sandgrubber

Split to new topic cause this was getting way off topic . . . The point of departure was whether recent winning and DQ'd Pekes are true to an ancient lineage. Agree, entirely. I posted a shot of a Ming Dynasty Foo dog sculpture because Peke fanciers often, without giving evidence, state that the Peke had been the same or has been nearly unchanged since the 8th century. Artwork alone doesn't tell us what the breed looked like, but it begins to test the hypothesis breed has largely remained unchanged for 1000+ yrs. I presented ~1900 photographs and taxadermy dismissed as evidence that the breed has changed. This was dismissed because the dogs shown are supposedly not good representatives of the court breed standard. I don't see why that should be believed unless someone provides alternative photos. I find poetry by the Dowager Empress Cixi convincing less convincing than visual art. There are other possible useful sources for reconstructing breed / land race histories: skeletons, DNA evidence, verbal descriptions, linguistic analysis showing how the words used to differentiate dogs have changed over time. These, in conjunction with artwork, might provide a pretty good historical picture. Btw, in looking for evidence, I found a great site -- oriented toward pugs but covering the small breeds of Ancient China generally. It uses both paintings and linguistic/literary evidence, and refers to historical documents, some of which may be available for download http://mypugs.atwebp...ent/orient.html This source says that in the last decades of the Chinese Empire the pug, shih tzu, and Peke were bred as palace companions "with little difference in type but with different coat length." It looks like her source was: Dogs of China and Japan in nature and art", by V.W.F. Collier ~1921 . . . out of copyright. Seems you can get it for $2 from: http://online.getmed...f/&aid=10&sid=1 I don't have the bandwidth. Hard copy reprints available from a few sources.

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups. Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education. United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate. How would you tackle this issue? Sigh! I wish I had a good answer. But having spent a good part of my life in education, I think its value for bringing about behaviour change is overrated. I doubt that the take home breeders exam and downloadable pamphlets for breeders have had much effect cause it's so easy to pass the exam by getting help . . . and telling them what they want to hear. Making the test harder, and/or not take-home, would frighten away new breeders, and that's the last thing the ANKC needs to do. Advertising/marketing is designed to change behaviour, and it works. But a good marketing program is damnably expensive and requires a clear, simple message. As shown by the environmental, anti-war, and civil rights campaigns of the 60's through 80's . . . and modern AR movements, low budget guerrilla tactics can be effective, but I'm not creative enough to see a way to dramatize the problems of unethical behaviour. The KC's will take on individual cases, as Steve has noted, and it might help if people used this avenue more for unambiguously unethical breeding practices. But then . . . at one point when I lived in a kennel area, had I a breeder on either side of me who kept dogs in filthy kennels and allowed very little exercise or socialisation. I know one neglected vet care . . . eg, allowing ear infections to go to abscess requiring surgery. Both did well in the show ring. One was an all-breeds judge. I'm stupidly brave in print, but it takes a lot of nerve to initiate a real confrontation with someone who lives next door, especially when they outrank you in the canine world.

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups. Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education. United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate.

No go. A dog is a friend and a living being that must work into my own values and lifestyle. I would never choose a breed on looks alone. As the saying goes: "beauty is as beauty does". I cannot select a breed without the 'does' characteristics.

Would I be contacted? Hit or miss. If they got killed on the road, there's a fair chance, but no guarantee, that the Rangers would get called and their paperwork would work from their ID tags. The microchips wouldn't work cause you need to pay an annual fee to stay on the microchip registry here (what a rip off!!!!!) and I haven't paid. If they were shot, eg, for running deer, chances are slim. Good fences make safe dogs . . . as well as good neighbours. I make damn sure my dogs stay home and don't run free.

I hear that the GSD and pug passed, and haven't heard of any other failures . . . so I gather that the Shar pei, Crestie, bloodhound, Frenchie, Dogue de Bordeaux, and Saint all passed. I'm not up to 15 breeds. What did I miss (three breeds, I think, or were there more than five DQ's)? The pattern of DQ's (no apparent pattern) suggests to me that the vets were just looking at individual dogs and seeing if they passed according to the check list they were given. Fair dinkum . . . though the vet check list should have been given more prominence when advertising for entries. I'll bet many entries weren't aware they could be DQ'd at the end for failing these particular health criteria.

