sandgrubber

I don't think the ANKC is sufficiently mercenary to understand what it takes in its $$ from to look after it's broader consitituency . . . nor do I think it is sufficiently tight in organisation to take on a political bun fight. Pedigree breeders need an institution to track and validate pedigrees and to support competitions that promote excellence in dog performance along working, obedience, or clever play (dancing with dogs) standards. I think you'll be disappointed if you ask the ANCK to step up to the plate in a BSL-related legal dispute. The dog breeding member in my extended family heartily agrees with you and argues thus --hence my comment earlier of the ultimate betrayal-- Surely it is not too much to ask that all dogs be represented, is it, in fact take that further to the argument that had ANKC from its instigation grown to be the custodian for ALL dogs no matter the breed and just managed show competition as ONE of their many functions with parity for all functions and levels of registration,they might have prevented the introduction of ANY BSL in Australia. It seems they have been too parochial and timid to take on the RSPCA headed by Wirth.

Personally, so long as the breed standard . . . or the bloodline standard . . . considers HA or DA to be a good thing . . . even if DA is called 'gameness' . . . I think there's a social justificaiton for BSL. I could see BSL directed toward breeds honed for aggression to other animals as well . . . that is, if greys tend to be bred to bring down cats and SWF's, I think there's reason to require that they are muzzled. But, in the case of the grey, there needs to be a way to take the muzzle off for the individual dog who has low prey drive and who curls up with the puss, rather than disemboweling it.o

Sorry to sound like a broken record (or do people even know what that means these days), but I think BSL is justified and good when the standards for the breed and the image cultivated by its owners is unsocial. I think BSL is unjust for the APBT, and even more unjust if the APBT image is reflected onto the ASBT. On the other hand, I'm glad we are worrying about 20 kg dogs that are sometimes bred to be bad, rather than 50 kg dogs that are sometimes bred to be bad. I wish the APBT community was doing a better job of getting their dog onto toilet paper adds and projecting the RCA Victor label and reducing the frequency of 'pitt bull eats child's testicles' sort of news. AND I'm glad that there are import prohibitions on some of the big, extremely protective, strong Mastiff-type dogs (eg, the Fila Brasiliero). It's not ok for the breeders to cull pups cause they are insufficiently aggressive to strangers at 12 weeks . . . it's not ok for specialty shows to say it's ok for the dog to bite the judge. I agree. The fact that present BSL law is entirely based around breed label means that every case comes down to...'.Is this dog one of those restricted under current law... or not?' So what gets into the courtroom, are ideas about dogs. But nothing about individual dogs behaving in ways that would endanger the community...or not. Or owner neglect or irresponsibility in setting dogs up to be a danger. The tragedy is that once BSL comes into the law, everything then hedges on ideas & even stereotypes about dog breeds. The fact that Tango has proven over time to be a harmless family pet, is totally irrelevant in the courtroom. All law exists to protect people, not to protect someone's ideas. But what has been found to protect people re managing dogs (from science & case studies) , doesn't come down to waving a breed label &/or having stereotypical ideas about dog breeds. So the current BSL laws are not protecting people, they only lead to fighting over ideas. What would protect people, is getting serious about current dog management laws that insist on registration, containment, leash control in public etc.

Sorry to sound like a worn out record, but I think BSL is justified and good when the standards for the breed and the image cultivated by its owners is unsocial. I think BSL is unjust for the APBT, and even more unjust if the APBT image is reflected onto the ASBT. On the other hand, I'm glad we are worrying about 20 kg dogs that are sometimes bred to be bad, rather than 50 kg dogs that are sometimes bred to be bad. It's both the BREEDING and the deed that are of concern. When, as with the Fila, the breed standard says the pup is supposed to snarl at unknown people by 12 weeks and it's ok if a dog bites the judge at a dog show, I'd say 'good thing these guys aren't allowed into Oz'. I wish the APBT community was doing a better job of getting their dog onto toilet paper adds and projecting the RCA Victor label and reducing the frequency of 'pitt bull eats child's testicles' sort of news. If the breed label isn't a good predictor of behavior, I wouldn't be breeding Labradors . . . and I think most pedigree breeders wouldn't be breeding the breed they fancy. I agree. The fact that present BSL law is entirely based around breed label means that every case comes down to...'.Is this dog one of those restricted under current law... or not?' So what gets into the courtroom, are ideas about dogs. But nothing about individual dogs behaving in ways that would endanger the community...or not. Or owner neglect or irresponsibility in setting dogs up to be a danger. The tragedy is that once BSL comes into the law, everything then hedges on ideas & even stereotypes about dog breeds. The fact that Tango has proven over time to be a harmless family pet, is totally irrelevant in the courtroom. All law exists to protect people, not to protect someone's ideas. But what has been found to protect people re managing dogs (from science & case studies) , doesn't come down to waving a breed label &/or having stereotypical ideas about dog breeds. So the current BSL laws are not protecting people, they only lead to fighting over ideas. What would protect people, is getting serious about current dog management laws that insist on registration, containment, leash control in public etc.

