toy dog

basically what is said on DOL pedigree dogs versus DD's. try and shorten it though. not make it so long so they will at least read a bit of it. if its too long they tend to skim over. just sticking up for the pedigree dog. in my own words ofcourse from my perspective of 26 years in the dogworld. superior? well if you compare a person who only breeds their cross bred mutts for profit not taking into account health, pedigrees, bloodlines, type or selectively breeding, who owns dog for the love of them not just for the love of the almight $, who is the better? who is in it for the welfare? i just spend my time explaining the difference if i can. i explain why its not good to breed up crosses with no health checks and then pass them off to the consumer who in the long run can get disillusioned with the crosses health problems and grooming requirements of a non-shedding coat that are not explained to them at a petshop rather than going to a breeder who would explain everythin and be concerned for the welfare of that dog for life in some cases, much like we do our family, just explaining what some breeders do and have done for generations. what not right??? ETA: i also explain that having new "tougher" laws to include all of us is not the answer. i really think if the VCA with the help of its members figures out ways to control the puppy farmer within our membership then there is no need for a govt to control our members, VCA could do it somehow.

i agree it is depressing all that we can do really is write letters, i am compiling some addresses for you. if they want to bring in these new laws what can we do, we have to cop it sweet. i am busy compiling a letter to the polies about our side of things, my letters have been noticed by a few councillors so i am hoping that others will notice too. i still don't think anyone is explaining our side of things its all from the pet owning public which is fine but we need to stick up for ourselves too.

thanks steve for your information and answering me on some of my silly questions but if you don't ask you don't find out.

so petshops selling cats and dogs will never be banned? farms will never be closed down? what about the poor puppies? the poor mothers who are forced to give birth season after season never having a rest then when they can no longer produce are either bludgened to death, given the green dream or shot. their whole lives are a misery never knowing love, never being cuddled never knowing the gentle touch or a kind word, their whole life is for what? yes i only have good intentions. intensive farming like this is just so inhumane to animals. and they say it happens to pigs too, in metal cages all their lives being forced to feed too many mouths that are at them 24 hours a day large litters and the mothers are in a small metal cage not able to move while they are feeding babies who are running around the cage. one pig was in a small cage she couldn't move so was biting at the metal bars and had blood all over her face. :p i breed and show dogs because i love dogs, i love all animals and i don't want to see them being treated like this. so what do you do? im sorry i have to go away and have a good cry and get it all out.

and thats what i mean they really have no idea at all do they. no idea about it. when you say you are a breeder, people immediately ask how much money do you make, i answer none at all, the answer is BULLOCKS ofcourse you make money. so then i <sigh> go into all my vet bills and what i pay for shows, yadda yadda yadda by the end of it they understand but try explaining that to a politician that sits in an ivory tower listening to greedy people that breed their dogs for money alone. can i ask someone here,what about those breeders just say they are a DOGSVIC breeder has their purebreed and is complying with regs there and is showing etc. ethical there and all that, then decides to breed up DD's alongside the peds get the extra income, getting all the benefits in the council of DOGSVIC membership, are these people classed as puppy farmers and be dealt under such laws i.e. code of practice? people like this give us all a bad name. isn't it any wonder govt and the rest can't tell the difference. speaking of the code of practice of breeding establishments businesses that i assume puppy farms come under. aren't the govt going to add to that when they say give councils more power, or are they goingto make up new lews totally? my mother has a question i couldn't answer her, i didn't have enough info.. she isn't on the net im sorry not puter savvy at all........ just say you have a permit for 30 years or more and these new laws come in that we've been talking about, do you now have to apply for a planning and environment permit as well as having your normal permit with the council? does that mean that it is up to the council to still police you or will it still mean that if you are dobbed in by a neighbor it gives the RSPCA the right to go over the council and state what they want to happen or close you down or modify you? would you have to reapply for that permit with the planning and environment permit added to the normal council permit? we are discussing this amongst ourselves we'd just like to know.

was it a DD puppy farmer? OMG, they really have no idea do they but they claim they do. really!!! that makes my blood boil to hear that.

