sandgrubber

I'm surely not sober enough, and may not be intelligent enough, to put everything that's going on in this thread together. A few key points: Some parts of the RSPCA are being pretty whacky about pedigree vs. X-breed Definitive objective data are not available and the best data available are hard to interpret. In my experience, organisations are pretty quick to bin letters that are clearly adaptations of a 'form' letter. .. .but that may not be true of all organisations and may have been worked out by the relevant persons in this case. the RSPCA are in a position to gain sympathy because there are some shonky pedigree breeders out there . . . and some of them think they're doing the right thing and think they are acting in the best interests of 'the breed'. I'd say if you have thoughts, it's probably better to write them out yourself rather than send a form letter . . . if you feel strong enough to do so. . . .or take the form letter and hack it so that it clearly represents your personal opinion.

Hey guys . . .please read and contribute to the 'Studies About Dogs' thread in pinned thread section of thethe 'General' forum. There have been some great things written about dog topics (behaviour, breeding, health, diet, etc.) and many of the key findings are published online in some form another. Some great articles have been posted to date. I'd hope to see more come up . .. and people looking to this thread when they want well-researched articles.

Our breed standard calls for bidability Traditional job: retrieval of shot game, often in wet conditions, or before that, pulling in of fishing nets in very cold, rough waters. I've had some dogs that are gung-ho. I've had some dogs that won't quit. I've had some dogs that are keen on everything (ie, game in the 'I'm game' sense). I've had some dogs that are real athletes. I've had some dogs that have emotional IQ's that would fit in the top 5% if they were matched against humans. I've had some dogs who were faithful to a fault. I've had dogs that love water and have to be controlled lest they commit suicide by swimming into ice flows in a frozen river during spring break up. I am still confused about which are 'game'. I don't mean to be flippant by suggesting a 'game' litter. I just find the definitions put forward on this thread are all over the place. Perhaps it's better to say 'exceptional' rather than 'game' to avoid confusion.

BSL is deeply linked to dog fighting and social aversion to it. I have never seen a deliberate dog fight, and hate the whole idea. I am so disgusted by it that it may blind me to the details. Every time there's a epidemic of dog thefts, someone mentions the fear that dogs are being stolen as 'bait' for a dog fighting ring. Is this total paranoia? Would real dog fighters steal dogs that are incompetent fighters to train fighting dogs? Or would they be more inclined to go for SBT's and other dogs that have a 'fighting' chance? Or would different people have diferent tactics for training their dogs? I cannot see how it would help prep a dog for a good fight to set it against a dog it can bring down and kill without really trying. My guess is people are stealing dogs to resell them or breed them and resell the pups. (Inspired by the latest 'dogs going missing' report on the general forum)

Not sure if this would work . . . I'm from WA and don't know how things work over your way. But could you ask someone to report the dog, claim it's a cross or an 'unknown' bought from a petshop, and get a NOI, and end out getting a breed assessment done? Note, I'm not advocating falsifying the breed. I've seen some pet shop Labradors that definitely aren't Labradors, and some pet shop cross breeds that were supposed to be small dogs and ended up waist high. I think you have an honest case for saying the breed is uncertain.

That was nasty and not very balanced. I try to base my opinions on solid evidence. I've been asking for numbers. Please give some indication of where the CDC statistics to which you refer can be found. I started this thread cause the anti-BSL people had been saying look at the CDC numbers. I found some numbers on the CDC website . . . those from Sachs et al. They didn't look good for the pit bull or rotti. fyi: I do not generally favor BDL or BSL , though until the present BSL situation is resolved, I support import restrictions on breeds that I think will make an existing situation worse. If, as it sounds from other people's posts, the dog fighters are using dogos and filas to come up with bigger, stronger fighting dogs, we don't need it. People wanting a good pig dog or guard dog have plenty of options as it is. I agree that BSL doesn't work well and ends out causing the deaths of many good, lovely, dogs, and heartbreak for their owners. I think those working to end BSL need to be honest in recognising problems in getting some individuals/booodlines within their breed to fit into society, and, to the extent that those problems are being perpetuated and made worse by a small group of people who love blood sport, I think breed fanciers need to come down on the group in question. As a Labrador breeder, there is no way I'm going to be able to approach a dog fighter as a 'peer'. As an APBT fancier, perhaps one who owns some awesome dogs, and who can talk credibly about bloodlines in the breed, people like you may have a chance. Attacking and vilifying people who ask honest questions is a good way to turn the undecided against the APBT.

