sandgrubber

The problem with 'deed not breed' is that once the deed happens, it may be too late. The killer dog in this story had no previous, and I gather he was well fenced in. As endlessly pointed out, the problem with breed specific legislation is that breed is not a good predictor of aggression, and breed is often hard to determine. As also endlessly pointed out, aggression is not random: some breeds have higher tendencies to be DA or HA; more power = more damage; poor training, lack of exercise, abuse, etc. will bring out the worst in dogs who might otherwise not be aggressive. To make it worse still, whatever regulations are set forward are going to be hard to police, given the resources and mindset of most Councils. Can anyone offer a good solution?

Minority groups can have a significant impact on the attitudes of the majority. Being consistent and coherent is very important. Effective minority groups . . . but dog owners seem inclined to talk among themselves rather than working consistently and coherently to work the power structure or change public opinions. People worried about the fate of bull-type x breeds would do better phoning their state representatives, writing letters to editors, etc. than engaging in bun fights on forums, like this one, that do not reach the general public or the power brokers. (I'm as guilty as the next of this . . . but I'm no longer in Australia and my local and state government isn't going to go into BSL anytime soon.)

It doesn't matter where donations come from, but it does matter where they go. I can't find any guarantees that either of the funds listed will actually deliver money to the family, and both are associated with some ferociously anti pit bull text.

Like the plea for education and against anti-dog legislation. But I would have liked to see support for higher fines and possible jail terms for owners. I think the yabos who keep snarling beasts are hard targets for education.

If pollies need to DO something, why don't they pass legislation that makes it possible for people to be charged with manslaughter when their dogs kill someone? And why don't all the anti-BSL people stop moaning about BSL and get out and work to get the public anger redirected toward irresponsible owners? Sure, it's fun to have a good bun fight once in awhile. But this one is degenerating into a parade of fixed and well advertized positions. Not even entertaining. Someone reported that the owner watched and simply tried to call his dog off while the dog killed the little girl . . . don't know if it's true . . . but if it is, it's a disgrace that he get off with a fine. Keeping a vicious dog is pretty much like keeping a loaded gun. You're responsible if it goes off! The dog owner is a known individual. How come all the attention is going to what breed the dog is, rather than how the dog was (or wasn't) trained, confined, and kept?

It's sad that there are no signs of collections being taken. . . . you even have to search to find the names of the victim and her mother. I just sent the followint to the the Sudanese Cultural Centre in Melbourne via form mail: I don't know if you are in a position to facilitate. There is much anguish about the recent killing of Ayen Chol, and a number of people would like to make financial donations. We can't find a collection fund. If there is one, could you please provide contacts. Thank you. I'll report back if I get a reply. Their website is http://www.sudanesecentre.org.au I'm in the US so phoning is difficult . . . someone might want to phone cause sometimes such things get difficult via email. Eg, I think there are splits in the Sudanese community and this organisation may not be in the same group as Jackline Anchito and her family.

I can see the rationale for regulating powerful dogs of breeds / mixes with bad histories. But by the same rationale, shouldn't we add a few more restrictions on large SUV's . . . I'm sure they are responsible for more traffic fatalities than economy cars? When the cost of restricting the likely-to-be guilty put horrible costs on the almost-certain-to-be innocent, something's terribly wrong. Especially when current dangerous dog legislation is poorly enforced and easily evaded.

Bans can be effective. Dog fighting was banned in England in the 1890s. This didn't end dog fighting, but it sure cut down the amount of it going on. Dog carts were banned shortly thereafter. Sadly, this seems to have all but ended the use of dogs as cart animals. Living in the US, I envy places where there are strict gun laws. Lifting a drug ban generally results in an increase in the use of the drug. But if what you want to get rid of aggressive neighbourhood dogs, banning the APBT is a pretty backassward way of going about it . . . for reasons elaborated by many above. (In a nutshell, too much harm to the good guys to try and prevent a few bad guys from being bad . . . and many/most of the bad guys will evade regulations anyway).