Who is 'they'? I don't believe this theory at nay rate, regardless of who 'they' are... unless 'they' are radical extremists in general. I find it more plausible to believe that when people call for change, they don't think it through and look ahead. They only see their small parametre of what they feel needs changing. The impact of this shortsightedness and blinkered view is that the net is cast far wider than intended. I also feel it is our gross entanglement of legislation, and those that create and manage it, and laws that compunds the issues. i think it means "they" the animal groups calling for bans. or they could mean RSPCA, the stuff they have on their website about pedigree dogs i could very well believe it too. its just total crap i still think that half of what RSPCA are saying in their website is from no one ever stepping into the dogworld adn taking a look around and see what goes on. it sounds like RSPCA are quoting direct from PDE. Sorry I should have made it more clear They can appear as who ever you wish RSPCA PETA Animal Liberation As far as I am concerned any person or body that opposes the breeding of Pure Bred Dogs. ( Maybe in todays climate that should read any person that breeds a dog weather it be pure or not). and if RSPCA keep putting that crap up on their website about pedigree breeds and how bad breed standards are, then in the same breath saying go to a reg breeder :p then there are gona be alot more peple opposed to pedigree dogs too ifthey have their way.

Who is 'they'? I don't beleive this theory at nay rate, regardless of who 'they' are... unless 'they' are radical extremists in general. I find it more plausible to believe that when people call for change, they don't think it through and look ahead. They only see their small parametre of what they feel needs changing. The impact of this shortsightedness and blinkered view is that the net is cast far wider than intended. I also feel it is our gross entanglement of legislation, and those that create and manage it, and laws that compunds the issues. In the main I agree with you and I think mostly thats what is going on. However, SOME such as animal lib and PETA most definitely have an agenda to stop all breeding. Its a bit silly to assume that some "theys" are not pulling some strings in this lot. Just as some also have an agenda to stop people from breeding first cross designer dogs so too do some have a desire to stop purebred breeders from breeding. Problem among breeders is that everyone thinks they are the best and they are special and that anything that may happen to them [ anyone other than them] is a good thing and because they are so much more ethical and fan bloody tastic they can afford to demand higher permit prices, laws regarding genetic conditions blah blah blah and anything else they can think of to stick it to them and shut them down. In fact they end up just sticking it to themselves. :p DPI suggested that is what the council can do, the councils can ask for any price for permits apparently. but i was then thinking when the guy was saying that, where does that leave the little pepole like us that just want to have a little team of showdogs? do we then pay the same high prices for permits he was mentioning 30,000 and above. that would sure spell the end of reg breeders thats for sure. but from my understanding he was referring to the registered puppy farm business that keeps 700 plus dogs and above and these large hectare properties of rural farming land. i asked the question to, in that council of the 14 farms that it was established were in that shire, how many are registered breeders, are they being included in this count? no was the answer that does not include reg breeders.

Who is 'they'? I don't beleive this theory at nay rate, regardless of who 'they' are... unless 'they' are radical extremists in general. I find it more plausible to believe that when people call for change, they don't think it through and look ahead. They only see their small parametre of what they feel needs changing. The impact of this shortsightedness and blinkered view is that the net is cast far wider than intended. I also feel it is our gross entanglement of legislation, and those that create and manage it, and laws that compunds the issues. i think it means "they" the animal groups calling for bans. or they could mean RSPCA, the stuff they have on their website about pedigree dogs i could very well believe it too. its just total crap i still think that half of what RSPCA are saying in their website is from no one ever stepping into the dogworld adn taking a look around and see what goes on. it sounds like RSPCA are quoting direct from PDE.

so wheres the bit that says we are going to be treated the same as a puppy factory under the same laws, this is the connection im looking for. not bits about puppy farms. :p so are you saying that we shouldn't say anything about this movement to rat out puppy farms because this is directly related to us? or will be down the track, tht is just so crap, where is the justice in this? so we should turn a blind eye to these puppy factories in our backyards. even though i've been told numerous times that reg breeders aren't being targetted are these people lying? who is lying who is tellng the truth. meanwhile these factories with these arseholes (sorry but thats what they are are allowed to continue) continue to churn out these pups. i will never turn a blind eye to that. the wellington shire are getting flooded with letters because of oscarslaw people and i can't say i feel sorry for them, as a response they have taken a few to court over the years. each time they have been thrown out of court in the farmers favour. because they say of inadequate laws. Toy dogs part of the problem is that I don't think anyone is lying. I think everyone does really think they are telling the truth.Oscars law really isn't targeting ethical responsible breeders but over and over again you are told that just because that isn't the intention that doesn't mean that it wont happen and how much more do you need to see there is a real danger for us in all of this? The answer doesn't lie in pushing for new laws but its too late in Victoria because there is already a promise of new harder laws and what ever the consequences for registered breeders those who have backed a call for harder tougher laws will have to account for the role they played in their own demise. Time will tell but there is nothing in history or in any other country of the world which would make a case to say introducing more laws is going to solve the problem. you are preaching to the already converted! i know that we don't need any more stupid laws to the point where we will be saying we aren't a free country anymore, i agree with this 100% so then how does banning petshop sales of cats and dogs relate to us then? a pure ban i am talking about not with anything tacked on. you are right you said so far no one is moving to do this because you know why, there is great pressure from a multi-million dollar industry not to ban it , money speaks louder than common sense and thats all they will listen to, money talks. if this happened at least it would curb some farms who rely on petshop sales to survive, it was estimated that 95% of their income comes from petshop sales. i have also heard this on the grape vine many times over the years as i say i grew up in the area with the most farms. because of all this bad publicity lately sales have actually plumuted in puppy farms.

