Jeff Jones

Thanks for the heads up Herr Rottweiler. Email sent.

That is correct the first couple should be done by late next month, the others will be a few months away. The results will be posted as soon as all of them are available.

Yeh, those dogs belong to the Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale (GIGN) their main purpose is Counter Terrorism and Hostage Response missions. You can read up on them via this link http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/F...IGN/default.htm I have not seen one in person trained as a personal protection / police dog but many European country's have dabbled in the use of various different breeds as police / personal protection dogs over the years including the weims, labradors and giant schnauzers to name a few. Most Europeans country's are now using Belgian / Dutch Shepherds.

Hi cosmolo, here is a brief explanation. It does have a small bearing on the situation as the dog will be responding to a threat based on Auditory – Olfactory – Tactile – and Visual stimulants, I asked for people to nominate their dogs who they believe will act in protection of the handler when the handler is threatened to complete the assessment. The type of aggression that would force a dog to react in that situation alone would not be a safe type to work the dog in. I would be concerned for any dogs mental stability if it were to only show aggression due to the scent picture it is receiving from the handler when its other senses are being stimulated by a trained and experienced decoy. I have to head off to work and will clarify any info later on.

If a random sample of three changes anyone's opinion I'd be questioning their judgement. And I'm here all week if people wish to learn more about dog behaviour. The point is it will not matter how many dogs we end up testing, the results will still be the same. Kinda like testing three people who think the moon is made of cheese and applying it to the entire population. Instead we will be basing the results on fact not fiction. The results of the dogs being tested could cross over to any dog. It does not matter what breed age or sex it is. if you want to prove me wrong and the trainers doing the evaluation / assessments wrong, do so on your own back after the results come out. I am sure the trainers doing the evaluation and assessments would be extremely interested to hear your judgment which will be based on the years of experience, common sense and intelligence that you so clearly display.

If a random sample of three changes anyone's opinion I'd be questioning their judgement. And I'm here all week if people wish to learn more about dog behaviour. The point is it will not matter how many dogs we end up testing, the results will still be the same.

Whilst I do not believe the evaluations that will be done will change every ones opinion on dogs protecting people, it will clear up some misconceptions for some people on the forum and will give the people getting their dogs tested a greater understanding on their dog’s behaviour. I will not go in to too much more detail before the evaluations are done but some people are going along the right path with their comments in this thread. Please keep thinking and voicing your opinions though as it is no doubt helping people learn more about dog behaviour. Any misconceptions should be cleared up after the evaluations are complete.

That is correct Poodlefan. The cue can be verbal or via contact with the handler, the response by the handler to the contact being made is the most important cue. This way nothing is left up to the dog to interpret what is real and what isn't it is a trained response to the handlers reaction. So theoretically, what would happen if a handler was incapacitated before cueing the dog to engage? Would the dog go to the handlers assistance uncued? [Lets forget about the dogs that have a go at the handler ] If I am unable to verbally cue my dog because I have been assaulted and fall to the ground I train the dog to engage the person who just assaulted me. This is a standard exercise done by most departments who use police / protection dogs. The usual scenario trained is you have your dog in a down stay some meters away from a suspect you are going over to talk to / search, all of a sudden the suspect attacks you and you fall to the ground without saying a word and your dog engages the person. So again the dog is not "deciding" but reacting to already trained (in this case non-verbal) cues. Correct. Unless cued a protection dog should be trained not to engage.

That is correct Poodlefan. The cue can be verbal or via contact with the handler, the response by the handler to the contact being made is the most important cue. This way nothing is left up to the dog to interpret what is real and what isn't it is a trained response to the handlers reaction. So theoretically, what would happen if a handler was incapacitated before cueing the dog to engage? Would the dog go to the handlers assistance uncued? [Lets forget about the dogs that have a go at the handler ] If I am unable to verbally cue my dog because I have been assaulted and fall to the ground I train the dog to engage the person who just assaulted me. This is a standard exercise done by most departments who use police / protection dogs. The usual scenario trained is you have your dog in a down stay some meters away from a suspect you are going over to talk to / search, all of a sudden the suspect attacks you and you fall to the ground without saying a word and your dog engages the person. ETA: there are more scenarios and situations trained for but this is a standard one between all departments.

