toy dog

Copied from your very own website.... "A puppy farmer is a person who sells their dogs for money"...... so by your very own definition, anyone who has ever sold a dog for money is a puppy farmer. Do you mind telling me what you require as a means of payment for any pups you may sell what is this now a witchhunt on me personally or something? No, but really did you think about what you wrote before you put it out there? Statements like that don't do responsible breeders any favours. well thats your opinion and i have a right to put whatever i want on my own website end of story

Copied from your very own website.... "A puppy farmer is a person who sells their dogs for money"...... so by your very own definition, anyone who has ever sold a dog for money is a puppy farmer. Do you mind telling me what you require as a means of payment for any pups you may sell what is this now a witchhunt on me personally or something?

if you mean putting up oscar law stuff, i've had that there for years and never really thought about it, after this lively discussion and others point of view on the whole thing, im actually thinking that instead of supporting their cause and giving out oscar law flyers, i think i will forget it and make up my own, something that entails the benefits of pedigree dogs over pups and dogs bought at petshops and puppy farms. the state controlling body here had flyers you could download of their webs a few years ago and distribute far better to do this. i feel like a rebel now especially when it was made clear that i was not to promote pedigree dogs at all against crosses. lol

apparently i am being told that this subject has been done to death over the years a few posts back someone said this sorry i can't be bothered to look back. i am not a regular i've been on DOL since 2004 but disappear for months at a time i was unaware of this subject. i still find this discussion facinating and perhaps if the people who are saying this has been done to death perhaps don't read this thread if people are so sick of it??? just a suggestion ;) im not the only one repeating myself as many are trying to get their points across. all good. im also not the only one that is sometimes maybe a bit off topic. i don't want to start trouble with anyone especially people i don't know, but being told these things is bound to get up anyone's nose especially when we are all on a public forum and wanting to participate as best as we can. ok enough said....this in itself is so back on topic.

ah but wait they'll still find you, locals talk and some even go as far as to dob in anyone seeing doing the wrong thing by the animals. ;) so you won't get away with it na ah ah (always wanted to use that emoticon and now i found a reason to )

maybe thats why they don't like me then but i don't care.

what does EFS mean can i ask? i just think this is an excellent point. im looking from the puppy farm end and what the government said they'll do, make tougher laws before they came into office in VIC at least, but it helps no one least of all the dogs. and they have all these laws in place like height of cages yadda yadda yadda, yet able to keep their dogs on chook wire every day - it must hurt the dogs poor little paws, they sit in their plastic bowls or beds all day to get away from the wire , they give birth on this wire so the poo can fall through to the bottom and it stays there, the metal sheds they are kept in i often wonder how hot it is in the summer and how cold it is in the winter all they have is fans to keep the dogs cool in summer no air-conditioner like my dogs get. I often look at my own dogs and think how these dogs must be suffering and how i can't do anything about it. it makes me sad..... this farm was found to be operating illegally they didn't even have a licence in the start then continued to flout the law with other various things but still everyone knows about them and they still continue to exist, now they have a licence i believe. by rights you keep on breaking the law you don't get to operate a farm or own animals as steve says, but time and time again these people still get to to do these horrible crimes against animals, and some are licenced - no one can stop them. i know about this one personally as i have had the misfortunate to meet and grow up with one of the operators much to my embarrassment they are a waste of space..... i know how they operate they are a cold cold person i know what lengths they go to with their animals care factor is ZERO. same person who tried to get our dogs in the beginning at that time was just a BYB but now a fully fledged puppy farm. thank god we had enough sense to desex all of our dogs before selling in this area as they even had the gall to send along people to try and trick us into selling at one stage.

no i think what is being said is these dogs are being bought from a puppy farm for thousands of dollars???? so the farmer yet again wins big by selling to rescues so whoever they sell to doesn't matter to the farmer as long as they make their money. play on the emotions of the people trying to help the dogs. this wouldnt' help anything i don't believe it would only serve to encourage?????? where do the rescue get all this money to buy the dogs, when most are crying out for more funding?

