toy dog

Hi, i hope he isn't scarred either, i will find out in due course but don't really plan on going back to any off leash park in the future. it just brings home to me the fact that not all dog owners are responsible and i really think it is not fair to my dog to expect him to be able to cop a bashing from an out of control dog by its owners. they actually ran away, as i looked back 5 minutes later and they were no where to be seen even in the distance. so must of hot stepped themselves and doggy out of park pretty quick. everyone is talking about this technique of lifting the back legs and i'd really like to see a video perhaps on how it is done. anyone know of where i could view one? had a bit of a search on youtube but it didn't bring anything up about this. didn't google it though maybe i should try that as well. TOY DOG

how about st kilda pier? been there a few times Jake loves the water, its apparently a dog beach. haven't had any problems here so far but we haven't been since summer. bit chilly at the moment though for the beach?? brrrrrrr it was 2 degrees this morning at 5am! and it is only 12 degrees today at this time. another good place we found although my brother likes places where there are plenty of dog socialisation, I don't after this unfortunate situation anymore now, is Ballam Park in Frankston. Huge huge park where you go for a long walk with the dog. not many dogs here late in the afternoon. not as many as Brighton anyway.

sorry ETA: think i'll opt for exercising my dog at KCC park in the big paddock much much safer. although i was exercising my boy there a few weeks ago and it is clearly marked "if yard being used do not enter" so what does this lady do, goes in there and her dog playfully comes up to Jake, Jake did nothing but sniff her. now that could have gone pear shaped if my dog didn't want other dogs coming up to him thats why they have "if in use do not enter" i don't think the lady could read. a bit peeved off. i felt sorry for the dog, her poor dog could get bitten by the owners irresponsible attitude. she was lucky it was just Jake.

Hi everyone, Jake my dog is okay, he was okay 10 minutes after the incidence however my hand is not holding up very well i have a massive bruise that hurts with 2 puncture wounds. good idea to take photos and contact the local council for that area, it is not my local council but is my brothers local council. i agree if that dog gets a hold of a much smaller dog or a child holding a dog and the child intervenes like i tried to do it could spell disaster. i think you may have gotten confused with my avatar which has small dogs in it as i am a breeder and exhibitor of chihuahuas since 1985 I am no stranger to breeds of dogs having sat on committees of all breeds clubs for the last 25 years and our family started with training dogs at obedience clubs as well as training greyhounds (grandfather and father). so we have a bit of history. i was just interested to see others point of view at what this older lady said in the park. me, personally i wouldn't like to try the grabbing a strange dogs legs eventhough many tell me on here you are at a clear advantage, just my thoughts. no i agree its not the dogs fault its the owners responbility. i thought at the time maybe it was their first time letting their dog roam free in a dog park as they really looked shocked at what happened, my brother goes there once every weekend and has never seen them there so maybe they have learnt their lesson, we hope! i doubt it too but we can hope. after this it has really tainted my view on going to dog parks as someone said, not every owner is responsible unfortunately it hasn't fazed Jake though he is still the happy go lucky boy so thats okay. what i meant was i am still not sure the dog may have had some pitt in her.him as well as maybe staff not sure of the sex either, too busy trying to get my dog away and getting bitten in the process. I just think that BYB's mainly cross these sorts of breeds without knowing the full history of them and then sell them to people that don't properly manage them. dangerous combination JMHO and no it hasn't made my opinion negative of those breeds at all, i know of a chihuahua lady that houses a pittbull with her little ones as well as knowing a now judge of staffies and hanging out with her dogs who were like babies, they were absolutely gorgeous dogs. so no i don't blame the dog more the owner. it was also very timid and you are right, not suited to a dog park at all. cheers TOY DOG

