Jefe's owners

Don't think for a second that I don't love my dogs, and that I won't go the extra mile to provide for them. You don't wanna get there. Its not so hypothetic as you think... how many time does this happen here in Australia with the yearly bush fires? and houses made of wood... not so unlikely. I would never risk leaving my child orphan for saving my dog... but hey, those are my priorities... and I don't have kids.. And no matter what you say... it is not the same as asking which of your two childs would you save... they are not the same. But again, that's the way I see it.

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No, I'm not suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is that I would not grieve for long, and that for me, its just a dog, and that I would not compare a child to a dog. Not in a million years. As I wrote before, it is the way I see life and death and grieve... you don't have to share this view, and I can understand you find it difficult to understand. There was no need for the abuse though. This will hurt and you will hate me (if you don't already), but that's fine as I'm a morron, idiot, tosser and other things on private mail... and I won't lose sleep over it If you had to choose who lives and who dies, between your child and your he-is-like-a-child-to-me dog. Which one would you choose?... Yeah I thought so too. At the end of the day its just a dog...

The Dog, actually a large puppy, was taken from our backyard and was never seen again. One of the neighbours saw somebody jumping our fence, that's how I know it was stolen. A more adult dog would not allow anyone jump in our backyard. This was our fault as we failed to secure what it was a very handsome GSD puppy. I had a GSDX that was affraid of fireworks, gunshots, backfires, etc. He always tried to run INSIDE the house, as it fell secure there. If the house was closed, he would run inside his "Kennel" (Backyard coffe table purposedly located in a corner for him to hide). I still don't understand why he would want to run away though. No reason to be sorry. The dog got stolen... there's not much you can do about it other than keep looking for it, and that's what I did, but never found it. I also had a dog poisoned by my next dog neighbour... just because her cat was affraid of it. Also had a GSD puppy accidentally poisoned with rat poison placed by other neighbour... I failed to secure the dog, as it was too puppy and too curious. Shit happens? Yes!, but I should have seen the posibility comming. Lesson learned.I had another GSDX that lived with us 17 years, he outlived three other dogs... when he was about 12 he started loosing his mind... he would cry and bark for hours to be left out to the street (common practice where I grow up), and when you left him out out of the backyard he would run to the front door to be left in!... it was like that for the last 5 years of his life, two and three times a day, no matter it was day, night, sunny or rainy... he eventually developed a bone hip tumor, which was not operable, he started having problems walking, and we employed pain management strategy while it had some effect on him. One day this was not enough, he started suffering, and he would have little appetite... his quality of life was no longer good, the only fair thing to do out of respect and love for a good friend as to terminate his life. How can I be so callous? I don't know... I don't think I'm callous. I did suffer when they died, dissapeared, etc... it broke my heart, but I also lost my father when I was very young, which as you can imagine was really hard in comparison to losing my beloved pet. I learned early on my life that no matter what, LIFE GOES ON AND IS NOT WAITING FOR ME TO MOVE ON. The sooner I recover from my wounds and get up on my feet, the sooner I'll be ready to take on life in the face. When you lose a pet, which can be as a child for some people, there's nothing else you can do, its gone. At the end of the day, in the big and simple context of life, its a dog. The way I see it, is ok to grieve their lost, but I much preffer to remember the good things I shared with them. Hence I can always smile about it. If our dog dies tomorrow, yes, we'll suffer, we will learn the lesson if there's one the be learned, but as we have so much love to give (me thinks), and a good home to offer (me thinks again), I would probably rescue another dog, which deserves a second chance, sooner rather than later... This is part of my life philosophy, and I understand it might shock some people. I don't expect people to understand it or share it.

Freckles, that is prey drive. There a a few more drives... Prey drive is more effective though. However, as some of you say so, I'm wrong. Then I stand corrected, I'll now shut my mouth. Thanks for your objective contribution Dog logic.

Not on purpose. It has happened twice. Once we were at home, once we weren't.

