Just Midol

Yep that's right. It does not increase in intensity automatically. It shouldn't need to, if the setting you select is right for the dog. Why spend your $$$ on something you might not ever need? Still .... your choice and your right to do with your $$$ what you wish , but I'd rather spend my money on stuff that won't need to just sit idle collecting dust somewhere (with any luck ). Yeah, but they'd be fun to play with I've probably used my e-collar more on myself than my dogs.

AFAIK it occurs because the dog receives the stim when its away from you (Sit at a distance/recall) so it temporarily learns that being close to you is safe, and no zappys come.

Ohh, I'll read his book I still disagree that there is no social structure but I'll read it anyway For example, Gizmo does everything before Lily when it does not involve me. If I'm not here, Gizmo is first, with everything. If he wants to sit somewhere, he does it. She moves without any violence usually - I consider this a social structure, sure, it might only exist because if she doesn't move he will make her move and has the capacity to do so, but in my mind that's still a form of social hierarchy. I'm just thinking here, but my definition of social hierarchy might not match the more technical definition. Even if I changed my mind, I'd still enforce all the rules in the same manner as I currently do because regardless of the theory behind it, it works

LM, you may be missing the point YES your dogs are "hunting"....chasing, catching and eating. But they are doing so purely for the thrill and reward value, not for survival purposes. If your dog's were left on their own, they would not choose to hunt over scavenging to survive as this is too costly energy wise. It is not in their genes to hunt to survive....it is in their genes to display hunting motor patterns. I still disagree, you really have no way of knowing whether they would or would not hunt to survive. This is all speculation after all, we have no way of knowing whether dogs would die out or not. There are a ton of different theories, and this man who you went to is only giving one theory. ETA: Even if pack theory is incorrect, the principles of enforcing leadership are still very important, leadership is important, whether or not dogs recognise us as the leader of a "pack".

Why? Wild dogs survive quite readily in many of the 3rd world countries, so do cats.

The same way every dictionary out there defines Hierarchy? An order of rank? In this case social rank. Whether or not dogs are working to get what they want is irrelevant, the fact that there is an apparent ranking of dogs means there is a Hierarchy. I specifically said I wasn't talking about hunting as a pack. Prey drive is directly related to hunting. The fact that my dogs would rather kill prey and eat it than scavenge shows that not all dogs are simply scavengers. Some are hunters. Hunting is simply pursuing/chasing an animal for food, which is what my dogs do, therefore they are hunting. This behavior is pretty normal in Huskies but up till recently Huskies weren't kept domestically all year round. They were let go to fend for themselves out of season and very rarely did they split up so they could still have the instinctual side of hunting which many other breeds have had removed. It might even still occur. Kelpie, I don't necessarily think it benefits the group. Not all actions have to benefit the group. It does however, allow my dogs to function as a group. Also as above, my dogs are hunting. Turn it any way you want, dress it up anyway you like, they chase animals, catch animals, eat animals. They are hunting. They chose hunting over scavenging.

Hmm, not entirely sure I agree with no social hierarchy. In my house, it's pretty clear there is a social hierarchy. I wasn't saying them chasing a rabbit or animal is related to pack, simply that not all dogs are scavengers, some still hunt.

I dunno, if my huskies found a dead possum and a live one ran past they'd go and eat the live one before they hit the dead one up for a meal.

Most working Husky breeders don't test, very few of them ever have trouble. If the dog can't run it won't be bred, if it can run, its hips are fine. Laeral: It's environment & genetic. Someone in general once told me if you have two perfect parents they have a 30% chance of producing perfect pups.

Is it possible for dogs to have lost the desire to hunt in a pack, but when forced into a group situation still has a social hierarchy? My personal belief is that if dogs were let out they wouldn't necessarily live as a pack, but when forced to live together then organise a social hierarchy simply because they have to in order to function.

And doesn't increase intensity itself? I think I like the same ones you like. I'm looking at getting a couple of anti-barking collars. I don't actually need one, yet, but I still want one.

No - difficulties come from some of the models that ramp up as the dog continues to bark. And then take time to re-set once the dog stops. Dogs are pretty cluey, as you know . Ahh, yeah, that'd make more sense.

The style of collar as well as the way they are initially introduced to the dog BEFORE use can and often does make a big difference to both of these things. Would one that gives a warning beep be more likely to cause this?

How did you introduce the dog to the collar?

Pretty sure e-collars are illegal in NSW. It's just that no one cares.

What do you mean? I know some folks do the Sch Ob, but don't participate in the Bitework,is this what you mean by that? Nah, I'm just saying from what I've read and observed that some people are ignoring what schuhtzhund was suppose to test, isn't it supposed to test a dogs working ability but from what I can gather many dogs (might not be a problem in aust, only in the us) can only compete on certain fields & under certain decoys. Like I said, might not be a problem over here but from reading on the US forums it appears to be a problem there, and a lot of dogs who don't deserve titles are apparently getting them. If someone just wants to do the Obedience and Tracking parts then more power to them, I fully support that - Craig (my trainer) reckons we can do both security patrol work and Schuhtzhund with Montu if i put in the work so I am hoping we can

Yeha, both sibes got out yesterday so I am very keen on getting going again, gizmo has a perfect SAD but I didn't want to use it in case he ignored it. I just want my calender to arrive so I can create a reward system for myself :D

They do installments. Word of advice, ring on a regular basis before the block training. I haven't actually learnt much so far, everything in the first lot of DVDs I already knew from my leerburg dvds and from reading this forum. I assume I'll learn more later on though.

I'm the same as you, just haven't had the time to put into it after working and doing drive work with Montu. I want to prove I can get perfect recalls on two huskies at the same time :D

My comments in bold.

Meh, I certainly don't care about going OT :D

What Schutzhund is doing, and what it was intended to do seem to be very different things.

I thought LGDs were bred to define the threat themselves? For example, if there is a threat and you call it off the dog will usually ignore you and attend to the threat? That would create a very, very unreliable working patrol dog.

I didn't intend to include them as imo their guarding is more instinctual, where breeds like the GSD, Malinois, Rottie, Boxer, Dobes seem to have the relevant drives but they won't protect effectively without pretty serious training. I know many like to think their dogs (of the previously specified breeds) can protect effectively without training but I'm not really interested in that debate More talking about people with pet dogs who THINK the dogs are naturally protecting them, but any discussion including that on LGDs is wanted!

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if the authorities would know the difference? I expect that they do, given that for years they've been looking to stop the sport but as I understand it, couldn't do so due to the wording of previous regulation. That the wording has changed to specifically include the 'biting of anything worn' and that the Council are now pulling Sch into the legal lime light indicates to me that they knew exactly what the difference is. They probably just don't see the difference. Dog biting sleeve for sport = dog biting arm for protection = dog biting arm Unfortunately. QLD recognises the difference, so at least one government has.