toy dog

nope there is enough diversity still out there to not closely breed, i make it my business to have something different to others. I have a very old bloodline that is no longer here though, its about 30 years old.

oh okay, i hope you don't mind, i was curious as to the breed you keep referring to, i took the liberty to view your homepage, very beautiful dogs you have there. i understand what you say above is what your breed is faced with, with respect its not the case for every breed of dog though certainly not in ours anyway. Yes I know, but I am always incredibly biased and self-centered around my breeds The ANKC's Kangal Dog is in dire straits, and I have no idea what kind of future breeding plans other Kangal Dog registered breeders have or how they can even plan??? In any case, the ANKC have shelved Kangal Dog into the too hard basket: will or wont they re amalgamate Anatolian Shepherd with Kangal, are Kangal and Anatolian separate breeds blah blah The reality is because the Kangal are a rare breed, there is no pressure for the ANKC to do anything. And perhaps some Kangal breeders also have their head in the sand and are waiting for neverland from Turkiye which will never come. Fortunately I also breed Anatolian, so ANKC's lack of action with Kangal doesn't ultimately affect me. How many breeders of Kangal dogs are there in Australia? They are very exotic looking i rather like them thats a bit of shame i am sorry to hear this.

DA is short for what? a permit? already have one of those i think in our breed 10 fertile bitches is more than enough to sustain a bloodline. i don't need to breed up more as i believe in giving individual attention to a few and my lifestyle doesn't really support having large numbers. i don't need to do this but there are alot of breeders that do and share their bloodlines, some don't (1 or 2) and refuse to give up total ownership on breeding/show dogs when the co-owner goes to breed they don't allow it with their precious bloodlines. this helps no one in my opinion. Certainly doesn't help the breed really.

oh okay, i hope you don't mind, i was curious as to the breed you keep referring to, i took the liberty to view your homepage, very beautiful dogs you have there. i understand what you say above is what your breed is faced with, with respect its not the case for every breed of dog though certainly not in ours anyway.

no lilli that is not what i am saying at all, you are twisting it. what i am saying is that we have enough wanting homes in shelters and rescues without adding to it by puppies being bred in large puppy farms. It would help the situation we are all facedwith in shelters by the public being encouraged to adopt a dog from there instead of going to a breeder, i always promote rescues and shelters first before reg breeders. We don't need more dogs in society. thats what i am saying. i never said the other statements you added on yourself. i don't really want to get into the symantics of why dogs are surrended and shelters i appreciate the link and i will look at that, the main point i am trying to make is we don't need puppy farms and how society is wising up to this fact which is good in my opinion and a step forward. i did say before if breeders and that includes the public too, took responsiblity then we wouldn't have so many dogs needing homes in shelters. im sorry but i don't want to answer that im not going to say my opinion and then be shot down in flames about it, i believe what i believe through what i have seen over the last 30 years with my family, coming into contact with farmers and talking to backyarders who breed for profit (people at my work) also have in the past worked for shelters and also involved in rescue not majorly but enough to be able to learn. Perhaps we need to open up a whole different subject. i was reading an article by shel who belongs to petrescue, who has written a wonderful peice on factory farmed puppies and i used her article with permission on my website a few times as i think what she wrote was brilliant. She explained why shelters are killing dogs when we could have no kill shelters and they use the excuse of overpopulation to kill even more animals. now they are trying to pass a bill in govt which will make it more difficult for foster and also rescue groups to save animals. I don't know what happened and whether it was passed through. Apparently they tried to get the same law passed a few years ago and it was shelved because of the public outcry so they try again with a similar bill. Not my own personal opinion but interesting reading. what breed are we talking about lilli will you enlighten us?? from your avatar it looks like a rare breed??? there are at least 200 pedigree breeds out there, not all of them are inbred and require to be inbred. The breeds i have dealt with, mainly toy breeds have enough stock out there to not inbreed or even line breed if the breeder so chooses. of course all breeds are in danger of using the most popular stud that wins at all the shows and sometimes the bloodlines can get a bit close. what i've witnessed anyway. In our breed in the late 70's early 80's there were over 1000 registrations in a given year, today that has almost halved. So we don't have a problem. was also reading up about Fiona the dalmation from the US, who is now in crufts dog shows and LUA??? dalmation and how the americans have tried for 40 years to get these dogs recognised as purebreds. UK has recognised them but USA still refuse. she apparently according to the blog i was reading where breeders were explaining the ins and outs, has a pointer in her bloodline 5-7 times, but its going back 12 generations. This had to be done because Dalmations over in USA and also England don't know whether its the same here in this country, were suffering from a condition and all were infected so they had to bring in a dog from another breed to clear it. Some breeders that support the LUA dalmation are claiming that these selectively bred Dalmations are like the real thing and are sometimes better than the real thing. Interesting reading that too. I came across this subject from readingthe other thread on pedigree dogs exposed the sequel and just wondered what she was going on about.