i agree 100% with this statement, this is what i've been trying to say and poodlefan said it better not long winded like i. some clubs invite the public to open days where the breeders get together and let the public ask questions and hold puppies and it is great great PR for the breeds involved. I personally walk my dogs down busy streets and i get people coming up wanting to chat, ALSO i have a website where i invite the public to ask me questions on dogs and that is rescues plus pedigrees. both equally i just love dogs so willing to help. this creates quite a bit of traffic for me so i can then educate on the no-no's of petshop buys and direct people to a more appropriate purchase of their pet. however, you do get the ignorumesus's for instance, one lady who asked me for a pomchi, i politely pointed out it is a pom cross chi and where to get one i.e. shelter not a BYB or farm then she got all defensive claiming that is the name they are called and then started calling me very nasty names, her last email before i blocked her abuse out was get your pedigree dogs and my head and shove it up my behind all because i politely suggested to her that it is called a pomeranian cross . so you are always going to get people out there that think they know better and dn't want to be educated, their loss. its always entertaining those types of people i must say.

thanks nic.b you'd think the way i was spoken to i am suggesting my way or the highway mack, instead of trying to defend myself with incorrect assumptions and just expressing the way i feel which happens to coincide with alot of people apparently. i do agree with what most has written in the DEBATE and i do try to consider what is written by others if I can. this is what we are all doing debating and alot of individual opinions are expressed in a forum. if we all knew what each other was thinking and knew the whole lot about everything it would either be very boring or we'd have no need to have forums in the first place would we.

i realise this but i am getting asked questions and i have to explain myself as people are trying to summerise what im saying in a completely different way jaybeece plus we are not the only ones that read these forums if you do a google search on a particular subject these forums will come up so the public do read these too. not just "us"....mate.... ETA: i do believe i've just been told to p***ss off so i will then jaybeece obviously you have taken upon yourself to speak for everyone in these forums and no one is interested in reading my posts. everyone else is writing "essays" as you have so politely put so they can but i can't.

well as i've been saying a few times, these people have a history with keeping dogs and i believe a leopard doesn't change its spots overnight. no it wouldnt be okay for me becaue they are still breeding dogs for money and they are still going to pump out how many pups they can pump out. which could be hundreds or thousands, keeping 50 just includes the adults it doesn't include the pups produced. so they pretty much have a free reign on that just as long as they get rid of the pups before 12 weeks when they have to register them with the council. my own auntie was a puppy farmer herself, she was only concerned with making money off ped dogs and now i realise that but in those days it was never spoken off and never concentrated on but she was also very cruel to the pups that were unhealthy but still alive, no one hardly ever took dogs to the vets to be put down, they either drowned them or buried them alive. i've heard all the stories and it makes me sick. this is going back in the 1950's 1960's so a very long time ago. no thats what im saying i agree with you, as long as the public buys and wants these petshop puppies and this allows farmers to keep churing them out, we will never stop the cycle, it is up to joe public they have the power to stop this. attitudes have to change whether they will or not i don't know. but some say the tide is turning as in recent years thanks to groups like oscar law and rescue and RSPCA (not my fav people ) its out there for the public to consider.

thats just it what i was saying about genetics and breeding standards etc etc. can't really go into it all and make it all public i could be liable here, they didn't agree with me thats why they chucked me out. i was a ped breeder and they had a problem with ped dogs being represented when as you say, it doesn't matter whether a person has purebreds or crosses they don't distinquish between the two is what i found out. if you breed dogs you are automatically a bad person only in it to make a profit and there is nothing inbetween at all. judging by my conversation with a person that was pretty high up on the ladder. i cannot say any more than that Steve. please. i know where you are coming from and you are completely right. but still i am against puppy farms like the rest of us are ofcourse we all are. O.K. Its good to be against puppy farms but running with animal lib is folly. i can't speak for anyone else but i am not RUNNING with animal lib or anyone else, im not in with them or involved with them myself.....I am just following along what they are doing and saying on their webs, because i am interested. they don't talk about ped breeders out in the open mainly they speak about puppy farms so in my eyes all good. there are some reg breeders that still get to speak as they just generally speak about pup farms some are involved in rescue as well they just have a problem with me because i talked too much about pedigrees apparently which is a no-no in their eyes.