i know its been many months did you find a show lead, just wanted to add that i don't believe that even show leads are safe as i've witnessed over the years little dogs twisting out of these. the reason why they do is because most show leads have just a rubber stop to keep the dog in. you can buy leads that are called martingale leads they keep the dog inplace by two metal rings they are the safest but a small puppy they are not always good. the best to get a small puppy or dog is what i suggested from Kmart or Big W a collar that is mesh that allows you to put the little tongue thru any part of the collar. so you can make it any size even if your dog is very tiny. usually about 7 or 8 dollars. not much for peace of mind. TOY DOG

just after people's thoughts on a situation that happened over the weekend on saturday at a local dog park at Brighton in Victoria. I was walking my Kelpie cross GSP X (chocolate brown smooth coat) about the size of a lab with my brothers 2 golden retrievers and we were minding our own business and meeting and greeting dogs of all sizes and shapes with no hassles. in the past we have found most dogs here are pretty friendly and generally most owners are in control of their dogs except for this one young dog that was a big smaller than my dog who looked like a staffordshire bull terrier cross that was a bit timid and tried to hump my dog. ofcourse my dog Jake, didn't like it so turned around to warn the dog to get off him. but not agressively just moving out the way and growling usually enough for the offending dog to move on. not this one, he/she turned around and starts grabbing hold of my dog and wouldn't let go so my dog goes into defense mode and this littlier dog gets my dog down on his back!!! i tried to grab my dog and move him off and away but this dog then bit me accidentally and i have now got a huge bruise on my hand and puncture marks also on my foot don't know how they got there. the owner of the other dog just grabbed his dog and pulled it off. My dog was limping when we came away but then wasn't. the owner didn't even say sorry. i said as we moved away that dog is agressive!!!! they just looked at me clearly shocked. my brother who regularly goes to that park hasn't seen this couple before so i think they are new. definately a cross bred with fighting breeds in it. i always do this afterwards but i was thinking that dog should be muzzled or not taken to a free roaming dog park at all. a lady came up and messaged Jakes legs for me which helped him a little bit i think, a very nice lady who said that once they get a taste of blood they keep on doing that to other dogs and will fight to the death. pretty scary. i was thinking luckily i don't believe in walking my little chihuahuas in dog parks only take them to dog shows where the dogs are more controlled by more responsible owners, that dog would have killed my little dogs. this lady said to get the other dog to stop you lift the other dogs legs in the air, but i wouldnt' like to do that to a strange dog i'd get bittne for sure. I thought about hitting the other dog to get off my dog to deter it a bit, i had a canvas travelling bowl in my hand, but my brother reckons don't start hitting others dogs as the dog could turn on me also the owners but if they are attacking and nasty i am inclined to think stuff protocol, as i say the owners didn't even apologise for their dogs bad behaviour.

sometimes you can only tell what lies back in the pedigree when you mate 2 dogs together, sometimes it might "activate" genetic problems or they might be really good together giving you nice sound pups. goodluck to you anyway.