Actually, there does seem to be a growing problem of aggression in Goldies. No way should this lead to a breed ban. But I do think some strong peer pressure should be directed to the bloodlines of aggressive goldies. http://www.ygrr.org/surrender/surrender-aggressive.html http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/are-golden-retrievers-becoming-more-aggressive/ I don't trust government to make good decisions relating to dogs. But it does the dog world no good to deny that there is a genetic component to aggression (HA, DA, fear aggression, any or all of the above). Those of us who breed dogs need to take this genetic component seriously.

That is really sick. I agree!!!! That is a really disturbing statement Try another scenario. The dog's owner has been robbed a couple times. He, rightly or wrongly, blames 'blackfellas'. Any time a dark skinned person goes by and the dog hits the fence, he tells the dog 'good boy', and he laughs when the local refugee community shows terror at his dog. The dog has been out on a few pig hunts, and has poor bite inhibition. Oops the gate got left open. If this is what happened, in my opinion the guy is guilty of both a hate crime AND murder (ok, involuntary manslaughter). Can't blame the dog. The above is just fiction, but, I think, more plausible than your scenario. PF is right . . . the owner is the problem. There are instances of dogs killing children, but it's almost always a child wandering into the dog's yard; occasionally some horrid result of not properly introducing the dog to the baby. I think you'll have a hard time finding even a single incidence in the dog attack statistics of a dog going into a neighbour's home, killing a child, and harming other people. That is absolutely unforgivable.

All the sadder cause the poor woman and family were refugees from a place where tragedy is everywhere. First a house fire, then the loss of a child, plus mauling of herself and another child. . . in a place she fled to because it was supposed to be safe. I hope she's getting the support she needs. Not a nice thought, but I wonder if the owner had trained his dog to go for dark skinned people. In my days in WA, I noticed that this was not uncommon (you can find it in some places in the US, too). p.s. I despise the habit of newspapers of inserting a stock photo of a dog in such stories. Would they insert a stock photo of a criminal into a story of a crime?

Working on it. Good. Didn't want to be accused of anthropomorphism, but my reading is 'grieving and lonely' more than separation anxiety. Dogs are social animals and some take the loss of a companion pretty hard.

Some reports say 125 lb woman and don't give the dog's weight. Methinks none of the reporters saw the dog and somebody got the facts confused. Then somebody else copied the error and soon it was all over the place.

Setting up a task force is a recommendation for business as usual, while tossing a worthless reward to some constituency. No teeth, and often bite inhibited to boot.

Not all animal testing is bad. Hope that good results here add to understanding, and eventually to better health for both dogs and humans. On the other hand, what sort of dick head would leave a dog on a burning-hot roof for 10 hours!!!! Poor dog . . . pads burned off . . . even nipples burned from trying to give the paws some respite from the burn. Then the sub-human a##-hole was brazen enough to leave the dog in a shelter. Shame!!!!

Deeply tragic. Not only has the guy lost his family, it must be crushing to have worked hard against BSL and then have this happen. Not to mention being the focus of media attention. Much as it would be good to have all the gory details, I think the guy's privacy needs to be respected. Sounds like a one-off to me, and, unless the necropsy turns up something wrong with the dog, I don't think there's much to learn from this horrible case.

Get her a friend?

Too true, I've just had someone telling me that SBT and APBT are basically the same breed Had someone on here argue exactly that same thing - however that APBT, AM Staff and STafford were all the same breed. Hope the truth is found soon. Poor family There will always be lumpers and splitters. That's taxonomy for you, whether you're dealing with Eucalyptus or molluscs, or dogs. And lumpers and splitters will always disagree. In a way, they're all the same. In another way they're all different. I'd say Americans have good reason to define the American pit bull. Here (in the US) we have the registered type, and the street-bred type. Far more or the latter. I find it moving that the husband puts no blame on the dog and will bury the dog's ashes with his wife. Unless, of course, he somehow engineered the whole thing (I've read too many detective novels) and it was actually a murder. But, as in the best side of a detective novel, you need to suspend judgement until the end. And understand that in the real world, it may be necessary to suspend judgement forever, cause no clear answers come out. But who gives a damn what us voyeurs think anyway?