Please, please, please! tell me, when or where have I said that training in drive would be the solution for separation anxiety?Separation anxiety is a behavioural problem, that must be dealt accordingly, different training techniques must be employed in this case. A dog behaviourist might be able to shed some light on how to deal with it... but I have never said training in drive is the solution do S.A. I have said however, that training in drive would work with any dog. All you have to do is find the right drive to train the dog in. I might be wrong, so please correct me if that is the case. But behaviour problems are a totally different set of training issues that might need different training technique. Still a training issue none the less I've had it. I did not disrespect anyone until now. there's so much abuse im willing to take. I'll take my little opinion and I'm still an idiot. But I will not abuse anyone.

Not only mine. I'm sorry, but I really do think that it makes me a bad owner... as I failed to prevent the situation. The way I see it, he's now my responsability and anything that happens to him I'm responsible for.Touche on the example of the car crashing the fence... I really don't know how what the dog's reaction would be, other than being scared as hell. I have to accept that things happen. However, that is an extreme example, and a statistic anomaly... SpikesPuppy, I've had many dogs before. I've had a dog stolen and never saw him again. And I know how heartbreaking it is when they get old or get sick beyond help... and when that happened I took the best decision for them, and I was there hugging them until their last breath. and I hope I'm there for Jefe as well. Dogs can live 10 years or more... humans live 70 or more... you do the math... your heart will break many times. That will pass.

No, I'm saying it a trainning problem, separation anxiety as you mentioned. Whether I think they are bad owners is not relevant to this. Installing a 10K fencing system deals with the simptom (running away), not the cause (separation anxiety, bitch in season, what ever it is). For the 100th time, is not about being bad owners, is about training.

Q1. None... loooooooooooooooong way to go. only eight months training in drive. but we'll get there. Not sure to which high levels you reffer to, but to me, If the dog doesn't run away, and respond on command, 100% realiability under the circumstances we have trained for, then that is the high level I want to take him. For example, I went to Bones Cafe this morning for the first time, and as the location was massive open space, hundred off leash dogs and kids running around, there were too many distractions, I decided to leave Jefe on leash, as I knew that he would not respond the same way he would do on rose hill park with other 5 dogs around. We are not reaady as a team for such environment, and we might never be ready for it. Q2. Only eight months! but I have owned dogs for over 20 years... and none of them had run away from home, and I never wandered why until eight months ago. Dog ownership requirements and liability issues around it are very different here in Australia compared to South America, and that forced me to seek help I've got to admit, Like most people I never bothered to read about dog behaviour before. It was only eight months ago when I was taught about dog drives and how to use them to train the dog, and BAM! it hit me in the face. So simple yet so effective. I've never had such great results on such a short time. and now I know why my dogs never ran away from home.

Thanks Dog Logics!, the way you explained it is alot better than mine. Freckles, I'm sorry if you or some other members take offence by my posts. Sad truth is that if the dog runs away when somebody opens the gate of the house, then the owner of that dog has failed to secure the dog properly, as they probably know that they dog would run away. And another sad truth is that some dogs you can find at dog rescues come from the pound... and some of those found their way to the pound because of owners that failed to secure their dog. Terrorbull. I don't need to own a beagle to know it would be hard work to train (like any other dog), and I don't need to own a beagle to know that training in drive would work. Training in drive works for any dog... for some dogs is prey drive, for others is food drive, etc... but it works a lot better than giving chesse treats to the dog when it drops on command (which btw, that is not training in food drive). And Yes, I train my dog on drive every night. It is heavy work, yet is not rocket science. Maybe you should give it a go, who knows, you might get better result training a beagle There is no need to make it a personal attack if you don't agree with what you read. That will not change my point of view. If you can present a reasonable argument (and again, I'm sorry but "Beagle" is not one) you might make a point, and then maybe i'll change my mind, but calling me tosser will not work, and you will continue to take offence on my posts. And FFS, I never mentioned poor ownership on my original post! (I did it later! ).Yes, I think that if your dog runs away is poor ownership, but mostly I believe is poor training, and that is what this thread is all about.