My guess is we will continue to disagree. . . that's fine. I don't place a lot of weight in "I know someone who knows someone" sort of evidence. But, apart from having lived in Brasil and met a few Filas (at a distance) I can claim no expertise here . . . other than trying to read and seeking what appear to be balanced sources. Here's my source on the Dogo http://www.bulldoginformation.com/dogo-argentino.html . . . I'd guess it's fairly neutral. I've lived in Brazil, and have enountered Filas in the flesh . . . but only at a distance, and have done a fair amount of reading on Fila websites. I btw, if you want to evaluate the source you might like to read the APBT description on www.bulldoginformation.com . . . I'd say it's a sympathetic but realistic . . . I don't think I said the Dogo was used for fighting . . . but that the creator of the breed had fighting in mind. My sources agree with you . . . it's primary use is for dangerous game, particularly wild boar. The Fila is used more as a guard dog from what I saw in Brazil, but they say it's also used to protect cattle from jaguars and was at one time used to track runaway slaves.

posted twice ... DOLF and Mozilla aren't getting along. Sorry.

I thought it was four foot drive.

The US is a large and diverse place that encourages freedom of speech. So it's likely that there are some misinformed people who think boxers are related to pit bulls. Ok .. . long ago . . . through the common ancestral wolf genes. But Chihuahuas and Newfoundlands are also related to APBTs . . . and to boxers . . . and to the whole kit and kaboodle As for the numbers, I think we're missing connection. I, and others who have made an honest attempt to form an opinon on BSL (btw, what is BDL?) and found what numbers we can. 'The numbers' we find when we look around are far from perfect for reasons that are widely and prominently advertised. They are imperfect goods, but they are goods. And time and again they suggest breed-specific problems. Your turn. Please find some numbers; fine if data are rough and have to include caveats. Anything concrete that shows that bull breeds are no more problematic than other breeds would be of great help to those of us who are, at heart, against BSL, but find a lot of evidence saying some breeds are a problem.

My guess is this story is shifting sand. My gut feeling is that there have been multiple domestication events . .. there is no wolf bitch Eve, but many wolves that have gotten closer to many populations of people and become domesticated to some extent. From what I know of anthropology, wolf-dogs started hooking up with hunter-gatherers -- as scavengers who removed waste and provided an alarm system -- long before the farming civilisations of the fertile crescent came to be. The genetics on this one will be messy, because dogs/wolves are so amazing in their ability to interbreed.

Pathetically weak. Is there anything in Australia that goes even that far?

Great story! Good on the Police for not shooting first and asking questions after.

See posting on In the News. Winston went to court and spent a week in the clinker. But he's out on good behaviour. And I wonder what will happen to the dog..............I hope he survives the 6 month probation period

We live in a kennel zone and carry a 50 dog license. We pay $15/dog for the license. We are not required to register resident dogs.

The discussion of forum moderation leaves me curious to know if people use the Report button. Probably better not to replay the circumstances under which you used it . . . no need to reopen old wounds.

Reminds me of a tiny little filler article in a local paper I saw a long time ago. Simply reported the costs of re-upholstering the police car after some kids let a skunk loose inside of it. If you've ever smelled skunk close up you'll appreciate this as droll Yankee humor. Sometimes a hundred words can convey more than a video.