The whole point to this thread was to show you that you are already treated at law the same way a puppy framer is the minute you own more than 2 dogs because of environment and planning laws. they are already there - they already treat you the same way they just haven't enforced it so for decades you have been able to do what you do without needing all the same things they do to breed a dog. You have had it easy yet you call for laws to make it easier to find out you are not doing the right thing and be policed by those who see you as just as much of a problem as a commercial breeder. You are a dog breeder just as they are and that means you come under the same laws whether you think you should or not. Your shire says that happens when you own more than 2 dogs. i spose when you really look at it if you say you are ethical and responsible how does anyone know you are? what determines this, anyone can say this adn make it seem true huh. so because a registered breeder has dogs and is not motivated by profit like a farm is, they are not going to survive and the only ones that can comply to all this are the large farms there for money - tehy have the money to comply, so they are going to be the winners in all this in the end. what my mum is worried about is, soon you will not see a single pedigree dog all you will see are these i am sorry MONGREL dogs. talked to a guy in DPI we had a long conversation about these puppy farms i think DPI HQ is in Wellington shire - pretty sure it is. they told me they could write laws to give councils more power to charge what they want to these farms for their permit, like say 30,000 and upwards, but from what i heard that wouldn't even make a dent in their profit margins anyway they will still be laughing all the way to the bank. he said they could make them comply with so much stuff (large breeding establishments) that a few will give up like animal welfare stuff about coats and genetics and what i talked to him about, he goes any solutions and i said i got plenty, he goes well write to us and we'll take a look, i dont' know if he was genuine or not. but i certainly will when i get a chance. also to the premier and opposition about the genetic side and a different approach to welfare issues that the ALV and oscarlaw people are saying i have my own take. i got told that DPI has alot of power over councils as to how they apply the law and how councils respond and give alot of direction to councils in Victoria. he said that animal groups have had alot of input into the welfare issues in the new laws of how we should keep these breeding establishments. i said we do'nt need them to keep them nice and make sure thousands of dogs are kept nice we have enough dogs in shelters looking for homes, all that we need is for these large farms to go away and stop overbreeding thousands of pups. he goes soem of them get exported some of them go to petshops i said yeah. he said i only get a dog from a breeder, i thought here we go, i was ready for him to say a puppy farm from this region, what sort of breeder i asked, a dogsvic breeder. i was pleasantly surprised. so he is well aware of us also as is all of them but i dont' think they understand the reasons why some reg breeders do have dogs and own and breed them and show them they jsut don't understand that side of it. you are right. what happens if these breeders are allowed to go ahead and people jsut can't get a pedigree dog anymore becaues they've eliminated us all with legislation, what will happen then? will they then go ooops or would they care? there are followers of certain pedigree breeds some people don't want to get a cross. what would happen then i wonder? ithink yeah as mortonplace said, stick together, in one place, tackle all this together thats the best chance we got. i love reading legislation, love writing and i'd love to do something, tell us what we need to do and we will do it. write to government yep will do it. but it needs to come from a whole heap of us, not just one sole person.