Well, if you choose to have a beagle, working dog, or a high drive dog, then yes, you have to train it in drive. I wonder how many police, customs, rescue dogs run away... also, I my point is that you should train your dog... further than sits, stays, etc... and YES, the way I see it, if your dog sits on command, but yet at the first oportunity it will run away, then yes, you are a bad owner because:1.- You have failed to secure the dog 2.- You have failed to satisfy the dog drives 3.- You have failed to train you dog properly It is called responsible dog ownership... if you can't train a beagle, then don't own one!

There is no need to be rude. which part of "Just kidding" don't you understand? Or appart from knowing nothing about dogs you don't know anything about English and good manners either? How do you train a beagle... never owned one. I Don't like them, but I guess you would train them same way as any other working dog: the dogs follows a scent, nothing happens, the dog follows a scent while in training he gest his reward.... so he learns that the rewards comes from you, not from following the scent... You need to find something that the dog really wants in order for this to work. I wonder how people train beagles, labs, or any other breed to do rescue or customs work, if those dogs are so untrainable or uncontrolable? It must be rocket science! Even better, black magic! The dog must get drive satisfaction from you, not from finding the source of the scent. Following the scent and finding the source is the way he will get drive satisfaction from YOU.

In a way you have... you have not fixed the garage door? or you have not taught the numbnut to close the door... Just kidding. Seriusly though. Somebody mentioned drives... and I think and agree that, if the dogs runs away wandering about is because: 1.- Drives are not being satisfied by the owners (presumably prey drive as this wandering about might be hunting behaviour), and 2.- Pack drive is not strong enough to make the dog want to stay at home, and 3.- Prey drive is stronger than pack drive. Also I have to consider sex drive... very strong one. This might not be an issue on neutered dogs? Boredom is explained by point 1 above. With exception of sex drive, all points are training issues, hence why I believe if the dog goes roaming is because of poor training. Just my thoughts.

Note, I don't have the perfect dog. And I'm sick of people that have a problem dog and believe nobody knows what they are going through. We do know how hard it is, either because of dealing with your dog, or because of our own problem dog... not Jefe though This is not about my dog. its just about why do you think dogs run away. No right or wrong answer.

No, I have a rotty now. before that I've had: Rotty x Dobe Dobe Cocker spaniel Cocker spaniel German S x German S Dalmatian. But I have made my opinion since I got Jefe. Not related to breed but based on dog reading (never read about dogs before). The reason why I travel is way beyond my understanding... not enough debt maybe? LOL. And dogs are not people. The same reasoning I don't believe could be applied.

This is comming from a different tread on the lost and found forums. Maybe I was out of line and was too harsh on the owners, but I honestly believe that if a dog runs away is because there is a training problem, and that is that the dog does not have enough reasons to stay at home and/or its drives are not being satisfied. *** moved from Lost and Found ***** First and foremost you must remember that you are living with an animal, and although is not a wild animal, all its behaviour its dictated by thousands of years of evolution. If your dog barks to other people or other dogs while you are walking it, you have a training problem. If your dog is territorial with its toys, you have a training problem. If the dog runs away, you have a training problem. The way I see it, If I don't mind another dog or person when walking my dog, why would he? the toys are MY toys, and I allow him play with me and my toys when I want and I say so, not before, not after... and the dog will not leave the house if I don't say so. Just my thoughts. You might think this is offensive to you, or that this is a lot of shit, fair enough, I'm entitled to have my own ideas, and so are you... and so is the dog (not according to me though). *** end moved from Lost and Found ***** What do you guys and girls think? Why do dogs try to escape? (other explanation than because dogs are dogs, that is not good enough). Why after all the escape proof fencing, etc, etc do they keep trying to go away? Edit: some spelling (thanks terrorbull) Edit 2: Move content

Just for the record, and not only because he's our dog, jefe was in full drive in that picture and waiting for platz! command... and he's gorgeous! I do have a photo of him looking at the camera, with my wife resting on his belly, and with the flashy red eyes he does look like the dog from the omen! Edit: Added photo

And then they will go after prong collars..... bastards.... they should start at the vets that sell check chains and haltis.... those are far more damaging to the dogs than other training tools

Congratulations to all the winners and participants. Thanks... gotta love jefe in focus...

