sandgrubber

All this fuss about pit bulls. I'm curious. How many of them do people think there are? Are there any credible statistics? (I stated 'pureblood' rather than 'pedigree' because I don't think the AKC recognises pit bulls).

The story below. Not sure it says anything about pit bulls, but it sure as heck suggests that fines for dangerous dogs are too low. I'd say the guy deserves a little time in the slammer, as well as a big civil penalty for vet bills, medical bills, grief and suffering, and permanent harm done to her dog. Woman's pit bull attack ordeal A TOP End woman is taking legal action after she was attacked by her neighbour's pit bull. SARAH CRAWFORD | August 26th, 2011 Chris Vanderburgh, now living in Cairns, with her dogs Spencer and Georgie who were attacked by a pit bull at her Darwin home. STEWART McLEAN Christine Vanderburgh had to call a council ranger to remove the American pit bull terrier she trapped inside her Darwin home. She said the attack was frighteningly similar to one in Melbourne last week where a four-year-old girl was killed. Ms Vanderburgh was mauled and her pedigree dog had its testicles partially ripped off when the pit bull attacked them in her yard. She said the pit bull dug underneath the fence of her Tiwi home in a surprise attack one afternoon when she returned from work. The dog chased Ms Vanderburgh through the yard and cornered her and her two french mastiffs at the front door. "It bowled me over and lunged under my boy's legs," she said. "Pitbulls are the pits and Pitbull owners are sick. Wanta tell the world you are STUPID? Get a pit." "I managed somewhere in the attack to throw the dog through the doggie door." Ms Vanderburgh said she slammed the door shut and called Darwin City Council to help remove the vicious animal from inside her home. The chef had a dislocated wrist, bites and two fingernails ripped off. Her french mastiff, Spencer, had to undergo surgery to stop internal bleeding and have his testicles removed. Darwin City Council regulatory services manager David Neall said owners of the pit bull were fined $822. The dog was declared a category one animal, which means the owners had to put a sign on their Trower Rd home warning people about their pet. They also had to reinforce their fence. American pit bulls are not illegal in the Territory, but it is illegal to import the breed into Australia. The attack cost Ms Vanderburgh $2000 in vet bills. She is seeking compensation from the pit bull's owners.

I think the public, including most politicians, is clueless about the difficulties of breed identification. How about somebody organising an event . . . call it, say "full of Bull" . . . . invite a bunch of people with X-breeds that look bull breed like (though it would be good to a few short haired muscular medium sized dogs with no bull in them), plus some pedigree Am Staffs, and then play "spot the pit bull" . . . If you played it right, you might even get some 'experts' to make fools of themselves in public, with media present.

One of my vets said it was ok to substitute rice plus some cooked lean ground meat for Hills L/D. She may have even recommended some cooked soft veg. Post in a new thread with title like "recipe to replace Hills L/D needed" and I'll bet someone will be able to give you a recipe for a substitute.

I stand corrected. Looks like The Conversation . . . which published the article . . . is independent academic something-or-other, started through support from Founding Partners: ANU, Monash, Melbourne, UTS, UWA, plus CSIRO. Still looks like the bar has been set low for PhD research.

Shame on Monash University for publishing this. If this is PhD work there should be some note of the supervisors, etc., some research plan, and more apparent content than reworking of well-worked, opinionated positions. I hope Ms Watson is actually going to do some research to fill in the gaps. There is useful research to be done on this subject. I could, for example, see a good PhD based on interviews with the people who would end up with responsibility for enforcing a breed ban. I'd love to see the results, for example, of asking a few hundred Rangers to take the 'identify the pit bull' test. I see no sign of original research here; it looks like someone with a set position jumping into a topic to accumulate material supporting their position.

Come on, think harder. The prohibition of bull and bear baiting worked pretty well, as did the UK ban on cart dogs. Are you to young to remember when hairspray contained CFC's? Breed bans hard due to problems of identification and enforcement. Staffies are extremely common in Australia and SBT crosses are everywhere. Some of them look vaguely like APBTs, especially to someone who has never seen an APBT . So there's a huge grey area, and a large population of people who stand to get VERY p'd off by bans that seriously begin knocking off X-breeds.

Really? I always thought it was the GSD. GSD is #2 in the US and #3 in Australia. I was wrong, in 2010 the SBT overtook the Lab in number of registrations, and may be the most common breed, though numbers are similar. In the UK the GSD isn #4, behind Lab, springer spaniel and cocker spaniel.

I just discovered the OFFA database. Wonderful to find you can follow through a dog's progeny, half siblings, etc. for hips/elbows/CERF and cardiac . .. if and where tests were done. see, eg http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=283997#animal The vertical pedigree option is useful, too.