I appreciate good recall. It's critical for retrieving . . . and for allowing the dog to go off line. Don't specially like the dog. I have nothing against tall, lanky Labs, and if you want to do dog sports, especially agility or jumping, with a Lab, I'd say they're great. But they are far removed from the original Labs . . . I suspect they come out of outcrossing done to get better performance in retrieving trials that included fence jumping, and where speed was critical. As for the 'old' part of 'old fat Labs'. All breeds get old. Labs are inclined to thicken with age. Attached are a couple shots of early Labs. Photography wasn't great at action shots in those days . . . so no surprise that they're oldies and stationary. But to the best I can figure out, the Lesser St. John's dog, from which the Lab was derived, was solidly built, and endowed to work in cold water. I've spent an hour trying to attach two .jpg files showing early Labs. I'm going to post this without them and try to put the photos in a second post. p.s. OMG the photos showed up in the post. The first is 'Nell', said to be the first photo of a Lab . . .1856. The second is BuccleuchAvon, 1885. Lab historians agree that Buccleuch Kennels was the central kennel in the establishment of the Labrador as a breed.

ops . . .didn't read carefully, he's a she . . . and it may be significant that the dog is papered. Who knows. The dog may be stunning and a good example of the breed. If this were my relative, I'd encourage her to do it right if she's going to do it. Do the tests, do a bit of showing, end up with a dog that merits being studded out, and might even bring in a good stud fee. And if the health tests show he's not fit to sire, off go the nuts, cause you don't want to end out sued . . . or shamed . . . for passing on hereditary diseases. Ditto others. Rottis are prone to serious hip and elbow problems, also entropian and ectropian. In OFFA stats, 40% of Rottis have OCD (third worst of all listed breeds) and ~20% have HD.

Thanks for posting this. Don't know much about the UK dog scene. Sounds like a great guy who did a lot of good for the dog world.

I agree that we should wait to see the coroner's report. . . . and the necropsy results on the dog. But I've never heard of the news source, and not ready to believe it over other, better established sources. If the ladder story is true, I don't understand why the husband isn't endorsing it? He loved the dog enough that he's having the dog's cremated ashes buried with his wife. If the dog is innocent and the police framed and shot his dog, you'd think he'd speak up. Especially, given his support of Bad Rap, etc. p.s. Clicking a few more buttons shows that examiner.com employs citizen reporters, and the woman who wrote the linked story is a pit bull advocate. She calls herself "Pit Bull Examiner". She doesn't live anywhere near the Pacifica CA, and is unlikely to have inside information other than that coming through pit bull circles. See: http://www.examiner..../cindy-marabito edited to add further information on story source

Just seem wrong to take a breed that was bred for a soft mouth and train it to bite and pull. Like putting staffies on a racetrack (ok, that's great for a laugh) . . . or having a daschund pull a cart (that would be pretty funny too). I know it can be done. I've had puppy buyers who allowed the Lab puppy to play run/chase in the land shark phase of puppy development and ended out with a dog that bites hard in play. I'm sure that 'get the bad guy' can be presented as play.

See what others are charging . . . raise or lower depending on the quality of the litter and how many inquiries I'm getting. Ie, like a typical capitalist.

How about, only breeds with <3% incidence in the latest statistics need to be tested? It doesn't fall along big/small lines. Some small breeds have awful scores, ie, pugs. OFFA lists six breeds as having <1% incidence of OCD. It would be silly to require elbow testing in these breeds. see: http://www.offa.org/stats_ed.html In general, I think the importance of testing is some product of the probability of the dog having the condition and how horrible the condition is, moderated by some factor describing the accuracy and expense of the test. HD/OCD, in my book, is pretty awful, but radiographic testing is only moderately good at predicting whether a dog will be clinically affected, inheritance is complicated, and the test is fairly expensive and intrusive.