It's a bit of a stretch to equate this scenario to what is proposed by the OP - ie getting a slightly younger GR as company for her existing one. She's not talking large-scale picnics with complacent GR owners. A number of people with two GRs have posted on this thread saying that their dogs get on famously and have suggested the OP go ahead.. I really don't understand why you are so opposed to the idea, Poodlefan. There is surely an element of risk with two of any dog not just two GRs. The scenario is people advising that two bitches will get on like a house on fire because that's what GRs do. I can certainly think of a few examples where assumptions about breed result in shock for owners and gave the best one I had for this breed. I'm interested in lowering the risk of conflict as far as possible with judicious selection of the next dog. Basic rule for lack of conflict between dogs is don't have two dogs similar in age, size and gender. The OP will match size and age won't be that different. Other than gender, what else is there to change? Why would you advocate an exception to the rule for Golden Retrievers if you wouldn't for other breeds? I woudn't do it for Whippets either and they're another breed with a reputation for lack of conflict between dogs. People are saying that the temperament of the breed is brilliant and that two dogs of the same sex won't have issues. That's a generalisation that I'm arguing isn't always borne out in fact. It seems at least one GR person agrees with me. They don't come out of a cookie cutter and temperament is variable. At least one poster in this thread saying that two dogs will get on fine knows damn well from personal experience that two GR's of the same sex aren't always a recipe for success but has chosen remain silent on the issue. I know they know otherwise. So be it. The risk of conflict between dogs of this breed is low. I acknowledge that they're great dogs but they're not infallible. I dont' see the need to pretend otherwise. 99/100 pairings will be fine but call me risk averse The OP had assumed a bitch would be a better bet to go with her existing bitch. I choose to advise otherwise. Oh and thanks for the correct spelling of complacent - I KNEW it looked wrong i totally agree with you poodlefan, i think people should always judge each dog individually and what possibly can happen rather than judging a whole breed and what is expected to happen. not every dog no matter what breed will get on famously, with Pru my brother did have another dog that was of another breed saved from the RSPCA that went to a great home, his name was Patch and he was a dominant bugger and used to annoy pru and try to hump her all the time. he was very protective of james and use to growl at visitors who wanted to sit on the couch. So i said to him don't allow him to do this, then he was growling at james in the end but he soon put a stop to that. it was his couch NOT. then i brought my dog over one day (GSP cross rescue boy) and they were playing okay until Patch decided he'd had enough and went to growl at Jake then Jake growled back and it got nastier and nastier until the point where we had to seperate them to avoid any damage to both dogs. after that we didn't let them socialise with each other as they couldn't be left together. the fact that they'd been 2 adult males around about the same age and both had recently been desexed so i got told that Jake was going to be used for breeding and we didn't know whether patch was in the same boat, so being undesexed and been used for breeding makes them more dominant especially around females. We thought that Patch was defending Pru as Pru was "his" female. so those 2 males together didn't get on. so it can happen just like people, some dogs just dont' get on while others do. but just because the breed is known for their docile natures doesn't mean each and every GR are this way though, it also depends on how they are brought up, what training they've had and a whole range of issues combined. i mean you could have a badly bred GR from a backyarder that has been poorly trained and then you have a recipe for disaster. i think poodlefan is just trying to say err on the side of caution which is justified here really. I advised my brother the same way. it took 2 go's to get the right dog combo.

my brother has 2 goldens, a boy and a girl. he got the girl pru first, these are his first dogs he's owned on his own from a family of breeders/exhibitors in a number of breeds. Pru was about 4 when he got her, so i advised him to get a younger dog possibly a male. So he got a rescue GR named "Sam". Sam was around 18 months old and very much still a puppy. Pru, we got her from a person on here on the DOL forums who entrusted her to us. She had always been the only dog in the household there and the owner had to give her up because her grandchild was allergic to dogs from memory. I think James has had Pru for about 3 years now. he said to me do you think i should get another female and i said make sure she is younger to minimize the risk of them not getting on and even better if you could get a male. Some bitches do get on it some very much don't. depends on the individual dog whether they are dominant or submissive in nature really. with our dogs we sell, we always stipulate the dog is on trial to also help with situations where the dogs might not go together which can happen. So perhaps make sure you get a breeder that is with you every step of the way and helps and is willing to take back if it doesn't work out after the trial period. we usually say about 2-3 weeks trial. by then you should know if your dogs are going to get on or not. GOOD LUCK goldens are a very beautiful breed and since my brother james has gotten his 2 dogs i am very much inlove with the breed cheers toydogs ETA: picture of Pru, 1st pic, 2nd pic is pru and sam watching their fav show "its me or the dog" these dogs are absolutely idolised and spoilt rotten lol