That is correct Poodlefan. The cue can be verbal or via contact with the handler, the response by the handler to the contact being made is the most important cue. This way it is not left up to the dog to interpret what is real and what isn't, it is a trained response to the handlers reaction.

I have a feeling Junior would do just fine in a similar evaluation.

I'm not going to take my dog along because I do not live in Sydney. I'm also not going to take my dog along because: (a) You refuse to specify what the tests involve. (b) I do not want to ruin my dog. I would implore anyone who doesn't want to risk ruining their dog to also decline. Further, a random sample of three won't produce results that are statistically significant so it's not going to prove anything, but hey, go ahead and knock yourself out at the potential expense of others. If I wanted the results of the evaluation to be tainted and leave people with a bad experience from this exercise I would not be using independent dog trainers to complete the evaluation. I would simply do it myself, that way I could guarantee the results of the test are bias as I could make it so none of the dogs react and the scenarios are not appropriate for the dog and situation. Instead I am going to the expense of using professional and experienced dog trainers, the 2 people who are willing to travel to Sydney will be getting their dogs evaluated and tested by K9 Force. This is a good opportunity for them to have their dogs evaluated and tested by one of Australia’s leading dog trainers. For the last time, no one is being forced to be involved in these exercises and as you suggest they can withdraw. For the 4 people involved (2 people wish to remain anonymous) and the other members on this forum following this thread it will be a great learning opportunity.

rhapsodical78 as has been mentioned before, the testing will not be done by me...the testing will be done by independent and experienced dog trainers, they will obviously be evaluating your dog before any scenarios / testing takes place. I am not holding a gun to any ones head and forcing them to take there dog to these trainers free of charge for an assessment...if you do not think your dog can handle the test you did not have to pm me and you do not have to take your dog along to the trainer. I have not agreed to test any dog that someone has mentioned is weak nerved, there dog is not taking part in the test...it is a voluntary exercise the people involved can pull out at any time, they will not be the ones out of pocket, I will. If the trainers believe the dogs are not suitable to be tested...then they will not be... I am not going to continue to argue with you about something you have zero experience in. The results of the tests will be posted after all of them have been completed including what scenarios were involved. I will respond to the other questions in this thread when I have more time as I have to head off to work shortly.

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

I have another person down they wish to remain anonymous. So far we will be testing two separate breeds of dog that belong to the the herding / working dog categories. It would be good if we could get a completely different breed of dog for some variety.

The testing will be done by an independent and experienced protection dog trainer. The same / similar tests are conducted by many of the state police / armed forces and protection dog trainers as to the suitability and capability of the dogs before training is commenced. If you do not think your dog is capable of being tested...do not pm me, the challenge was put down so people get an idea of whether there dog is actually protecting them and whether it has the ability to do so. Your dogs will be pushed and evaluated during the testing as they would be if a similar situation was to occur on the street. You will be in consultation with an experienced trainer during the exercise and can raise any concerns you have with them. I will not be the person doing the testing. If you do not want your dog tested and you do not believe it is of the right temperament to be tested...do not get it tested...

Received pm Akayla is the first one on the list. Note if you do not want your name mentioned as one of the people listed down as having your dog tested pm me. I will still post your dogs results including breed sex and age.

Yes Akayla, as long as you can get your dog to the location of a trainer in Sydney NSW for an assessment? pm me if you are willing your dogs breed sex and age. Cheers one position down 2 to go.

Thanks Tony, now the fun begins. Note: your dogs will be tested in various scenarios but the most important testing will relate to whether your dog is actually protecting you or not