just having a big think about what you've been saying to me and why all the negativity about our controlling bodies and registered breeders? VCA are trying their best and trying to give what the majority of members want to see, its hard to please everyone, how many members have we got, 20,000 in this state? We aren't a dying breed if we have ethical dedicated breeders that are here for the long haul, don't you agree? as i say in my own breed, we really work hard to foster the newies and help them. there's alot of other breed clubs like this in Victoria too we aren't the only ones. As a result there are many new people breeding dedicated to our breed up and coming. the oldies have an input into that. we aren't too worried about if our breed is popular or not, there is always people who want a pedigree dog over a cross breed and we are never worried about competition. what im concerned about is the welfare of those dogs on the farms and how cruel that industry is. I always fight to bring an end to factory farming of a companion animals and i hope i see the day when all this comes to an end. i just read about the "gardener" coming back again and spouting off about puppy farms and petshops and how good they are and how bad registered ANKC breeders in the kennel clubs are. He is up to his old tricks and it looks like he can't be shut up he is going to bag all "kennel club" breeders radio interview i believe this is the person who started all this crap in the first place and the ones that have suffered the most through his promotions has been the dogs themselves not the kennel club members as he puts it. if you paint a negative picture for all to follow pretty soon we are all on a downward sprawl, we need to be more positive and it reflects and has an impact i've been victim to this a few pointed this out, so i refrained and it really has worked for us into the future. The club has gone from strength to strength because of a few dedicated breeders. We are here and we are not going anywhere! media has a way of focussing on the negatives too. but really the public should make their own minds up about the truth, people these days are easily led by media when we all know it should all be taken with a grain of salt. the people who report are not as experienced as the people who has a lifestyle and hobby of dogs.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors. as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well. People buy puppies from mass produced farms and from pet shops because there isnt anywhere else to buy them. We are a dying race and dont go even a quarter of the way of breeding enough puppies to fill the demand.We are controlling and demanding of those who want our puppies. If you want a puppy and dont want to jump through breeder hoops and cant find one anywhere else you take the risk rather than not have a puppy at all. thats really not true, if a person looks they will find plenty of ethical reg breeders on this site for instance! Not ALL registered breeders put impossible restrictions on buyers. i don't put impossible restrictions on pets and i know of alot of other reg breeders who do the same. as i write in my articles on my website that i've had up for the last 14 years, buyers have the right to screen breeders and vice versa to ensure that the pups are going to good homes. some people welcome breeders concerns and prefer it that way. really if they go to a breeder that doesn't ask vital questions to ensure the welfare of the puppy and just sell to anyone they are the breeders that are more than likely to not back up the sale at the end of the day. many a time i've had to help people who have bought pups from breeders that don't care and will not/do not give after sales service. its really buyer beware isn't it.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors. as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well.

uh oh batten the hatches down everyone here we go again. oh god spare me

and im not wearing rose coloured glasses to be able to state a blanket statement like that about ALL reg breeders take back their dogs i have witnesed SOME not willing to take their dogs back and their dogs ending up luckily in rescue. i didn't say that i believe ALL reg breeders take back their dogs?? i said if all reg breeders and other breeders took responsibility for what they bred then society wouldn't be in this predicament. How would rescues come to the conclusion that MOST reg breeders do this? until there is a survey or study on this we are only speculating aren't we. Maybe the dogs are coming from one or two breeders who make it look like there are high numbers being abandoned. the breeders exhibitors that i have come in contact with and that is all breed clubs for over 25 years or so that i've been heavily involved in and with the community as well and several breed clubs thrown in the mix have certainly been good in that respect but there is always that odd person out isn't there that doesn't give a damn.. i know i'd be horified if one of my babies i bred ended up in the shelter i'd quickly bail it out but usually i track all my puppies sold and make sure nothing happens like that. highly unlikely to happen with a farmer just interested in the $ its no benefit to them profit wise to take any dogs back as i got told many times by farmers themselves.