well thats all you can do really isnt it, but kuddos to you to offer that! i bet the owners would be happy with that. i just reduce the price while i note others do not, each to their own, but like you i'd rather be honest in my dealings. i wonder sometimes do those other breeders that obviously sell without saying a thing, worry about being dragged to court, maybe they say they didn't know. which is bad in itself because as breeders we are supposed to be testing for any known conditions and doing our best to keep them out or at least reduce them. yes i came across the same answer which is a shame because it would help us breeders tremendously if we could have something else a bit more accurate with this condition rather than just relying on vets who all have a different opinion and they are varied as much as the breeders opinions too. its my way of thinking it adds alot of confusion and the breeder often has to search for the information themselves and learn to deal with all this themselves i still think that in some breeds that it affects and is common, we would all benefit having a scheme that joins up with the ANKC and breed clubs to try to reduce the occurances and offers info for sharing similar to what the german shepherds have with HD. Even go so far as to put the results in a register or even on pedigrees. cheers TOYDOG

after researching this topic for a few years now and asking alot of breeders input and writing results etc I had a 11 month old LC chihuahua boy who was diagnosed with a half grading so exercised him and also fed him liquid calcium with glucosomine, took him back a few months later and he was then clear. thought we were over the hurdle then at 18 months was diagnosed with grade 3. my vet has been doing this for a very long time and is considered very thorough and also writes for the VICDOG magazine in victoria here. so we confer quite often about this disease. our belief is that under 12 months of age dogs bones are very soft and just developing so to test could put them out, at that age it is very hard to tell grading and is null and void really. we wait until they are over 12 months old to test as the bones have matured by then. it is thought that exercise, combined with diet can play a major role in your dogs patellas. incidentally, that grade 3 dog i mentioned both parents were clear of PL also grandparents and great grandparents on the bitches side my breeding. the sire, breeder has the same beliefs as us and does not breed with infected dogs. but.....and a big but too......lol........there are other bloodlines and dogs we know nothing about and for several reasons cannot check either the dogs are dead or been sold as pets etc. so no way of checking. so we don't know which dog in the bloodline has PL or which ones are sound. even if you do use dogs clear of PL and go through the whole pedigree its very recessive which means at some point the disease is going to skip generations and come out in a pup here and there. the only solution i can offer is when you buy a dog, try and view as many of the direct relatives as you can i.e. mother, grand mother and grand father and what they produced to give you an idea. also what attitude the breeder has to patella luxation e.g. do they run on dogs with patella luxation and breed with it or do they desex and sell. we do accept that breeding with dogs affected then cements that condition into the pedigree so therefore any future progeny are in danger of producing it or being affected by it. and......there are also carriers, meaning, the dogs themselves will appear sound but then they are mated together to produce this condition in the pups quite strongly and most of the litter are affected by it. if you get one in a litter or one every so often you are not doing too badly and are like the rest of us plugging along trying to deal with this annoying disease grade 1 is livable for both dog and owner and doesn't require surgery so most owners we have come across are fine about it as they understand it is unfortunately a common ailment for our breed and other breeds. i published one of my articles in the club magazine and got positive feedback from it, new breeders refer to it all the time. was going to publish in the VICDOG magazine at some stage when i get my butt into gear, as DOGSVIC said they'd be happy to publish my patella article. SORRY ETA: the boy with grade 3 in one leg, other leg was sound and he was a beautiful example of a chihuahua too which broke my heart to let him go he was the first dog with patella we had produced in about 10 years. so checking pedigrees as much as you can, breeding 0 to 0 can reduce the severity of this disease too as we are living proof of this. so this boy with grade 3 in one leg was desexed but got as many views as possible on what breeders thought about this and one said that they admire our honesty as most would have bred him anyway and continued to show him. others told me they'd still breed with him which i think is wrong if we are ever going to reduce the incidence of this disease and.or eliminate its up to breeders to be honest about their own stock and if not up to par DESEX and move on. not breed this into pedigrees for future breeders to stumble across much like what you are doing now you poor thing ;) i can sympathise with you though. been there done that several times over. i know of alot of others that are in the same boat. hope this helps toydogs