It is upsetting when bad news comes from the blue. You need to verify that the 'bad news' isn't, in fact, a result of an incompetent job of x-raying . . . which can and does happen. If it is real, then you have to deal with it responsibly. As lots of people will tell you, some dogs with rotten hip scores lead very healthy lives and show no sign of being dysplasic. But if the scores are bad, forget stud work. Good luck. Let us know what Dr Wyburn says. Pay attention to his notes about the quality of the X-ray.

Wild thought, not reasoned and researched response. 1. It can happen out of the blue and some dogs who should be fine are radiologically HD. 2. Bad positioning can cause apparent HD where there is none. 3. How bad is it? Some dogs with bad scores get through life with no consequences . . . probably best life as a neuter . . . important to keep them lean and with muscle tone.

In most circumstances, you can't be sued for libel if what you reveal is in the public interest and factually correct. I'd say, check first. Is there documentation? Is the buyer telling the whole truth, etc. If it's as bad as it sounds: name and shame. The breeder in question is acting unethically, and deserves a figurative kick in the nuts, descended or not, or absent cause the breeder is more of a bitch than a dog.

Interesting. But extremely frustrating. Hard to know what is being said and what research evidence stands behind the apparent conclusions. Not a big fan of power point presentations unless extensive notes are attached. I think a lot of people chime in on this subject following the general sense of discussion of human body weight. Yes, all of us would like to be slim and muscular and only a minority of us are. I'm also struck by how often professional athletes are forced to retire at an early age due to injury or illness. Only a small fraction of all dogs in wealthy countries will come close to living as working dogs. It's easy to chime in on the 'keep 'em skinny' bandwagon. It's pretty hard to come to a fact-based conclusion about how rounded vs. slim affects the health of a dog in later life -- apart from dogs who have bad joints, in which case I am entirely convinced of the value of keeping a dog lean.

Monthly tabs are so easy . . . and my vet says you can get away with every other month cause that's often enough to disrupt the lifecycle of the heartworm. This makes them relatively very cheap. My dogs love Heartgard. People say there are risks with the annual injection. So why bother with it.

That's why they call them bitches. Not 'normal' . . . but not abnormal. Prog can be both touch and go and stop and go. Don't be surprised if you bring her back in a few days later and you get a 17.

If Dante is entire and is ever used at stud, I'd suggest naming a pup Inferno

I am sure you know this so I'm not sure why you're asking the question but labradors were originally water dogs bred in Newfoundland to retrieve fishing nets from boats. This is partly why they are built the way they are. Well sprung ribs for buoyancy (that famous barrel shape which means that the maximum amount of lung is above the water) and a short coupled, powerful body for swimming and pulling. This background was behind the first post in this thread. A dog pulling in fishing nets in the Bay of Fundy (water temperature often near 0, lots of wind) is facing the same challenges as marine mammals -- all of which pack on blubber when they can. I'm not saying blubber is good. But I think the tendency to pack it on is intrensic to Labbies. In my personal opinion, a dog with sound bone structure can pack on a bit of extra weight -- I don't mean get obese . . . but not show great concavity behind the ribcage -- without much harm, and it doesn't bother me to see a Lab who is a little cuddly. I've seen some pet Labs who don't look look fit for the catwalk, so to speak, live to 14+ years and keep good health. Sometimes I think that people who have difficulty staying slim themselves take it out on their dogs. It's a different matter, entirely, if hips and elbows are bad. One girl I bred -- stunning girl, sweet nature -- Xrayed bad . .. elbows in the 3,3 range. I sold her as a pet on condition that they keep her weight down and stay in consultation with a vet. She got fat. She almost stopped moving. I pointed out to the that their dog was so placid cause she was in pain. Good people. They took her to a good vet who gave them a stern lecture. Next time I saw her she was 12 kg lighter, looking marvelous, and moving like a young dog again. She's now six, energetic, no limp whatsoever. . . and 27 kg (huge bone, big rib cage). Likely she'll have problems as she becomes really old. But severe dieting has allowed her to enjoy her young years. As for what sort of cover for the working Lab . .. I think the word is versatile. No one hunts here these days . . . but in the traditional UK setting, I think the Lord would want a heavy dog for thick cover . . . often a Lab . . . and some lighter dogs who were faster on the chase over open ground . . . could also be Labs. The little bitch was valued as well as the extreme heavy set dog. From what I've read, we have a range of Lab types because it's good, with a group of working dogs, to have a range.