i assure you it isn't "hyperbole" what ever that means, i assume it means emotional crap. we have lived in an area for over 25 years our family dealing with these people i talk off and have had first hand experience with a few and i know what their opinion is. so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people. you mean to say that if a farmer churns out 2000 pups a year and does not actively take back any pups bred that the puppy owner does not want anymore its physically impossible to track that many puppies in homes and make sure they stay in good homes, this somehow doesn't add to the numbers wanting homes in shelters? it is common sense. sure i agree with having a no kill shelter, fostering out animals until homes can be found i don't agree with killing healthy animals. alot more should be no kill and its proven to work. you only have to look at such sites as petrescue and see the dozens of dogs wanting homes to know that we have a big problem. im not going to get into the positives and negatives of a pedigree dog and what a registered breeder is, we all know what we are referring to im sure, how does inbreeding get into it. This thread is about how the public identifies puppy farms and how they feel about them, surely breeding over 2000 pups PER FARM and times that by 30 farms across the region, impacts on numbers trying to find homes. my point is we have enough dogs needing adoption in shelters and rescue without adding to it by breeding up puppies in mills. i made the comment on no one taking responsiblity and i've come to that conclusion through discussion with people who backyard breed and their feelings towardsthe puppies they produce. most have said they would not take any dogs back, the dogs are on their own. if all breeders took responsiblity for what they bred then this would significantly reduce numbers in shelters too. there really wasn't a problem going back 30 years ago i was there i saw what it was like, the good old days where a pedigree was worth more than a mutt, but since these large scale farms have come on the scene and the promotion of the dreaded designer dog, there is now a bigger problem than there ever was adn there are many theories of how to deal with it and what we need to do as a society. what gets my dander up is reg breeders who do the right thing get coupled in with the profit makers and are accused they are contributing the ever growing problem.

when you talk of large scale breeders are you talking about ANKC breeders or a puppy farm where they house designer dogs? i am talking about the later i am not talking about large scale ANKC breeders. i am of the opinion that breeding regularly should be looked at as it is in this state by the controlling body anyway. That might be true what you say and i can't disagree with that, but how many do they let through 20, 30 farms all churning out puppies? as there are this many in an well known area with many under the radar on top of this number. online adverts and other sources not just in the papers are also monitored so all avenues are covered. the one farm i mentioned earlier who got taken to court because they failed to meet the requirements of the law, dogs were not looked after properly there was abuse, still got a permit and is still churning out puppies, so how do we stop farms like this when even the law fails these dogs? once they have a permit to breed there is no stopping them. Councils havent the resources to properly manage them as it is left to them to manage and they have said as much many times. The councils haven't the staff. so who stops them once its all started? the farmers fail to meet requirements and they get rewarded with a permit or renewal of a permit anyway. the point that i originally made was that the public is slowly becoming aware of puppy farms and how the dogs are kept in cages breeding until they can't breed anymore and are discarded. articles like these gives voice to these facts and gives them info on where the public should be going. Printing it whereever we can helps to foil sales. because of the bad publicity one farm received, their sales were down so they changed their name so it does work. its up to the public really isn't it. the public through education have the power to stop all this mass breeding and this was our original point, slowly but surely the public are becoming much wiser than they were before about puppy farms and pups being bred for profit only. the proof is in the comments after these sorts of articles and what the public say most say stop breeding dogs on farms. which is good.

i have no problem with someone from the VCA inspecting my premises and every breeder to ensure we are upholding the rules and regulations that we all sign up for. if members have something to hide maybe they would object? as it is VCA members do not get inspected by the council and no one inspects them so they could be a farmer/.backyarder in disguise and no one regulates these people. it makes no difference if a person is registered or not. oddly enough some members re: puppy farm issue that VCA had a meeting on, asked for an inspection officer who regularly does this job out in the field, at the moment all they have is an officer who comes out if the members request it and you have to pay for this officer to come out. is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product. if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this over breeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations? i know what your line of thinking is judging by a similar subject a while ago where we debated a similar subject. penalise these large farms where they churn out 2000 puppies a year and regulate then they end up regulating all of us too. what gives us the right to say we are the only ones to breed puppies. my answer would be that you cannot compare a hobby breeder with maybe 2 or less than 2 litters a year to breed for a purpose and not for profit breeding puppies with health tests (farms don't test their crosses because it costs too much its all about profit)reared in a family home to these large puppy farms thoughtlessly churning out pups left, right and centre its like comparing chalk to cheese. the problem is that the public have no idea where to get a dog and it should be more publised there is a better way to get a well bred dog rather than buying from a farm/petshop and i see that allowing these farms to continue does nothing to stop anything. puppy farms should be outlawed and the only way a person can buy a puppy is from a registered breeder who is regulated not a farm.