Gumtree confuses me also...I ended up finding 'spoodles' for sale saying they are a registered breeder with mother from championship lines???? They are - registered with AAPDB and both parents have purebred papers. That AAPDB is going to confuse the crap out of the public. i can see it now. registered breeder my

can i add to this discussion, i know it might be too late, just recently put someone in the office here off breeding their male dog and they had a big push from a puppy farmer telling them they could make thousands of dollars. but i'd be telling your SIL that no.1. does she realise that if the dog is housed some of the time inside that mating the dog can make them very frustrated, frustrated enough to lift their legs anywhere in the house marking their territory? having males over the years, it happens more frequently after they've been mated and allowed to go to stud. no. 2. in order for people of the registered dog world to be interested in your dog, you are going to have to advertise to the registered dog world. the only way you can do this is to show your dog, but even showing your dog doesnt' guarantee that people will want to use him - he has to win and win big and to do that he has to be a great example of the breed and stand out as there are alot of this breed inthe ring sort of like cavalier king charles spaniels, they really have to be exceptional quality. he has to be exceptional in confirmation, having a sire and dam champions means nothing to the dog in question, he could have taken after the great grandmother with a bad mouth, poor HD scores or be too white, they also have to be the right color too light and that is a fault in this breed as my brother has this breed. he has a rescue boy desexed, and our pru darling who was sourced from DOL here. no. 3. quality does change from pup to adult, as pups they can look pretty and good as some faults only come out when the dog is adult. so he definately needs to be re-evaluated. no.4. yes your SIL needs to be registered with the Canine Council of their state in order to be able to offer him up to registered breeders. otherwise puppy farmers are going to be on her door. the kind that don't care where the dogs go and what if these people can't find homes for their dogs where do the pups end up, there is a certain amount of responsibility when you offer up your dog for stud purposes you are putting little lives out into the world no.5 the other breeders will only be interested in the dogs with the best score for HD if they don't get a satisfactory score then not many would be interested i would think. more emphasis is placed on HD than with PL in toy dogs i know that. apparently one of my brothers dogs was meant to be a show and breeding dog but was deemed not suitable in the HD scores therefore the person who got this dog was not happy. so people only pick the best examples of that breed to produce with obviously. the lady who had a registered dog in the office here and decided that maybe they'd want to stud their dog out, thought in the end how cruel to let the dog go for it when really he is just a pet. i inspired them to get their dog desexed. and now he is. he is a much happier boy than mating bitches and being frustrated 24/7. they also don't eat and can whine all the time and during this period my stud boys aren't too good in the pet department when they drive you nuts in this period. is your SIL prepared for this? its not as easy to get the money you have to promote your dog first. otherwise you will have no one wanting to use your dog also how much you can charge depends on the dog being proven, what quality it is, if it has too many faults as was the case with the lady in the office then other breeder will not want to use your dog. then there is also the fact that some bitches can carry infection that can damage your dogs organs as well. its not as straight forward as offering your dog up for stud and collecting money there is a bit more to it than that. i am hopefully not too late to show your SIL this post.

Ah yes, those amazing emails and phone calls...not to mention, remarks. I was buying dog bones at the butcher and a woman asked me what sort of dogs I had - I told her. She then informed me that pedigree dogs were too expensive and in the next breath that her sister had just paid over $2000 for a labradoodle pup under breeders terms. We really (as pedigree dog lovers) need a concerted effort to re-educate people via media and any other way we can...I'm just not sure how to motivate people to do this or to get the CC to get heavily involved. you can do alot on your own and then i found that people of breed clubs or just others in the pedigree world will just follow your lead. but someone has to start somewhere otherwise as someone else said we are all doomed. we won't survive, yes oodles will take over as there are so many people on the $$$ band wagon and breeding them and there are so many more than purebred dogs and traditional breeds.

