sandgrubber

Clipping from the article . . . some of which I understand and some of which is over my head (I'm a scientist, but not a geneticist): "Dog have several genes in their Class I region, one of which is very diverse, with lots of alleles. They have three haplotypes, or groups of alleles, in their Class II region, which are called DLA-DRB1, DLA-DQA1 and DLA-DQB1. Each one of these haplotypes is polymorphic, having many variable genes. There are more than two hundred different alleles that can be present in each Class II haplotype, and they find more of them all the time. Class III is much less well studied. I think it's great that they're beginning to understand what sequences that lead to weak immune systems. Computational genetics is advancing furiously cause computer power has grown astronomically; the ease of gene sequencing has advanced almost as fast. I believe the time is coming when gene maps will be able to guide us in understanding of important dog traits, including inherited behaviours, intelligence, muscular-skeletal strengths and weaknesses, etc. The problem I have with maximum difference type tests and breeding strategies is that, taken blindly, they logically lead to advocating cross breeding or at least finding the dog who is least least-similar to your bitch. If you are trying to perpetuate some specific attributes of your dog and/or bitch, going for maximum heterozygosity is not a good strategy. Yes, it may resolve some immune problems, but say you've worked hard to end out with strong hips and elbows and good endurance . . . dogs/bloodlines that are outstanding in these traits come about because the gene pool has been narrowed. Broadening the gene pool is likely to throw the baby out with the bath. I don't think I've said this very well. Maybe someone else can do a better job. And I've totally messed up the quotes . . . sorry.

Should note, how good is more important than how many. My girls have tended to have much more milk in the back than the front, and by the time the pups are three weeks old, they hardly bother to compete for the front positions . . . . while the double nippled back teats almost always have two pups on them. I've notice other people's girls seem to have much bigger boobs in the front than mine do.

When my guys play indoor mouthy games they often make loud, non-barking noises that are pretty hard to describe. I'd love to record these and start a thread where we could share the various sounds our various dogs make. But I don't think we can attach sound-format files. Does anyone else want to share recordings . . . or have a suggestion about how to do it?

Most of my girls have had 9 or 10, or 11 or 13 if you count the double back teat as two. Good thing bitches don't wear bras . They'd need a huge variety or they'd all have to be custom made.

I'm happy not to be in the boarding kennel business any more. It's a huge amount of work and lots of responsibility for not much income. I don't like the idea of government meddling in kennel standards any more than I like the idea of government meddling in breeding standards. It may be a good idea . . . but it seem likely that rules will be framed badly. When I was in the business I found the guidance toward 'cover your backside' contracts came from the Companion Animal Boarding Association . . . which handed out a 'generic' lawyer-developed boarding contract that relieved owners of responsibility for illness, loss or accident and gave them power to dispose of animals at will if the owners were absent for more than 2 weeks after their supposed pickup date. This was around the time of the Tsunami disaster and we had quite a few clients in Bali . . . I dropped the contract around that time and went without contract. But that is risky. Steve mentioned checking daily. We got in trouble with that one once. We watched our dogs pretty carefully, and we were good about picking up behavour changes, limping, etc. but we didn't do a daily feel-down. How closely we monitored was determined, in part, by the dogs. A few wouldn't allow a 'strange' person to touch their front/flanks/rear unless they were restrained . . . checking for ticks on such dogs would have been a nightmare (fortunately we didn't have paralysis ticks in our area). Ok, if they were in for several weeks, they learn the routine, and most get so that they tolerate 'feeling'. But a lot of dogs are in for a week or less and unless you're a dog whisperer, some of them are difficult to deal with. The dog we got in trouble about was a one year old male Weim who wouldn't tolerate touching. He was in with his dam and a male sibling. We let the three play together. They loved running but were mouthy about their play. One boy got a tooth into the other boy and ended out with a pretty good puncture wound, which was little visible. We might have caught it if it weren't Xmas, but it was Xmas, and everyone was overworked. So the wound got infected and the vet bill got expensive . . . we paid out (or reduced the bill, can't remember exactly). The client never came back. I still feel bad about it. But shite happens. We were charging ~$14.50/day for the dog . . . great price competition in our area . . . and economics wouldn't support hiring enough staff/staff with adequate skills to do a systematic check of every dog every day, especially not at Xmas. There are also problems, such as bloat, that just happen, and are hard to guard against in a boarding kennel setting. And if you are rural in that sort of area, snake bite may be a possibility. In the ~5 years I had the kennel we had two or three incidents where an individual dog got a serious tick infestation. I don't know where this came from. Bandicoots? A dog that came in with first instar ticks and they became highly visible at the time it went home? A dog who was a tick-magnet? No idea why one dog would get hit while the other 20 in the yards seemed to be fine. If the government gets involved in such things, we'll all be spraying on a regular basis with highly carcinogenic chemicals to kill ticks. Though laissez faire has some bad outcomes . . . I think it may be better to let the bad kennels get kicked around by lawsuits and people badmouthing them than to try to legislate standards of care.

If I remember rightly, the average building height downtown Shanghai is around 10 stories. Sounds like a sensible policy. Too many dogs per acre makes for big problems. Good on them for allowing people to keep the dogs they already have.

True, in the short term. But if Mars is funding research, over time, it will affect what the universities study . . . sadly, money attracts research, and it's hard to do decent research without funding.

Thanks guys . . . glad to know it's not unknkown behaviour. Doesn't worry me, just weird. K9 sexuality is so different from human . . . or maybe it isn't . . . we just repress much more than they do.