just want to address this comment, an animal inspection officer that i know off, actually checks newspaper adverts for litters advertised then poses as a buyer to inspect these farmers under the radar. and if they reg their dog as not desexed then they are monitored. there are alot of people apparently in the gippsland area that are "under the radar" anyway not going to be able to stop them, what we want to see is these large farms (one in gippsland is the biggest in victoria and this farm that had its application refused by the council was going to top that) closed down for good we have no need in society for large farms like this at all whether they are registered and regularly inspected or not. period. thats what we'd like to see happen. regularly inspected as they so call it is not working at all.

steve! i am referring to the comments below the article not the article itself, have you scrolled down to the comments??? you are obviously referring to the council but it has to go to VCAT first and VCAT are sometimes known to favour the puppy farmer. i don't dispute the fact that the council have done the right thing here it appears anyway. we are actually referring to one farmer who has got on there and condemmed the VCA and its members they are trying to say thats its fine to breed dogs for profit in large puppy farms???????? im referring to these puppy farmers who often pull the wool over the publics eyes on their right to have these large farms with hundreds of x-bred dogs and their right to breed for profit with no forethought for welfare. meanwhile spin porkies to the average joe/jane public to make it sound all fluffy and nice so they can still buy their pups. ETA: i don't agree with the comment either that these farms are regularly inspected so its all good, its bullcrap, as i know of several that are regularly inspected yet when the authorities backs are turned there are still welfare issues and cruelty big time which i wont go into. government sanctioned cruelty they call it. big woop they are inspected. the one that got raided in gippsland was regularly inspected yet there was major welfare issues there as the RSPCA helped clean that farm up. another farmer in this same area got taken to court over the care of their dogs yet was given a permit to breed up more dogs. so thats regular DPI/council inspections hard at work there. if you read down the comments, they are saying that other farm that was caught and closed down was VCA reg breeder, and it does happen that sometimes they were or are registered with VCA but really why should the ethical breeders have to cop negative comments about our organisation just because a few people don't do the right thing??? Does it mean we are all like this, no. i always say there are farmers in amongst ANKC breeders too just because they are reg doesn't make them any better than anyone else. public have to screen and know how to screen to ensure they are ethical, they are on the right track if they choose a breeder who doesn't breed for profit and a breeder that doesn't farm their dogs.

geelong advertiser please read the comments below article as "they" attack VCA members. we see still trying to pull the wool over the publics eyes but i think the public is getting wiser which is good to see.

puppies can be shown from 12 weeks in baby puppy. shows are good to learn about your breed with olive baby to view other labs for you to learn and compare your dog to others and also to talk to other owners/breeders and to learn about the breed. show are not there only for looks as so many people make that mistake. i always suggest to new people to join your state club for your breed and talk as much as possible to people in your breed to get a good rounded view and then you can make an educated guess as to whether your little girl is good enough or not. also helpful to have a mentor someone that is very experienced in the breed and can guide you. you have come to right place here on DOL so thats a pretty good start, when i first started there wasn't an internet! lol

we've noticed the head bobbing thing with our little unwell chihuahua puppy. he sometimes walks around like as though his head is too heavy to hold up. and became very weak then perked up then went down. someone has suggested to me that he might have hypoglycemia, so we've put the puppy on nutrigel 3 times a day recommended to me by a few breeders who are experienced with puppies like this and its done wonders for our puppy. i don't know just a suggestion you might want to consider???

we all have to start somewhere but i'd research the lines and really do my homework on the puppy you bought, talk to the breeder find out what their thoughts are, talk to as many breeders as you can learn about the breed. find out if your dog is a good example of the breed. had a query just today from a lady who has an unregistered poodle and wants to breed her to a male, she is for some reason studying patella luxation and PRA (maybe the dogs relatives are affected??) she says if she is going to pay the money she wants the stud tested. she wants to breed her little poodle because she bought her off her cousin who knows alot about the breed and has bred unreg poodles without papers. so i pointed out to her that breeder is in breach if they let the dog service an unreg bitch plus if they test the stud and the family they aren't going to let just anyone use their dog. i told her she is better off forgetting the unknown factor in her bitch, she hasn't got pedigrees to work off to see whether the family of dogs are healthy or not and what she is going to bring to the pups produced. then i blocked her because time and time again i get abused by telling people the truth that they don't want to hear. the last lady i told the truth to politely mind you, she was going to call the police on me

thanks mini girl.

