what they think it means is wrong, it is still a welfare issue in purebred dogs. Heaven help us. For the greater good. My apologies, I read your orginal comment incorrectly. I do understand what an open stud book is and how it operates. :D Yes I knew that :D However there may be many people (including the RSPCA Vic webpage) that do not know what it means. I was a miss not to start with education on the subject first, so everyone would understand my comments. BTW for those who may not know. A Closed stub book means that only approved outside registered dogs can entry into the breeding population. Neither a closed or open stud book in themsleves indicate anything about the heatlh or welfare of the breed in question. All issues surronding open, partial open or closed stud books need to be addressed for each breed as a seperate issue. There should never be a sweeping uniform 'correct' policy on closing or opening stud books for all breeds, that would be contra indicated and potentially a very reckless position reguarding health and welfare. All matters concerning opening or closing a stud book should be discussed on a breed by breed basis. hey but didn't they have on that doco calling for all breeds to be mixed to get diversity as they put it, so i think they know what it means and they are calling for other breeds to mingle. shows that they don't know dilly squat just like the councils. i did read it somewhere too. they believe that cross breeds are more healthier than the pedigree but there is no evidence to suggest this but still they keep on stating it. they can go and that aint gona happen from a bunch of people that don't know what they are talking about and reckon they do!

and substandard will include our homes... you will need DA approved kennels in order to survive as a breeder. The only other thing to do, will be move to NZ.

i tried to get hoards of people emailing the council that happily keeps on approving these farms and refuses to shut them down even though they violate the code of practice over many years. they complained about being bombarded then set up an automatic response to the hoards telling everyone they were monitoring these farms which turned out to be a down right lie. it is left to councils like wellington to monitor and ensure the legislation in place is followed but they are doing dilly squat. so then me and my friend (BTW we are both registered breeders, my friend has been for 40 plus years) wrote to the premier who buck passed it to another minister who buck passes it to others. they all buck pass. so one person on their own can't do much but heaps of people can do alot. i'd like to see some sort of rally on the steps of wellington shire one day. they need to be stopped......thats what i'd like to see to get this council to take notice and stop approving these farms. they see nothing wrong with mass producing puppies in farms the councillors have personally told me in private emails. been doing it for years as my family watched in horror, so the kennel club down here (heavily involved in the kennel club back then) wrote to the shire opposing it and i know of alot of residents that did but still the farms went ahead. this was about 18 years ago now. so what other avenue can we take other than what ALV are doing now and that is collecting a heap of people who feel the same way and lobbying government to stop selling pets in shops? i think it is a good start it is getting good media coverage now so many are getting onboard which is what we want. i just wish that registered breeders would be united enough to get a profile together in the general public too. liberal if they get in this state, want to put more laws in place and on their facebook page many are calling for him to do something historic not put in more laws, go the whole hog, ban sales. but its a start, at least the opposition is trying to get the vote and have actually answered the public. whereas the guy that is in now hasn't said a word hardly about this issue.

No that wont work - because people are just as able to breed puppies in rotten conditions whether its one puppy or 100 and the definition of a puppy farmer is NOT BASED ON HOW MANY THEY BREED. Even if it were its against fair trading laws to put restrictions on people's ability to trade. whats their definition of a farmer then if its not on how many they breed? thats a bit crappy no wonder ANKC breeders are being put in the same paddock!! that sux.. one farm produced blinkin 2000 pups a year they proudly tell everyone and they house 300 breeding dogs, is it how many they house then?

and that was the article i found against ANKC breeders, where are they getting their facts from they are going off half cocked.....shows aren't just for appearance.....you can easily trace heritage in a pedigree dog have they talked to anyone in the ANKC to see if there are herediatary programs in place for breeds? no just go on pedigree dogs exposed from the UK. we are not the UK. grrrrrrrr that doco featured a few people with breeds that are popular and when a breed is popular it is over bred and not the best examples are bred and genetic problems are not addressed half the time. doesn't mean all ANKC breeders are like this and breed standards are designed for individual interpretation. doesn't matter what standards are in place it will always be interpreted individually. so what do they suggest take away all breed standards and we can all just have DD's to have a genetic diversity? lol we have enough genetic diversity in this country as it is within breeds. (!!) geeeeeeshhhh this is the problem people are in power that have no idea but still spout off though and end up shaping and making the laws. sorry just venting!!!!!!!!!!!

agree. the power has been buck passed to councils who aren't doing their jobs, when they get complaints they mock the public and give lectures (like i got!) about why these poor little dogs should be bred to buggery in large farms like cattle. I think the idea that steve raised a while ago in another thread about microchipping and making breeders put their names and addresses on chip from farms particularly is a good idea that way if they end up in shelters which a good proportion do going by statistics, they are made to be responsible for what they breed instead of palming them off to petshops and never seeing them again, might just curb their operations a little if they have to fund what they breed and don't just get pure profit from the petshop pups and never seeing them again, put their money where their mouth is, afterall they say on their website that they take back the shelter dogs if they end up there, but it would be impossible to monitor that and do it its just PR on their part to make themselves look good as they got asked that question at the open day they had. ETA totally agree mortonplace. it just makes you wonder as i watched that god awful video of the raid, where in the hell do these farmers get the undesexed dogs from, when i saw those pure chis i wondered that, backyarders who should be desexing their animals? really they are flaunting the law, in councils now they have a policy that all pets should be desexed yet people are still breeding their pets and selling to farms to be bred. its left to councils to make sure everyone is following the law from the pet owner to the farmer, but they still aren't doing their jobs right.

double post im sorry

Yes, it is all designed to deter people from breeding dogs. Oscars Law included. We have been branded as lunatics touting conspiracy theories, but we are not. We are thinking people who know that there will be not much other than mutts and generic brown dogs in the future, and probably riddled with inherited diseases that will all be blamed back on to those "terrible dog breeders". Politicians will run with the issue that will sell well on the telly to a believing public. Add plenty of emotion to it and voila, it is a vote winner! They are not interested in the future of good dogs. Well, they might be when they find that they can no longer buy a cocker spaniel, a corgi, or some of the breeds with lesser numbers. Then we dog breeders who still have a couple of specimens of a particular breed can go public, get a high profile person alongside, and raise funds for the endangered species ....... just like the animal libbers are doing right now for their cause. Wonder how much money they collected at the rally ...... Souff I believe Oscars Law was used by animal libbers to try and stop the breeding of ALL dogs. The pet owning public fell for it. With no thought to the fact that they were actually depriving themselves of the very dogs they thought they came to protect. If there are NO breeders of dogs where will YOU get your next dog ?. talking to the organiser of this rally for a long time, no that is not true at all! they target farms and it was about FARMS. registered breeders are not mentioned in all of this. read prisoner for profit website and you will see what im talking about. prisoners for profit That may have been the original intentions but we are all aware it did not end up that way. ok so where is the evidence then, is there something in the background thats going on that most of us are not aware off???? just asking an question??? ETA: do you mean RSPCA turned it into something else, probably stating the obvious, dn't mean to sound dumb.

ok reading some statements about ALV, i have obviously missed something here, where does it say they are against reg breeders? i am not involved in the group but i support what they are trying to do from afar on their website, and that is closing down puppy mills thats what i understand it to be.