Doesn't take a PhD to see this thread is seriously off topic.

Why not take it a step further and really maximize heterozygosity. Choose breeds that are a maximum distance apart on the K9 family tree, as established by DNA sequencing. Ie, breed the Asiatic group to modern hunting dogs. It's so sad that we're on the verge of understanding the genetic basis of many diseases, and the powers that be have decided that the key to health is mix-em-up with no regard to what genes cause what strengths and weaknesses.

Wonderful! I'll bet Ms Beatha Lee does a great job!

If that's scientific, I'm ashamed to be a scientist. I'd welcome a test that avoided doubling up on segments of code that carry risk of harmful recessive traits. But aiming to maximize the potential genetic heterozygosity, irrespective of what the genes do does makes no sense. Say, for example, some bits of code make for a healthy heart or strong immune system or low risk of HD. I'd like low heterozygosity in those regions of code, thank you very much.

I have a 7 year old entire Lab bitch and her 13 mo old granddaughter. They are good mates, play together, sleep lying on one another, etc. The old lady humps the pup from time to time. But the weird one, which I've only seen twice, is the pup occasionally goes for the old girl's teats . . .it really looks like she's trying to nurse. While she does it she pumps her hips and spine in a sexual sort of way. The old girl puts up with it for awhile, but eventually tells the pup off. What the heck is going on? Does anyone else get this behaviour?

Good to hear that one very stupid bit of breed specific legislation has been relaxed. Sure, greyhounds were bred for running down prey. So were all sight hounds. And there are greys . . . and dozens of other breeds . . . who find it good sport to run down a cat or SWF. I'm sure there are greyhound trainers who encourage the blood-sport aspect of the chase. The law should go after those trainers . . . not the dogs.

There are lots of things in the market that I think are overpriced, not to mention badly made, poor quality, etc. My response: Don't buy them. It's a market. People can charge what they want. Sometimes the price reflects production costs. Sometimes, rarity. Sometimes, a degree of monopoly. Sometimes it's smoke, mirrors, fashion, and hype. This is as true with dogs as anything else. I don't see why people get so exercised about this topic.

Actually Elina says: "Of course we have problems as well, but we have quite strict Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. I'd like to hear more about what the rules are, both for breeders and for pets . . . and how they are enforced. When I lived in Germany with a dog, I seem to remember there were quite a few rules and very high licensing fees. What was different was that people would tell you off if you broke rules . . . leaving much less for the equivalents of the RSPCA and rangers to do. The breed mix was quite different too. I'm in the US (California) now. It's more like Australia than Northern Europe.

Great story, but probably not true. All the 'ashes' I've seen come out of a crematorium had pretty good chunks of bone in them and couldn't be mistaken for coke.

Paul . . . could you please note where this was extracted from and provide contacts for Caroline Le Couteur. I think this discussion would be more productive if there were more dialog between the sides and less preaching to the choir.

There are many Lab breeders who have chocolates . . . including Driftway and Blackboy. Chocolate shows up in a few prominent Lab lines (eg, descendents of Master Mariner). A number of breeders have been working hard to import quality chocolate stock. I see no shame in charging more for chocolate pups . . . if you pay to import stock and/or do frozen semen AI to get the best quality stud, it's fair to pass on the costs. And if supply can't keep up with demand price will rise. What's wrong with breeding to meet market demand IF you don't sacrifice health, temperament, or conformation. It can be done . . . but requires working a little harder to find the right dog. I'd suggest just going to the DOL puppy ads. You'll find lots of chocos. Then weed out breeders who don't test, who show bad test results, and whose lines don't show quality . . . and if some of them are too expensive, give 'em a miss too. Another good strategy is to figure out what choco stud dogs you like (personally, I like Berolee William Trigg, IMP UK, at Blackhills Labradors in NZ) and check to see who has used them. People who take the trouble to use a really good dog are likely to be working toward quality.

I think feral is a great label for wild, loud, undisciplined, kids who show no respect for others and take responsibility for nothing. I've met a few of 'em. That aside, I'd like to complement everybody for not taking the denial route. I appreciate the absence of 'who says it's a Labrador, show me a photo, it may be an ill-bred one, my dogs will allow you to take a bone out of their mouths, . . . blah blah blah . . . yes, some Labs are resource guarders. Many are not. One more thing for breeders to keep in mind and to try and purge from their bloodlines. What an awful comment, I would never describe any child as a "feral".

"You don ' t stop laughing because you grow old, You grow old because you stop laughing!!!"

I'm confused. German friends of mine have told me that their kennel club (details lost in translation) disapproves of litters of over six pups, and that it is common practice to pick the best six and euthanise the rest early. Can someone clarify if this is an 'old' attitude that has been changed?

I think it's great that the Brits celebrate ugliness. This guy certainly qualifies!!!!! Personally, I think some breeds are ugly, full stop . . . and I tend to love them for it. Time for Australia, and the US (I'm a dual) start their own ugly dog contests As for whether this guy should be pts . .. I'd say you'd have to be a eugenicist/nazi to say advocate that unless he shows some health defect that dooms him to a life of pain.

I'd like to know too . . . and I'm sure others would. It's easy to distort and/or slander if the source is kept secret. How do you know this, lillysmum? I sent you a PM...this is not for general info on the board.

If you don't like what your council is doing, get involved . . . or at least talk to the people who represent you to find out what is going on. If the k9 community doesn't get involved, it's sure to get increasingly constrained.