GR's are generally softer dogs than Labs BB.. I suggest if you're serious you meet as many as possible. I think that there are as many temperament differences as there are physical ones. You should also look at Flat Coated Retrievers.. wonderful dogs and probably a bit softer than some Labs. I would ignore this advice. Choose your breed according to you preferences. Choose a breeder who is aware of temperament. Temperament tends to be hereditary in gun dogs and pretty predictable. There has been a rash of aggressive or posessive and bite-inclined Goldies over the last few decades, so don't take it for granted that a Goldie will be soft. See, eg. http://www.ygrr.org/...aggressive.html http://retrieverman....ore-aggressive/ Guide Dogs has done lots of breed temperament comparison studies, and they keep going back to Labs because the chance of finding rock solid temperament and high intelligence and trainability is high in Labs. PF uses Labs as strawmem. There's plenty you can dig up on individual Labs. They are, afterall, the most common pedigree dog in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia, and very popular elsewhere. So even if they're proportionally very low in incidence of aggression, etc., you can always find a few exceptions, and they may come up numerically significant. If there were as many poodles as labs, there would be a lot more poodle attacks. Some work-oriented Lab breeders may aim for high drive for hunting and may produce some dogs who have more energy than you might want in your household. But in general, those breeders are happy to tell you what they're doing. Personally, I like a dog that is sufficiently solid that you feel something when you lean on them or pat them so hard it gives a good thump. And I'd rather see muscles than a flowing (care-intensive) coat. The flip side of this is young dogs that may bowl you over if they hit you from the backside, and who need to be trained not to jump up cause they are inclined to scratch the paint on a car . . . or scratch you if you have bare legs. Goldies and flatcoats are less satisfying to me than Labs.

I can't find the original standard, but there's a good comparison of standards at http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/labrador/labarticle6.htm Basically, all say the skull should be broad but not disproportionate or overdone. A big head on thin legs looks awful. Note, there are lots of dual purpose labs whose breeders aim to keep to show standards, but still maintain a working dog. Note also that the 'working lab' group includes broad-deep chested Labs with relatively large heads and strong legs. Google 'Master Hunter Labrador Retriever' and you'll find lots of examples. Eg http://www.masterlabradors.com/chgoosemh.html

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44254505/ns/today-today_pets_and_animals/#.TlT2bea2H8E By Jennifer Emert WSMV-TV Albany, GA — A Georgia dog apparently has a taste for the finer things in life. The pooch dined on a meal of $10,000 worth of diamonds. Honey Bun often walks the counters at John Ross jewelers. He's not much of a guard dog, but he is great on customer relations. "He's been loved," said co-owner Chuck Roberts. Customers sometimes hide treats in their purse for Honey Bun, but the Roberts' recently learned this pampered pooch has more expensive taste. It happened two weeks ago when a customer came in. "A customer came in and I jumped up out of my chair and came out here to wait on him. And I left the chair where you could jump up on my chair and jump up on my desk," said Roberts. On the desk: four packs of loose diamonds, about a carat each to set in diamond earrings, pens, and dog treats. When he returned, only three packs remained, and an empty pouch was lying on the floor. "Looked all over and there weren't no diamonds, so immediately, I knew he'd eaten them," said Roberts. Since Honey Bun wasn't talking, there was only one way to find out. Carbon doesn't show up on an x-ray, but two blank spots confirmed honey bun was a likely suspect. It only took a day, and they found another surprise. "The next afternoon, sure enough, the earring back and two diamonds were recovered. No panic," said Steve. Honey Bun was guilty as charged, but this pooch was granted a reprieve. "I haven't scolded him to this day and won't," said Roberts. "It was my fault for leaving the chair there. That's why." It's taught Roberts a valuable lesson. He's now very cautious about where he leaves his desk chair, and they're keeping a closer eye on honey bun, especially around the precious gems. The diamonds were cleaned up and sent back to the supplier. As for Honey Bun? He got a clean bill of health.

I've gotten so I can't sleep without hearing my old girl snore. Figure I've got more anxiety problems than the dogs. But jeez, I wish they wouldn't take naps on the bed when they're soaking wet or muddy :D. My bad. I should keep closer watch on their comings and goings. BFD. More laundry.