just to answer this in my own way. what works for our breed is we don't leave it up to our controlling body, we deal with new people at a breed level. therefore, we do alot of PR for our breed in the public, having a facebook page has opened alot of doors, having a website in Victoria has done the same thing. so we end up pulling alot of people just interested in the breed into our club on members compettition days. we teach people how to show their dogs at these days, so any member of the public that owns a chi and is a pet can learn how to show it. from there these people get interested in showing dogs and the breed grows. back about 10 years ago we were struggling for numbers the numbers really dropped off there'd be at a major speciality show about 50 dogs showing, but since then the number of new people has steadily grown over the years, now at a major championship show of our breed there is over 150 dogs so we have grown quite a lot Positive PR of your breed really does wonders.

hmmm my angle on it all is, was at Caulfield racecourse pet expo on the weekend and there was but only a handful of people showing their dogs. these shows (2 open shows per day on sat and sun) are a chance to promote your breed to the public. we had scores of people coming up asking questions, i was the only rep of my breed which was sad. so i sat with another toy breeder of another breed. she did alot of positive PR for her breed. on facebook, i often get into puppy farms pages and have made alot of friends in the public who want to know the difference between an oodle and a purebred and what the benefits are, some people just don't know because we are at a minority, there definately isn't enough pedigree breeders out there blowing our own trumpet. as a result these oodle breeders are getting the stage and winning. thats the way i see it. my own breed club in Victoria here does alot of PR because for years i've used this medium to promote our breed as i was the first in australia as a breeder to get online so i talked up a storm of our dogs overseas. now we have alot of people continuing this in a postive manner to the public, im one of the breeders that choose to have an open email address for the public to ask questions of me. sometimes having an open dialogue with the public has its disadvantages i've been threatened a few times by some nuts, but overall i have to say it is a very positive thing and i not only promote my own breed but all breeds as much as i can. if alot more of us could do this it would go a long way of stamping out these ooodle breeders and the demand for these dogs as quite often the public don't know anything about a well bred balanced pet and the way to go about obtaining one - how to screen breeders and most STILL don't know the difference between a puppy farmer and an ethical breeder. They often ask these types of questions to the organisers of say, STOP PUPPY FARMS GROUP (doesn't exist but just an example) and sadly these organisers know nothing about how to go about buying a pedigree dog so it is left up to pedigree breeders to answer these people but there's not enough of us around. i would really like to see more of us out in the public mingling with the public, on facebook, on websites about pets geting out there painting a positive picture about our dogs and people.

if reputable breeders don't advertise in places like the trading post where can the public get their nice well bred dogs? As long as the breeder vets all people who approach them for a puppy it doesn't matter where they advertise. im not going to get into a debate about this, this is what she is saying back to me its the lady's opinion not completely mine, adding her own little individual bits in which would take all day to correct, not doing that, she has the idea and is learning so thats what matters most, what she is quoting back to me is the bit about it all being irresponsible. there are also other places you can go to get dogs where breeders advertise? like here on DOL, breed clubs, contact the ANKC, word of mouth several options. and if they dont' know where to go to get well bred dogs as you put it, well then they haven't done enough research then. this lady's point was: this guy adveritses every week in the paper to lend his dogs out to stud to any breed, his dog is only 2 years old from further enquiry and he earnt $15000 over the life of the dog so far, so he encourages people to breed their crosses and different breeds to his BB. he is not a registered breeder i already asked that question, registered breeders can still do that though under the table, no law or no one stopping them doing it but my way of thinking it is very unethical. he charges $750 a pop and we worked it out together that he has let people use his dog 20 times or there abouts up until 2 years old so far. I just wonder who the hell are these people that are coming to him, all on the band wagon all making money off their dogs. this is why we have our shelters full. not everyone looks after what they breed, some do but there's not nearly enough breeders that do. i am writing in point form. every breeder thinks different things we aren't all the same in our thoughts.