why don't you take all that to VCAT you seem to have it all worked out pretty well.

don't get me started on RSPCA and what they define the main thing for me is they coupled with oscar law people and got the message out there that puppy farms are there to the general community all the other stuff they say some of it, i don't really agree with, really, they'd be better to define puppy farms as people who breed dogs for profit in substandard conditions. but for me a farmer can have registered dogs too i have come across many over the years, they don't give a shite about the dogs.....it doesn't exclude them just becuase they have purebreds i am not that shallow to suggest that pedigree breeders are any way better. its an individual case by case thing, but what im saying is a person that breeds cross breeds has less of a chance to be able to do all the things an ethical registered breeder does breeding dogs for a purpose other than for profit.

thats just it what i was saying about genetics and breeding standards etc etc. can't really go into it all and make it all public i could be liable here, they didn't agree with me thats why they chucked me out. i was a ped breeder and they had a problem with ped dogs being represented when as you say, it doesn't matter whether a person has purebreds or crosses they don't distinquish between the two is what i found out. if you breed dogs you are automatically a bad person only in it to make a profit and there is nothing inbetween at all. judging by my conversation with a person that was pretty high up on the ladder. i cannot say any more than that Steve. please. i know where you are coming from and you are completely right. but still i am against puppy farms like the rest of us are ofcourse we all are. ETA: this is what i've been saying there are probably farms who are state of the art but the motive is still the same still breeding bitches every season and pumping out pups into society that receive no backing because there are just too many to cater for and find each and every one a suitable home, these dogs don't get the opportunity to be family pets in a persons home so the farmer has no way of knowing if their personalities are indeed suited to family life so could be breeding terrible temperamented dogs that don't make good pets for people. the pups aren't socialised so get shoved from cage to class cage no interaction, the list goes on why its not a good idea. dogs are very human orientated animals and these dogs being intensively farmed do not end up fitting the criteria. dogs are not livestock and need training, socialisation and interaction with humans they don't get it in a farm environment. plus genetic problems are not taken into account either. the same can be said for a BYB only in it for profit. this is what i tell people. and why it is so wrong. i thought oscars law was to rid animals from petshops too but as i read more and more and talk to people there are other ideas coming forward as well with this one and it does scare me.

lilli i appreciate your "analysis" on the whole issue, but i really believe you are over analysing just a tad. Can you find statistics for 1980-1985 when i began in the dog world? i'd be interested to see. 10 years is just too close for me considering intense breeding farms began probably about 18-20 years ago or started cropping up then. this is not what i said at all and not what i mean. my theory is, if dogs are going to be pumped out left right and centre from point of sale from the breeder end to make sure people are going to be suitable and then offer quality after sales service would equal less dogs being unwanted. not less dogs being bred. so to fill the quota of people wanting pets and the demand we should pump out pups in farms? because ped breeders are in the minority and cannot supply the demand? as i say we are a very disposable society today and people want things now without thought or planning for the future.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf. So why do you support them? to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC. but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf.