I know this both from having dogs of my own PTS, and from having, in several years running a boarding kennel, had to deal with a few dogs who faced their last days while boarding. It's hard. When someone comes into a kennel with an oldie who is tottering and books for a long stay, you really should ask them what happens in the case of a serious health problem. How much do they want to pay for emergency treatment, should there be organ failure (or whatever)? Do they want the cheaper form of cremation, or a private cremation, for an additional $100 or so, where they get their own dog's ashes back. People don't like to deal with these questions when they come into a kennel. So it often gets glossed over. I'm sure it's the same at the vets. Should there be standard forms, eg., an addendum to the stuff vets put in to make sure you pay your bill asking what sort of burial/cremation you want and are willing to pay for, should the pet not make it through? I don't know. Maybe it would be good for us to get desensitized early by seeing this in writing . . . and to be forced to make up our minds when we aren't grief-struck. But then, there's already too much paperwork in this world.

I am no fan of Bible bashers. But I'd have no problem selling a pup to someone who came with the Watchtower in hand . . . or who asked me if I take Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. I admit my prejudice. It is irrelevant to the question of loving and caring for a puppy. There are some people I like that I wouldn't sell a puppy to . . . cause I know them to be irresponsible.

Maybe this is naive . . . but how about going in to you local Rangers with the dog, stating your concerns, and making it clear that you're going to do socialisation, training, etc. Invite them to come look at your containment. The Ranger is a human being and most of them like dogs, but are under a lot of pressure from all directions. Can't hurt to establish an understanding before any problems arise.

Joke. Hope she gets laughed out of court.

The Mountain Cur isnt here but the Black Mouth Cur is.It has just been imported not the same dog but similar.Remember the movie old yeller.As usual I think you read too much into a breed description.Do you know what a tree dog or bay dog is.they are terms fromyour country not here.A tree dog is bred to hunt the quarry and tree it so it can be shot they arent holding dogs.A bay dog will trail the quarry and sound off and hold it at bay once again not a holding dog.They are more natural cattle dogs and bred as the quintessential american farm dog in parts of the rural south and yes they can be territorial but lets face it which breed of cattle dog isnt. I think breed descriptions should be taken at least as seriously as romantic movies. Temperament differences between breeds are real. Denying them is stupid. In the movie, Old Yeller was played by a Labrador X. Of course I know what a tree dog is, and I once had a neighbor with a pack of 17 bay dogs, making the full moon a notable occasion. I agree, cattle dogs are in some ways equivalent to the larger Curs. Heard plenty of stories of people being bailed up by heelers, and a few about serious damage. They show up in the bite statistics. Yes, other breeds cause problems. The breeds I have, personally, been bitten by are Irish setter, GSD, ridgeback, miniature poodle, and JRT. And in my days running a boarding kennel, heelers, shephards, and bull breeds were the types that required the greatest caution (for some reason, we never had trouble with any of our boarding Rottis . . . probably cause we happened to get a group of responsible Rotti owners). As someone pointed out in another thread, a lot of people agree with Matthew B, probably more than not. I think people who legitimately feel their dogs are threatened by BSL will have better success in defending their right to keep their dogs if they admit that dogs are unequal in both ability and propensity to hurt people and other animals. As I've said elsewhere, 'ban the deed not the breed' isn't a great slogan when the public is up in arms about 'deeds' and want to prevent further deeds. It's a bit late to ban the deed when a child is dead. I don't know the solution, or even if there is a 'solution'. Education sounds wimpy, cause the people who need educating are often the hardest to reach. Owner licensing is another thread in the general discussion, and I don't see a consensus emerging. But I don't think things are going to get better until people stop denying that temperament has a genetic component, and dogs bred for confronting bulls, bears, cougars, wild boar, etc. shouldn't be in the hands of inexperienced or anti-social owners, especially not in the 'burbs. I don't think attacking an individual who is marching to a different drum is constructive.

You needing to ask why the morons choosing this type of dog? The moron wants ezy aggression not dogs that need training is why they choose this dogs. Plenty morons owning other breeds also for tough dogs, but the other breeds from the morons not getting on the media for biting as much as these Bull breedings, so there is patten happening see? Joe Curious, Joe. I think I agree with you on the basics. Dogs bred for attacking bulls, bears, other dogs, large game, etc. pose greater danger and require owners who better understand how to manage their dogs, and who take responsibility for having a potentially dangerous dog. How can you prevent 'morons' from using such dogs to enhance some sick macho image of being tough--or, for that matter, prevent calculating bad guys from employing such dogs to protect their drug production facilities or other illegal activities?