As for doubling up . . . many kennels allow 'play groups' . .. dogs are social animals and if you mix carefully, and pick and choose what dogs you allow, it can work very well. Putting unrelated dogs in the same run overnight without consulting the owner is shonky.

ditto that Kennels can refuse any dog for any reason. at xmas you can turn away any possible problem and know there will be another dog looking for a space

The Labs I get in kennel tend to be lean when young and, like many of us, I imagine, become heavier and less active as they age . .. my own Labs will do the same unless I REALLY cut back on their food. Eg, my Rainy, who is 8, is built like Henk in the photos shown above. Even on 2/3 of a chook, a couple carrots, and a hand full of biscuits a day, she'll stay above 35 kg. We don't do a lot of treats here -- other than chopped carrot. I think some of the fat Lab syndrome owes to low metabolisms. And some of the leaner group 3 dogs are lean cause they burn off weight very easily. I've had GSP's in kennel for extended stays. They easily eat twice as much as I would dare feed a Lab without gaining weight. Btw, I'd love to see pictures of all the lean Labbies shown in this thread five years from now. I'd be surprised if some of them don't fill out to a bit of more than many of us would like.

If people don't like JH's comments, can they please find some comments from within the Visula breed circle.

I've had 14 Labbies in the boarding kennel over Easter. Among them, they dispayed the best and the worst stereotypes about the breed. All all of them are gutsers. There's a wide range in how much rib and waste-line they show. I have to confess, to me they look better slightly rounded: the really lean one look skinny and tend to act food obsessed. And thinking about the breed origin and job description, which is big on swimming in cold water and working when cold and wet, I think the breed might be nudged a bit in the direction of marine mammals, where a layer of blubber is entirely healthy and the lack of fat results in reproductive failure, if not death. I have a couple hundred Labbie clients in my kennel. One is diabetic . .. and I do believe chronic obesity can be unhealthy. But might it be wrong to place Labs in the same class as hot climate dogs, bred for working in hot, dry conditions? Curious to know how others see this.

I normally walk five or six dogs together, often including a pup or two, so we're highly vulnerable. Many dogs will hesitate to attack when they are well and truly outnumbered. . . even if the numbers are Labbies who are totally naive about fighting. I'd normally yell (low, threatening tone, as guttaral as possible) something like OOY! Get out of here! Bloody dog! Go home. I would hold on to the leads as the dogs are safer if they hold together. Fortunately, this rarely happens around here

Jeezus K'rist. No wonder the animal rights loonies are getting more/better press than the pedigree mob. Can't you people do anything more constructive than attack one another. For shame. I think it was Thomas Paine (~1775) that said something about "all hang together or we'll all hang separately".

I have Labs, so may have biased opinion. But, dogs don't often starve themselves when food is on offer. They can pick up on attempts to help in a way that makes the situation worse. I'd say that unless the pup is looking really starved, let it float for a few days. My guess is that the pup will come around and work into some sort of dog-logic pack.

I cry for you. It's hard. I haven't done this one with a dog, but my Mum had a similar rather hopeless diagnosis. Thankfully her brain stayed clear. She wanted the pain meds kept on, but no heroic measures. Sometimes the old are ready for death. Sometimes all we can do is keep the cruelty of pain at bay.

Looks like the dogs aren't the only thing that's gone out of control. I'm not sure I want to hear the gruesome details, but I wouldn't take it for granted that the dogs were the problem. Looks like the dogs may have plenty problems of their own.

This has to be the saddest story I've heard for years. My heart bleeds for the poor bloke and his family. Good that he's out of a coma, but sounds like he'll feel the effects for the rest of his life -- and quite likely his life will be shortened. Sometimes I wish I believed in heaven and hell, and could have confidence that the person who allowed their dog to attack would be roasted in the flames of. Sounds unlikely that the person will be found and charged.

Yah, but we all know what happens to greyhounds that don't come up to scratch. On the other hand, with top greyhound semen going at $several k / straw, the revenues would be a drop in the ocean by comparison.

OMG! I hope he's sound.