i want to know what they are going to do about it , what are they doing exactly? have they done anything at all. i want their answer to this. and why aren't they doing anything. or if they have done something what is it they've done. this is what the members should be asking of them, afterall we pay them to stand up for us and as far as i can see here in this thread they aren't doing it. oscarslaw are calling for a ban on sales on petshops and shut down farms, they keep on saying it i can paste from fb page if you like the oscarslaws fb page. RSPCA are calling for tougher laws and polies are delivering as far as they are concerned. people are saying on their FB pages are you listening guys, we want to shut down farms we don't want any more laws. we want oscarslaw which says banning of sales, shut down farms. they also say starting a real campaign about pet ownership and i got into this further and it said desexing pets. this is what im saying, farms are legal and already conform to all laws so it doesn't affect them. people are asking for these farms to close but instead polies are just putting more laws up, is it what the public want? no. is it what anyone wants no, its what RSPCA want and what by the looks of it they are going to get despite many calling for something completely different. Perhaps a better question is what should we be doing about it. Not pushing for new laws which will expose the fact that most registered breeders are in breach of local laws ? they are calling for tougher laws and any new laws affect any one who breeds not just one tiny group and thats what we have been trying to say. I sat at the roundatable conference and Im promising you they are after anyone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. What is sub standard conditions? Conditions which don't comply with local environment laws and mandatory codes. That's you. Oscar law may say only commercial breeders but this is Australia and you cant make laws for them and not us. Ive no doubt that most in Oscars law have only good intentions in shutting down puppy farmers and so do you but you may think that a puppy farmer is someone who breeds dogs commercially - its not but even if that was the definition they used you cant make laws for one group without making the same laws for the other. Animal liberation backs Oscars law and that is screaming headlines and a clear and desperate warning for anyone who loves owning an animal to get the hell away from it. sounds like you are talking about PETA

so wheres the bit that says we are going to be treated the same as a puppy factory under the same laws, this is the connection im looking for. not bits about puppy farms. :p so are you saying that we shouldn't say anything about this movement to rat out puppy farms because this is directly related to us? or will be down the track, tht is just so crap, where is the justice in this? so we should turn a blind eye to these puppy factories in our backyards. even though i've been told numerous times that reg breeders aren't being targetted are these people lying? who is lying who is tellng the truth. meanwhile these factories with these arseholes (sorry but thats what they are are allowed to continue) continue to churn out these pups. i will never turn a blind eye to that. the wellington shire are getting flooded with letters because of oscarslaw people and i can't say i feel sorry for them, as a response they have taken a few to court over the years. each time they have been thrown out of court in the farmers favour. because they say of inadequate laws.

when you find the connection let me know, im going around in circles here. O.K, Go here - animal liberation website. Thats a start. http://www.alv.org.au/issues/puppyfactories.php 21 September 2010 7PM Project on Channel 10 ran a great story tonight about puppy factories featuring an interview with Debra Tranter (oscarslaw.org) and showing footage from ALV's recent investigation at a Victorian puppy factory. yeah? and that is talking about puppy factories?

i want to know what they are going to do about it , what are they doing exactly? have they done anything at all. i want their answer to this. and why aren't they doing anything. or if they have done something what is it they've done. this is what the members should be asking of them, afterall we pay them to stand up for us and as far as i can see here in this thread they aren't doing it. oscarslaw are calling for a ban on sales on petshops and shut down farms, they keep on saying it i can paste from fb page if you like the oscarslaws fb page. RSPCA are calling for tougher laws and polies are delivering as far as they are concerned. people are saying on their FB pages are you listening guys, we want to shut down farms we don't want any more laws. we want oscarslaw which says banning of sales, shut down farms. they also say starting a real campaign about pet ownership and i got into this further and it said desexing pets. this is what im saying, farms are legal and already conform to all laws so it doesn't affect them. people are asking for these farms to close but instead polies are just putting more laws up, is it what the public want? no. is it what anyone wants no, its what RSPCA want and what by the looks of it they are going to get despite many calling for something completely different.

when you find the connection let me know, im going around in circles here.

from reading on facebook, they (oscarslaw ppl) are going to courtcases and objecting based on environment and planning laws, they can't say anything under animal welfare laws they are dealing with the same laws we will be dealing with. this is now thats going on. who made the laws? this is VCAT hearings im referring to.