LOL... I don't know about nerves, but Jefe reacts a lot to my guitar playing... and my guitar playing is not bad at all seriously though, he reacts a lot to noises, he jumps into ready to fly/kill position (depends of the noise) yet he does not go hiding... but he does not investigate either... his head goes back into his bed and back to sleep... I don't think he's got nerves problem

A dog that will drop the pray when asked to... Yes, it was a Sch video! there it was I saw it!... no, not training for Schutzhund... Although I'd love to, I don't think Jefe is made for it... I don't think he's got the required drive, nor temperament for it. Also, I think he's not young enough for Sch training. But I wouldn't mind having such an obedient dog... Maybe the next rotti Yes, it gives back the item, but not quick enough. I used to be able to take it from him... now he's bitting harder. Although I enjoy playing tug... and the truth to be told, I'm not sure if I want him dropping the item when he feels like it but when I order him. Same as when teaching the recall, which is, I give the 'Here' command and he comes, I want him to drop the prey when I order 'Out'. I could use 'Leave it', but I don't want to because that;s my command for 'I don't like you doing that, stop it'. I like him bitting the item, that's why I want a different command. K9: you can create a mouthy dog, a high percentage of dogs will get mouthy if force is used here... What you will do is knock the dog out of drive though, which isnt desireable, it doesnt leave the dog clear headed. I know this... that's why I want to learn a positive method for teaching this.

I thougt it would be contradictory as well, but as with any other drive command, he's supposed to drop the prey when I want, not when he feels like it... yet again, the dog must feel confortable enough to drop the item, that is, that he did not do anything wrong and that if I allow him, he can have it again... and then the contradiction is gone...

What I want is create a 'In drive' command, not a compliance command such as drop or 'leave it' (that's the command I use when another dog, person is approaching, or if he's got something on his mouth, basically that;s my command for 'I don't like you doing that, stop it'). The idea behind this 'in drive' command is twofold: Have a command for dropping the prey item, but as I don't dislike biting the prey item, I want him to know that "is ok to bite it, but is mine so is going out of your mouth now". So the dog can be ready to bite again when told or given the prey item. In a worst case scenario, have a command that he will obey under drive, say, a small dog on his mouth, although I doubt this could happen. I don't let strange dogs come close to him. Unlike regular obedience commands, that are not performed when the dog is full in drive... say chasing other dog. Have you tried calling your dog in that situation? How far on the drive in training? past the drive building stage, past helicopter turns, past building focus (Gotta love Jefe in focus!), we are now slowly adding distraction, to make even more focus.... Note: We dropped the helicopter turns, now we run, play tug and hug while in drive. He likes spending time with us while in high drive, and our aim is that we are the best thing for him even high on drive, so he will always come when recalled. The way I see it, there are obedience compliancy commands, and drive compliancy commands.

While training in drive, how do you teach the 'OUT'? I've seen a method by Bernhard Flinks which is, when the dog is not looking, issue the command and then pull a full grip of the dog's coat, which will cause very intense pain on the dog, causing hig to drop the ball. A bit cruel maybe? any more positive methods? Also, when the dog knows the command, yet it doesn't drop the prey, they use a prong collar to heavily pull the leash, read a VERY STRONG correction, one I hope I never have to give my dog,.. yet what I have learned so far, when training in drive the prong is on but there is no leash connected to it, and the leash is connected to the flat collar. Again, how do you use a more positive method?