Interesting you claim APBT, SBT, BTx and ASBT (whatever they are but it proves my point) are one and the same, so do I (except for BTx). In other jurisdictions so is the Boxer and any shorthaired muscular looking dog, as is the AmBulldog. I agree apples and pears is a poor comparison, chalk and cheese much better. Interesting how you misinterpret my words and think anyone has proven any point. I went up a step in the Linnean system and aggregated species into genus. I can imagine places where similar use of aggregation might aggregate Homo sapiens, H. erectus, and the the Austrailopithocenes (H something-or-other) . . or go up another notch and class us together with the chimps and gorillas to say something about some primate group. That is not to say there is no difference between us and our ancestral species or taxonomic cousings . . . or that there's no difference between an apple, a pear, and a nashi pear. Just to say we're part of a larger group stemming from a common origin -- as are apples and pears. Chalk and cheese do not share common ancestry, so far as I know. As to dogs . . . the boxer originates the Mastiff group and does not fall in the same branch of the family tree as the bull terriers. Dog family trees get messy, cause in theory, all of them can interbreed. More basically, to quote Bill Gates: "Show me the numbers." If the available data are poor, tell me where I can find better. Saying the CDC never concluded there were breed specific problems is not satisfactory. Maybe the CDC was under pressure of some sort that prevented them from taking a position. Every data set I come across points to a problem.

Actually, the Doggo is a breed largely created by one person and he had fighting in mind. I can't speak to 'all Doggos', but I think some of them still have quite a bit of fight left in them. As for the fila, it's a breed I'm glad is banned. So long as the breed standard calls for extreme hostility toward strangers, which should be shown at an early age, and specifies that the dog should not be faulted for biting the judge at a dog show, I think the breed has no place in Australia. It's guarding function also included tracking down runaway slaves in the old days. Kidnapping of children for money is big business in Latin America, and there's a role for fierce guard dogs. Not here. (To verify, try Google and go for official breed sites and major breeder websites).

Thinking about this thread, some day I think I'll have a 'game' litter . . . and name the pups things like Monopoly, Tiddly Winks, Black Jack, and Two Card Stud.

Many years ago when I lived in New Hampshire (USA) they busted a local town cop, a deeply unpopular bloke with a miserable life story, for shooting pets in New Hampshire, cutting off their ears, and collecting on the bounty on feral dogs in Vermont (the next state over). There are some sick and sad people out there; there always are. The bloke, btw. wasn't arrested. He was demoted. But because he was the one and only town cop in his town, the demotion didn't mean much.

Sorry to be petty, but 'amounts of dogs'? Please. Numbers of dogs. Dogs are counted as individuals, not measured by the kilo. If Labbies and Goldies seem to be targeted, it's likely that they're doing resale, especially if pups are being taken. I can't imagine using breeds that won't be a good fight being targeted for 'bait' in the fighting ring.

If I find the data messy and can't separate apples from pears, I go to the category 'pom fruit' or Roseaceae -- something that encompasses both apples and pears. Likewise, if there are real problems separating SBT, ASBT, APBT and BTX's, the normal way to deal with ambiguity is to move to something like 'bull breeds'. If this is done, the results will still look bad. Try that with the NSW dog attack data . . . the bull breeds are in big trouble. Yah, yah, yah . .. the APBT barely makes a showing in the years since BSL appeared in NSW; that's probably because a ranger who reported an APBT attack would immediately be pilloried by a 'boss' for improperly managing a restricted beed, so it's easier to say 'bull terrier or bull terrier cross'. In my observations, in Australia, in Europe and the US, the bull terrier group has a wide range of temperaments. I love the 'good' Staffies and have met some very loveable APBT's and ASBTs. In the broad sweep of things, I think bull terrier folk need to knuckle down and push people into breeding out aggression. Instead I see them attacking people who hold up the best available data and implying they are Nazis and saying that the best available data are rubbish. If you don't like Sachs et al, please let us know where better data are to be found, or even, what methodology you'd recommend, given the great confusion that 95+% of the population has distinguishing the various bull breeds, to come up with more accurate data, and the immense difficulty of coming out with accurate breed identification at a state or national level.

I brush my dogs teath daily by giving them bones to chew on. The vets regularly comment on how good my dogs teeth look. I think dog tooth brushing is a big rip off. If they eat even semi-naturally their teeth stay good.

I allow and encourage 'drop in' inspections, but try to steer them toward less busy periods of the day when the kennel will be open and attended. . . ie, not the middle of a feeding cycle or bath time.