you've got a good point and i agree. some are not that approachable. when we were looking for a pom puppy from breeders i got 2 who slammed the phone down on me and i wanted a show dog so can you imagine how they would have treated pet people! so rude. not a good reputation for reg breeders, guaranteed to turn anyone off enough to go to a petshop or backyarder. hence why i have written 2 articles on the subject and tell anyone that will listen about the pitfalls of petshop pups also try and grab people who enquire through my website i get several people each week. also have a rescue dog that i use to promote and i sometimes ride the trains with him and tell people about shelter dogs and dogs like my Jake. i've inspired 3 people to get rescue dogs themselves through my jake. equally i also promote reg breeders and what we are about. riding the train with a well behaved dog is very interesting i've had people come up and ask if he is a seeing eye dog as he sits under my seat (dogs are allowed on the trains as long as they are contained and muzzled) and then others come up and tell me about their dogs and it creates conversation. i am thinking of writing a pamplet to do a letter drop with, something about puppy farms and reg breeds and to go to dogsvic etc.

That's how I read it, too. I usually start weaning my puppies at 4 weeks (because Standards have such large litters) but there is NO WAY I would let a 6 week old puppy go to a new home, and NO WAY I would send a puppy to a new home if it wasn't well-used to solid food. we start at this age too with our little breed by 6 weeks they are usually eating and almost fully weaned.

You havent worked that one out yet?? Given that it is a cross bred litter from a BYB they obviously couldnt wait to find homes for the puppies. Why spend more money looking after them and weaning them properly when you can flog them off to unsuspecting owners Sad isnt it my grandmother wanted a chihuahua this was about 25 years ago so my cousin went to a petshop and got a "chihuahua" ended up being a fox terrier cross kelpie, but we worked out the puppy was only 5 weeks old it could hardly stand maybe even younger than that, they flogged it off as a chi when it was only a baby to create the illusion it was a small chihuahua. i don't think Cindy as we named her, was quite weaned properly. She lived to 17 BTW. tough as nails but not a chihuahua not one bit of her was a chihuahua.

i was going to say this in the other thread, some breeders are saying they take the pups off the bitch at 6 weeks but we have found for many years that the bitch and pups make the decision for you quite naturally as the last few litters the pups have always started eating the dams food on their own and learning to lap on their own, and they follow the natural order of things to get to an age where they don't suck on the dam anymore. i've had chloe our main bitch that is a really good mum she loves to sleep with her sons and daughters one son she slept with until he was 3 and i never really separated or had to force things they worked it out themselves. should explain that with chihuahuas they very much like to sleep all together quite often you see 3 or 4 in the same bed. or if you pick up a carrier to take to a show you will get 5 try to jump in the carrier at the same time and they fit in a little tranport carrier quite easily being a very small dog.

I am trying to understand the bolded part of your post. Di Vetelact is a weaning supplement for young puppies. In my opinion I cant see any thing wrong with weaning a six week old puppy. This may be being done because the bitches milk supply is drying up. It may be that the puppies are not thriving but need more sustanance. This is a recommended supplement. If fed a correct diet a lactacting mum shouldnt need a milk supplement. Milk doesnt make milk. Water does. You said these people got advised by the breeder to put the puppy on this formula, but that the puppy was not fully weaned?????? If these people have the puppy(we shant go into the fact that the puppy is to young to of gone to a home)then they have gone about the right thing and are sourcing a good supplement. Or maybe I am missing the whole point of what you are saying. Are you saying that this supplement is no good for weaning? If that is the case then please explain , why not? i can't agree more with you when you explain about what the milk supplement is used for and how the mother makes milk etc. however this is not my point. what im saying maybe i didn't make it clear i do sometimes have a habit of doing that even when im speaking to people sometimes they do tend to go "eh " im afraid with me, most are saying they think im saying this or that, the puppy was not weaned at all the way we heard it that is why the nurse was asking questions as to why use in the first place, the breeder told these people to put it straight onto the supplement so solids aren't even in the equation. 6 weeks is rather young. but it is young for a puppy who hasn't even started the process of being weaned onto solids. im not saying anything about the supplement and whether it is good or not good, the focus is on the puppy who hasn't been weaned off the mother at all.