ok i will......... i said: i believe i said why have puppy farms not why dogs are in pounds in the first place. if all the dogs in rescue/shelters/pounds had homes to go to or homes could be found we wouldn't have any dogs in the system at all. my point was churning out even more puppies out into society when we have dogs looking for homes and being killed needlessly (for whatever reason) ETA: knowing "why" doesn't really help the fact that there are lots of dogs needing homes in our shelter/rescue/pound system. i am not disagreeing with the reasons "why" with Lilli either. Lilli has said: if all dogs had a home to go to they wouldn't be in the system in the first place would they. so as a society we still keep pumping out pups and yes agree a "farmer" by defination is someone making money on their animals the purpose of breeding is for money. and that is the number of adult dogs i don't believe it will take into account pups produced as they won't be old enough to be registered so technically like alot of farms they can produce how many pups they want as long as they are sold at a certain age. one farm i viewed the documents off had a very high death rate but still managed to produce 1800 pups in one period alone. and it is obvious by the breeds they want to obtain in this farm that they are going to cross them, he claims he is doing a service for the community and has done for the last 8 years by buying and selling dogs and acting as some kind of an agent. i fail to see how that is helping the community.

and why are you centering the discussion around the issue of why dogs end up in the shelter? we are talking about whether we should have puppy farms or not. whether a dog ends up in there because the owner cannot afford to look after it, can't deal with its personality, is moving house or going overseas there;s a million and one reasons why a dog ends up in the pound or shelters across the country. there's no denying that our shelters and pounds regardless of the reasons why dogs end up in there in the first place have alot of dogs in there that they are trying to find homes for. i think we can all agree on that principle can't we? and whether they have to put them to sleep is also not the issue, they put them to sleep we've established that from not having enough room because of mismanagement, i get that, or because the dog is not suitable to be rehomed or a million and one reasons why there too. showing that you can research something and look in the internet is commendable i can do that too but there is no denying the fact that we as a society being a throw away one not valuing our domestic pets (whether thats been the case for many years or not) don't need to be adding to the number of dogs needing homes good or bad by breeding up thousands in these intensive dog farming establishments. if the pup or dog was looked after from the point of sale as Nic.B. pointed out the poor doggy nic.b is saving didn't have backup from the breeder who bred him. which if he had he would never have ended up being looked after in the system and adding to the numbers already in there. it brings a whole different other argument to the peice of petshops not knowing how to properly look after the breed in question so is unable to pass that onto the buyer, the buyer doesn't get the support to ask question and prevent the dog being cast off to welfare organisations. this is a very common story as i say, dogs and cats and our domestic animals are disposable and the culture in our society leans towards this especially when thousands upon thousands of dogs are bred in farms and not backed up and sold off to shops who have no idea the requirements that these poor puppies need but are passed off without the knowledge there and then discarded when it all gets a bit too hard. a breeder who cares about what they are breeding, will backup and answer questions and find suitable homes so the dumpage rate is reduced drastically so is this all erroneous Lilli by your standards then?

i just wish they'd stop this onslaught of ridiculous money making schemes and fashions. that "dog" would have been a puppy not an adult and many buy pups and sell pups and quote they are teacups when infact they will grow up and be normal sized adults. on facebook i see many months ago they had pictures from some coffee place of little puppy chihuahuas in mugs calling them teacup chihuahuas and i said no they are chihuahua mugs.....grrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!! they said should we be breeding dogs this small? maybe they should have suggested we should all stop breeding dogs altogether will that make everyone happy grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr im doing alot of growling here.

in the breeds defence they are mixing oodle dogs with small chihuahuas and they said teacup "dogs" not teacup "chihuahuas" which is what people refer to the really small chis as. plus, we don't breed for these they are impossible to breed so small you just get them in a litter occassionally in all the years we've bred chis from alot of different bloodlines we've only got 2 like this so reasonably healthy breed. really pointless story i must say. said nothing about nothing really