thanks troppo, yes i totally agree, they now understand the perils us breeders go through and she even said to me (quoting me back with my own quotes now which is good :D ) a reputable breeder doesn't need to advertise in the trading post and its so irresponsible. so she knows about some registered breeders being responsible for what they breed and making sure they don't end up in shelters. I also pushed the shelter issue, i said, thats the reason why we are overpopulated at shelters and why they are full, its because we have puppy farmers like that bloke promoting breeding up of dogs and most don't look after what they breed they certainly wouldn't take back a puppy sold 2-5-7 years later thats for sure. she nodded and understood that. i just wish that when breeders sell a dog over 6 months that they got them desexed so we don't have people running around wondering if they should breed their pet dog or not

Hi, just wanted suggestions to convince a person to desex their dog after being told by a puppy farmer who *pimps* out his males to sire unregistered pups and told these pet people that he makes $15,000 a year doing this. he puts an advert in the trading post. he is not a registered breeder. they are wondering if they are doing themselves a disservice and putting themselves out of $15,000 a year by getting their dog desexed!!! I want to choke the guy that came up and told them that, their male dog they have its a BB, has been sold undesexed because of a minor fault not to standard. i told them that its not as easy as that, and all you'll be attracting is other puppy farmers not interested in breed type and by the time we finish we get breeds not looking like they are supposed to look. i just wonder who are the people who are breeding their BB when we all know that they are an extremely hard breed they have CS's so its very expensive to breed them. you wouldn't do it to make money because by the time you paid the vet fees and put all that work into making sure the mother doesn't roll on the pups and what not (had a friend who bred her registered BB and went through HELL) so its not easy breeding this breed. I've almost managed to convince them to desex, they take their dog to the vet in a few days but its been a long haul explaining to them the difference between a puppy farmer and a genuine breeder not out for $$$$$$$$ and it will be AI mind you. the puppy farmer lets the vet come over and they use a machine apparently to extract the semen and then people come along unregistered and use his dogs!! just need extra reasons why they should desex their dog rather than letting him sire puppies, the dog is under 12 months old so only young.

guys can i just add one thing about cat collars, i usually advise my puppy buyers not to use these because the elastic bit can stretch enough that the little dogs get out of them especially if they are hooked onto a lead it stretches it even more, very dangerous especially if someone is walking near a road. show leads are good, there is a good little collar available at most BIG W or KMART stores, it is a collar that allows you to put the little metal bit that usually goes in made holes, it goes in any part of the collar as it is made of lose weave material hence you can make it any size even to fit a 6 week old puppy if you want. i use these on training all my very tiny babies. they are between $5 to $10 in price last time i bought one which was a few years ago and my mother has the same collar for her babies too. ETA..just thought of what we've done in the past is buy a leather collar the smallest you can find, cut it to size then put in the holes yourself with a sharp knife gentle twisting it into the leather making sure you don't break it all the way usually works a treat too. make sure the collar doesn't go over their ears and is safe too i usually can fit one finger or maybe two unde the collar so its not super tight choking them but tight enough it won't get off them. you do need to be safe when you are walking your little one at all times.

im sorry its like this what i am getting from this thread is: its a waste of time to rally for what you believe in. no one listens anyway. its a waste of time writing in letters to polies and councils. no one listens anyway. that doesn't leave much avenues of action????? what do we do, no one has the answer no one is answering us on this, a couple of people asked what is the next step then? what is the next step Steve? i mean fine we join up to MDBA, and i see alot are already members, so then what do we do after that? all i know is, one person at a time i am educating the best way i know how. and i have written letters and put in what i said i did and i got numerous responses from council. apparently they hadn't bothered to answer anyone else, i think it is because i took the time to write down everything and explain it in detail without being rude or cheeky or nasty. being polite and giving them respect and asking for respect. so i feel in a small way i am helping to change outlooks little by little, i not only do that with writing letters i talk to many members of the public thru my website, through the breed club (assistant sec), through my workplace, they go and tell other people. the rally has done this, it has opened peoples eyes up to puppy farms and petshops. for example, one of my workmates has never owned a dog, wants to get one (british bulldog though) and she was telling another workmate don't go to a petshops because the pups are from farms. i said, where did you learn this? she goes from facebook and oscarslaw. so the word is getting out the public are getting more educated. they aren't falling for petshops slogans now, petshops are really worried so are putting up on their shops, we support oscarslaw our pups are from family breeders. little do they know that people now know exactly what that is, people that have failed to get their dogs desexed making a quick buck sending their pups to the petshops so they are saying this explanation is still not good still bad. so there you have it, the media has the power to educate, i mean VCA has 10,000 plus members wouldnt' it be great if those 10,000 members did something positive just 5 mins a day and helped to spread the word about what we really do for the dog? its in our hands. i mean i might be living on cloud 9 somewhere, maybe its a pipedream these days.....I just wish i could step back in time, to a time that was good there werent so many restricting laws, when the pedigree was more valued, there was no such thing as a DD. there was no such thing as these large battery hen puppy farms. the cross bred dog was just that and cost all of $5. think i'd pick the year 1979 JMHO