Sense? Poppycock!!!! It is PC to say that 'all breeds are equal'. But it's not true. Breeds whose 'work' has involved hunting large, difficult quarry, or baiting bulls or bears, or both, are bolder and more inclined to do serious damage in the wrong hands. Gun dogs, on the other hand, are bred for soft mouths, strong bite inhibition, and low propensity to fight (a dog fight is the last thing you want when you're hunting birds). Sure, there are hard dogs in soft breeds and soft dogs in hard breeds. Soft breed breeders have a responsibility to make sure their more aggressive progeny do not pass on their more aggressive genes. I agree, it's better to come down on bad owners than on 'game' breeds. But given a few more incidents, legislation is going to come down on all dog owners. As a gun dog breeder who will gladly cull (usually by sterilization, but in extreme by the green dream) any pup or dog who shows signs of aggression, and who will verbally attack anyone in my breed circle who tolerates HA or DA dogs/bitches, it pisses me off to hear people deny that there is a genetic component to aggression. It's there. Any breeder who sells pups into the 'burbs as pets has a responsibility to avoid setting up nasty accidents waiting to happen.

"The dog that killed the child was reportedly not a purebred but a cross breed of the type often used pig hunters etc. Such dogs at least need to have a desire to stand up to and defend themselves against, if not attack, an aggressive quarry. I daresay out of a litter of such dogs 3 or 4 might go to hunting homes while the cast offs end up in the general community. If hunting with dogs was banned then there would be no need for such dogs but I don't think a government would have the political will to stand up to the hunting lobby." I think this is the crux of the problem. Question: What should happen to the cast offs? Is there a way to prevent them from going to owners who won't provide adequate restraint 365 days of every year, and training?

Aren't you fighting fire with fire here? Ie, looking for the part of the post with which you have a quarrel (exaggerating the alpha dog stuff) and ignoring the more substantive part (tough dog bred for big game, courageous, not recommended as a pet). Your moniker suggests that sympathetic rather than argumentative listening would be better. I think that some breeds are less fit for urban/suburban situations than others, on average. Not sure how to use that in policy design. I'm no policy expert. But I think that denial causes more problems than it solves; and you're going to have a hard time convincing most owners of small/gentle breeds that their dogs need the same measure of control as pig dogs and other dogs bred for courage in the hunt or the ring. Even pit bull advocates (see, eg. http://www.workingpitbull.com/whydodogsbite.htm) agree that dogs from fighting stock are a problem with irresponsible owners. The policy challenge is how to prevent the morons from owning the wrong sort of dog. I don't know how to do this without putting hardship on responsible owners. Btw, I think the bull breeds were more often bred for bull baiting and bear baiting than dog fighting. Bull baiting was dying out in the 1800's when bans came into effect. Dog fighting grew as bull baiting ceased because it's much easier to conceal a dog fighting event than a bull-baiting event. Most stud dog registries were closed after bull baiting was banned, and modern dog breeds, in general, weren't established until after that time. Btw, I haven't spent much time around hunting dog packs in the US south . . . but I suspect that doing so would increase my support for 'alpha' theories. I keep Labbies, and find the 'alpha' theory is pretty useless for my dogs. btw., Your moniker isn't correct. Backburning is effective, and often more used in wildland fires than water.

I can see Matthew's point to a degree. While all breeds can bite, some are bred for temperaments that are likely to become a hazard. Take the bull breeds out of the picture because many people have loving investments in t hem. Let's look at the temperament description for the Mountain Cur, a US landrace that, so far as I know, isn't found in Australia. I don't think this breed should be welcomed to suburban or urban environments. 'Cat' here is likely to mean mountain lion; a 'razor back' is a wild boar. Underlining and colour changes in original. This is not a submissive, easygoing dog. With the toughness and courage to confront a very angry, very large cat, these curs have learned to be decisive and dauntless. Usually silent on the trail, they make consistent guard dogs but certainly are not ideal for suburbia, where there is no call to work. Trailing ability varies with strains, but they have enough nose to follow game and many carry treeing ability. Some lines are bred for tree dogs and others for baying. This very tough large game, raccoon, and squirrel hunter is willing to face a squealing razor back or an angry wild cat when it is cornered. They have a strong desire to please their master. Very protective of the property and family; and without an owner who is more dominant than themselves they can become over-protective. The Mountain Cur is noted for his courage. This hunting dog will catch a mad bull head- on in the nose and will hold his ground even against a bear when threatened. The objective in training this dog is to achieve a pack leader status. It is a natural instinct for a dog to have an order in their pack. When we humans live with dogs, we become their pack. The entire pack cooperates under a single leader. Lines are clearly defined and rules are set. Because a dog communicates his displeasure with growling and eventually biting, all other humans MUST be higher up in the order than the dog. The humans must be the ones making the decisions, not the dogs. That is the only way your relationship with your dog can be a complete success.

As my grampa used to say: "All the fools ain't dead yet."

This wasn't a government speaking. It was TAS state Liberal MP Rene Hidding, and it's not clear whether he was saying ban crossbreeds in general, or something like "why bother with pitbulls when there are so many cross breed pig dogs around the place".