I dare say after years of training various dogs for law enforcement – personal protection and schutzhund I am in a better position than you or anyone else commenting in this thread to give an accurate prediction on dog behaviour and training / personal protection dogs. What is the point on having a dog that might take action in a dangerous situation? If having nfi of what or how your dog will react when you are placed in a dangerous situation is your goal by all means walk around with a dog in the false reality hoping / feeling / relying / that your dog may protect you. Some dogs may step up to the plate initially but when the game becomes serious all of a sudden the dog will shutdown. Having a dog that does half the job in this situation is no good. I never said training was the be all and end all. But training helps you get to the desired goal, testing the dog under realistic scenarios. You cannot say an untrained protection dog is going to have the same capability as a trained protection dog. It is up to you and the decoy to make it feel as real as possible so the dog believes it is the real thing. It is the same as running a mock Search and Rescue exercise / obedience trial / tracking trial these are all “FABRICATED” events but they are done to assist in the training and development of the dog and handler. These events are done as realistic as possible to test the dog under similar conditions that they will face in real life situations. If any member of DOL has one of these amazing dogs that they believe will “step up to the plate” and protect you when required feel free to contact me and I will get an independent and experienced protection dog trainer to give an accurate assessment of your dog and its capability through various scenarios. I will pay for 3 members of DOL who contact me to get this done and we will get the trainers assessment of your dog posted on DOL...obviously any dog with previous protection training is excluded. The only conditions are, I choose the dog trainer - and you are responsible for transporting the dog to the trainers location(if required) And I may decide to write / create the scenarios your dog gets tested under. Note:Due to work commitments this offer is only valid for one week and expires on the 20th of September 2009. If you want to be considered pm me your location your dogs breed, sex and age and I will contact a suitable trainer about an assessment date and time and get back to you. Feel free to "step up to the plate" . Just don't be surprised if your dog "shutsdown".

Steve, what do you think is the likelihood of a Maremma protecting its owner if the situation required it? How anyone would be able to give an accurate answer to this question is beyond me. There are too many variables it is not something you can give a blanket answer to. Rather than having someone say “I think” the dog will protect, you need them to say “I know” how the dog will react, you can only get this knowledge through training and working your dog. There are several experienced and professional protection dog trainers on this forum alone who will be able to give you an accurate assessment from someone who is not looking at your dog through rose coloured glasses. Contact people on the forum such as Nekhbet – K9 Force – Herr Rottweiler or Brad Griggs. These are people who train dogs in protection roles on a regular occurrence for people who have had to rely on their dog in various situations and environments. They do not simply tell people to buy a certain breed of dog hoping the dog is able to distinguish between different threats and act accordingly with a controlled and adequate response. Even with the best bred working dog and regardless of breed a good decoy manipulates the dog slowly to work in and show different forms of aggression at the correct time and in the correct amounts in many different environments. This is done because if too much pressure is applied and in the wrong amounts you will “shutdown” the dog. People who think there dog will protect them in any and every situation that may occur will only be setting their dogs up to fail, the environmental and situational pressure will become too much for you and your dog too handle and you will both “shutdown”.

I do not recall anyone saying that you can train any dog to be a personal protection dog nor did I or any of the posts I have read imply you could, obviously you need a dog that possesses the correct temperament and drives to commence training. A breed of dog where these traits are purposefully being bred in to is obviously going to give you a greater chance of finding, selecting and developing a dog with the ability to commence personal protection training than one that is not. The only way to guarantee your dog reacts as desired is to commence training with your dog which is why I said you should contact a proven and experienced trainer, the first thing any personal protection dog trainer should do is assess your suitability for owning / training / handling a personal protection dog and then they should assess whether your dog has the desired drives and temperament to commence training. You want your personal protection dog to help you control the situation you are in which is why you need to undergo regular training, with an untrained dog you will not be able to effectively control your dog which means it will not offer you any reliable assistance. How can you rely on your dog for protection in most situations when you cannot control your dog and you do not know how it will react? Through regular training you have a good idea of what you and your dog are capable of and you gain experience with how to appropriately handle and direct your dog. It is no good assuming you and your dog will be able to handle the situation when the time comes.

If someone wants a reliable protection dog they should get a dog properly trained as a personal protection dog from a proven and experienced trainer. I do not advise anyone regardless of the breed of dog to expect the dog to naturally protect them in most situations. A dog that is trained in various situations on what to do VS an untrained dog going from natural instincts will offer you better protection. It would be like me walking on to a farm with my untrained Belgian Shepherd and expecting him to herd up the sheep. He may chase the sheep around and look like he knows what he is doing to the untrained eye but in reality he would not be completing the correct task, and it would be wrong of me to rely on him to complete the task as effectively as a trained dog. A properly trained protection dog goes through years of training and proofing in many different situations and environments which enables you to assess and know your dog’s ability as to what trained/controlled response your dog is capable of. You cannot rely on an untrained dog to be able to offer you the same level of protection as a trained dog regardless of breed. Corrected some typos...

I agree, I do not know why people with an untrained dog expect it to give a trained response. To have a dog trained in personal protection to a level where the dog will protect you against most threats takes years of training and development.

Is that a case of ;)