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA? im sorry but to me thats not clear and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!! The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not. All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority. We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there? To be more clear Vicdogs has no say over environment and planning and nor do we. Vicdogs have already said they support new laws. We do not. i would really like to get DOGSVIC clear standing on all of this. i will attempt to email them and ask the question i am interested to know their stance and what their answer will be. i am going to raise a few points. i just want to understand all this completely. thats all. it would be good if someone could clarify from DOGSVIC on here though. so far i still hear crickets chirping.

steve, i will msg you privately as i feel this is personal, i need to talk to you to give you an insight into my family's story if you don't mind. i am going to copy your post and send to my parents they really need to see this. thank you

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA? im sorry but to me thats not clear and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!!

supporting a cause to shut puppy farms down and stop sales in shops is not really in my opinion "running with animal libs" just because you are supporting a cause to shut down something and banning something doesn't mean you are also supporting RSPCA and what they want to bring in. i know RSPCA are anti-reg breeders i see it on their site about us, slandering us no suprises there. thats why there are plenty on the face book saying to both parties, we don't need any more laws to go after Rogue breeders. how are they going to find rogue breeders and i got my answer on your post. they are only listening to RSPCA and what they want to do not listening to anyone else, i understand all that. why can't they just ban big puppy farms with battery dogs close them down OR as a start ban sales in petshops thats all they need to do, not add on to existing laws make new ones, MAKE IT BLOODY COMPLICATED or whatever RSPCA want to do. thats what many are calling for, nope they've answered by saying we will introduce MORE LAWS tougher laws that the farms can manipulate their own way find the loopholes still be in business a they are doing now, breed up mixes flood the country with them. i also read somewhere the premier and opposition want to give more power to councils to shut these places down, i assume "places" mean puppy farms. but by what you are saying it means ALL BREEDERS giving them more power to regulate even the registered breeders and make it harder for them. i do get all that and i do agree thats what they are doing. thats why we have our state controlling bodies we pay them money to stick up for us and you are telling me they are not? why not, why are they sitting there why isn't the members holding them accountable? making them work for their money they get off us. RSPCA are going after backyard breeders but as asal says, we are all backyard breeders, define backyard breeders. and this is their answer get us all with new laws. i don't agree with any of that especially calling for RSPCA to have more power!!! so what happens to a breeder thats had a permit in that shire for a long time?? they have to re-apply is that what you are telling me for environmental planning? under these new laws the premier and the oppposition said they want to bring in. they are saying identical stuff copying each other !!! but new laws tighten up old ones, is not going to get to the root of the problem that everyone is complaining about, puppy farms, shelters filling up, petshop sales. so what about this that the RSPCA is proposing? you aren't required to be registered as an animal business so does that mean that you are not required to apply for planning and environmental permits? im just asking this question. is there anything else out there that is being proposed that voids this one being proposed? person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice. my final question, is MDBA liaising with government have they a voice? i got told DOGSVIC has a voice but so far i don't know what their answer is to any of this. i assume that they are also liaising with the govt and making sure they exempt DOGSVIC members like above statement. if the answer is, yes we have a voice MDBA are liaising with govt....then......where do i sign up, i am in. and yes, i am like mortonplace i will want to be included on anything that requires us all to work together to make sure we are all protected from this. agree 100%

it doesn't from what i understand that was the RSPCA doing their thing again, as was tail docking. they managed to get that through so now they are trying to get other issues through. they have too much say when they should stick to what they know best and that is rehoming dogs at their shelters, they aren't the authority on all dog issues breeding genetics but it looks like they have quite a say on this based on PDE and their peple not actually going out in the dogworld and seeing for themselves that that DOCO is not the complete picture but yet they are still quoting direct from the doco to the normal citizen in Oz against pedigree dogs. why isn't the ANKC or our controlling body demanding they take this crap off their website? maybe the members should be demanding instead of just sitting their copping it. i dont' know. but its terribly damaging i took great offense of it and emailed them and i got more unfounded crap from RSPCA in their emails from a person that probably hasn't set foot in any reg breeders circles or dogs shows but still they seem to think they know everything about pedigree dogs. grrrrrrrr i need to get out of this thread too i am getting upset again. this is what im doing.

and yes i know. we all have backyard i could be called a backyard breeder too. but that is the term that has stuck. what else do you call them thats not long winded but some people go, whats that anyway.

in victoria here it was spoken about a couple of years ago that we need a media person to handle media stuff, but lots of members wanted a celeb to rival the gardener, i beleive they did get someone but it really needs to be someone well known that people can follow. see, oscarlaw people have chris brown now Bondi Vet he is a hit with SOME ladies not all, but he is just pushing for puppy farms, we really need someone well known like that. bondi vet i asked at my breed club about him what did they think and some ladies said...."oh he is an idiot".....i think they saw his blunder about promoting a petshop husky at PP. on burkes backyard there use to be a vet on there then he left that was pushing pedigrees as soon as he left the gardener went to town. i forget his name but he was very well known. thats where all this madness began i believe.

im typing from a padded cell asal. not really....but it sure does feel like it sometimes.