nah, i was answering Natsu Chan who was also from Vic. what i meant was that in Victoria most of the farms are in one concentrated area and that is in wellington shire, they come from all over to go there. and i dont' know my stuff from animal lib we were thrashing it out with most of them way before animal lib people were there to publisise it all. i don't doubt for a second that there are more puppy farms elsewhere in other states. i mean NSW and indeed other states might have a larger area than Victoria. one of the farms in that bunch that i was talking about is the largest in Australia. thats the problem with some reg breeders i feel as you said in your original statement, most feel they don't need to advertise the pedigree dog they aren't concerned most of them just look after themselves which is all good and well, meanwhile we are all getting shafted as a group.

This is where all the puppy farms are mostly in Victoria just incase you didn't know. i've written numerous letters myself to the councillors about the benefits of our pedigrees. some have listened some have argued the point about why we still need puppy farms. watch for the 5th councillor down. you get a lecture about why farming of farm livestock is similar to intensive farming of dogs and there is no difference. lol and sorry the 6th one down, he has a habit of making fun of people, bit strange that one. lol 8th one down, he is just a little bit more intelligent than the rest he's been educated a little bit about pedigree dogs that one - so he at least knows. Scott Rosetti c/o 70 Foster St SALE 3850 Mobile: 0427 052 394 [email protected] Cr Peter Cleary, Deputy Mayor c/o 70 Foster St SALE 3850 Phone (H): 5145 5590 Mobile: 0408 317 308 [email protected] Cr Jeff Amos 22 Buckley Street YARRAM 3971 Phone (H): 5182 5853 Mobile: 0429 832 657 [email protected] Cr Gregg Cook P.O Box 124 MAFFRA 3860 Mobile: 0427 052 383 [email protected] Cr Jane Hildebrant 488 Boundary Rd BRIAGOLONG 3860 Mobile: 0427 052 385 [email protected] Cr Malcolm Hole 51 Temple Street HEYFIELD 3858 Phone: (H): 5148 2493 Mobile: 0408 541 746 [email protected] Cr Leo O'Brien 25 Desailly St SALE 3850 Phone: (H): 5144 2958 Mobile: 0427 052 378 [email protected] Cr Darren McCubbin 18 Harpley Court LONGFORD 3851 Phone (H): 5149 7021 Mobile: 0458 006 486 [email protected] Cr Beth Ripper 4 Merrick Street STRATFORD 3862 Phone (H): 5145 6094 Mobile: 0448 031 929 [email protected]

[email protected] 1 Treasury Place East Melbourne VIC 3002 Tel: (03) 9651 5000 Fax: (03) 9651 5054 And the Leader of the Liberal Party Ted Baillieu [email protected] Phone: (03) 9651 8512 Fax: (03) 9651 8426 Office of the Leader of the Opposition, Parliament House, Spring Street, East Melbourne 3002

i was about to ask, do you mean RSPCA? then you added to your post about RSPCA below your question.