steve said im not telling people what they should do or not do but its just common sense that most that do breed for profit alone with their little crosses im not talking about reg breeders im talking about DD puppy farms. they aint gonna spend money and reduce their profit margin on their dogs getting tests, vaccinations, vetting the dogs and reseaching bloodlines. its not ALL animal rights people! it is the council, RSPCA and residents as well as others from outside from the public as well as those darn animal rights people. and yes in my travels came across a few reg breeders like you who have hoarded alot of animals but others say farmer whisper behind their backs but turn a blind eye to the suffering of those animals. in the meantime reg breeders like this have the potential to ruin all of our reputations. i've rescued dogs from so called reg breeders who are not motivated by money who can't see what they are doing to the dogs. not in bed with no one, i am my own person. in the beginning before the animal people came in we were there. its just been a big media coverage now that they are there which is good it is creating awareness and educating people about puppy farms. how do you know this is true, has anyone told you that? they plan to divide us have all groups fighting against each other. i don't think "they" know enough to do this - who are they? is it the government is it oscar law people? is it PETA, i can believe PETA they are against everything these days bit scary. AFAIK The government are trying to bung all breeders dosn't matter if cross bred DD or purebred in together because they don't know any better ignorance is bliss. who speaks the loudest isn't us unfortunately. but at the same time i got told that our interests are being protected so thats all we can hope for at the end of the day. its not so much as judging these people are known to locals and council from past experiences so building fancy houses and adhering to codes won't change people's personalities i don't believe. but we will see. VCAT have put it all through so protesting about it from my past experiences doesn't really change the authorities mind but i think they just want to create awareness and let them know people aren't happy about it. which i think is a good thing. Lilli said why don't you get on prisoners for profit website and tell them that then?????? im not trying to control anything. i am stating fact and what is happening and trying to create awareness. not statistics just stating fact and common sense, what is that supposed to mean the usual suspects. this is a forum i am talking about what i believe in and my feelings towards all this like everyone else on this forum you describe me like a criminal, this is a subject as i stated at the start is very close to my heart. I am an animal lover and also a registered breeder who has rescued and fostered animals, GASP oh gosh imagine that...ooooooooo i know you get your beliefs and statements from an article written by a person who is ALSO INVOLVED in oscar law and pet rescue, you stated this last time when we had a similar debate. You gave me a link with a person who i have met and used some of her articles. Its just one opinion of why they believe dogs are surrended - im not saying she is incorrect at all there are many opinions out there and there are many aspects as to why our shelters are full Lilli, why owners surrender animals however this is not what i am referring to i am talking about adding to the already overpopulation by breeding even more animals from people who take no responsibility in what they breed and now it is much worse as they have removed the amount of time to rehome animals, i see in some cases looking at rescue websites the volume of dogs wanting homes has increased two fold..its very sad. just stating what i am viewing. So let me get this straight, it is just a myth that our shelters and rescues are full up and finding it hard to find homes then. no statistics were stated, blind freddy would be able to tell you with half a brain that we are full up and we don't need to be adding thousands more dogs in society finding homes and relying on the shelter/rescue organisations i don't remember it being this way in such a crisis 25-30-40 years ago either maybe you remember the past different to me or maybe you are again quoting that wonderful article you saw???? since people have worked out they don't need a pedigree like the past to make money off, they can put any dog to any dog and make money cross bred no history is more money these days so easy peasy then they shed all responsibility for these dogs if they are surrended who cares they aint gona take them back which leaves these dogs in limbo and dependant on the system to pick up the bill and the responsibility. if all breeders BYB, farmers, reg breeders all looked after what they bred then how would that play out in the shelter/rescue system then, would it not reduce a significant amount of animals needing homes? i don't know just a radical thought there.........

yes i suggested this to them, that there are many registered breeders including myself who advertise online so they should change the wording to read, online puppy farms which is what they are meaning, click of the mouse and you've bought your designer dog online and it is delivered to you like a product no going out to the premises which makes it even easier for these farmers to operate and exploit their dogs. but what i suggested fell on deaf ears, they weren't listening at that stage as they found a few reg breeders doing the wrong thing and breeding crosses apparently so i was a badie i also got told not to promote purebred or registered breeders but i was offering my experience in breeding dogs and trying to tell the public about why it is not a good choice to buy a designer dog that could have hidden genetic problems. this was on facebook i got chucked off. and told to shut up. personally i thought there was a lot of jealousy and i was getting too much attention so out the door i went.