You can't predict for individual dogs anyway. Just because a breed is given a group average 'life' of 14 + years (or whatever), doesn't mean every dog of that breed will do so. Nor can you predict which ticket is going to win Lotto. But you can get an idea of what the odds are. That's what the stats tell you. I've never bought a Lotto ticket. I'd rather put my love out to a dog that's likely to be with me for a decade or more. It hurts so much when they die. I am not sure the breed statistics are all important. To the best I can figure, some lines within a breed live much longer than others. I have been accused of a broken record. Here's the single place where I repeat most. I wish the pedigree world would track date and cause of death as well as the date of birth and the number of pups in the litter. That would provide breeders with a basis for breeding FOR longevity, and away from cancer-prone lines. . . . and lines prone to other diseases that have a known hereditary component. It really pissed me off when I went into the WACA to record the death of my foundation bitch and was told, in effect: "why bother . . . some of our members have hundreds of dead dogs on their books."

Yes

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic. The Lion Dog 'breed' was originally supposed to resemble Buddha's Lion. Small hitch, the people involved had never seen a lion. Unfortunately, they didn't have cameras at the time, so we can't develop a good visual history for the Lion Dog. The Dowager 'Empress' -- who is routinely quoted in descriptions of Palace Pekes, was a backwards, power-hungry individual who ended up as Empress only because she (as wife #3, not of royal blood) bore the Emperor a son. According to Coren, her legitimacy was questionable, and she used the Lion Dogs as a means of raising her association with Buddha . . . and hence, power. Quoting her is about like quoting Hitler to define the standard for the GSD. The western breed . . . which the Chinese would not have called the Pekinese (Peking is now called Bei Jing, and it was not always the Imperial seat of power) is a breed created in the late 19th/ early 20th century by people who came into possession of dogs taken from the crumbling remains of the Chinese Empire. Some Peke breeders believe there was cross breeding with other Asiatic breeds after the Peke came to the west (see the Happa Dog article I posted earlier). Historical photos show of the breed in the west show progressively denser coats and shorter muzzles. For a good description from a professional historian see See Ch 16 of Coren, Stanley (2002) The Pawprints of History, The Free Press. Note also the Australian standard for the Peke, copied from the UK KC revised standard of 2008. (The US standard has not incorporated the revisions, which were introduced to avoid extreme and unhealthy conformation). Head fairly large, proportionately wider than deep. Skull moderately broad, wide and flat between ears, not domed, wide between eyes. Nose not too short, broad, nostrils large and open. A slight wrinkle, preferably broken, may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose in a wide inverted V. This must never adversely affect or obscure eyes or nose. Pinched nostrils and heavy over-nose wrinkles are unacceptable and should be heavily penalised. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Firm underjaw. Lips not obscuring a well defined chin. Defined stop. Black pigment essential on nose, lips and eye rims. 'not too short' is subject to interpretation . . . but there's no question that it was added to the standard to encourage breeders to breed away from flat faced, brachycephalic dogs. The equivalent move has not been made in the US. In my book, that's a shame. p.s. I don't mind the heat and am not avoiding the kitchen. But sometimes (eg, when it's time to mow, fertilize, thin, prune, or harvest the vineyard, or when I decide to travel) DOL is not my highest priority. p.p.s. I am not highly qualified to speak on Chinese dog breeding practices over the last 1000+ yrs, but I'll bet my qualifications outrank most of the people who have attacked me. My mother's side of the family was involved in the China trade and knew the people who imported the early 'Pekinese'. My father was born in China in 1918. My paternal grandparents left China in 1950. I majored in Asian studies in a leading US university and at one point spoke passable 'Mandarin' and knew 5000+ characters. I've taken several university level courses in Chinese history. p.p.p.s. my first post on Malachy's victory began with a statement saying that I'm not big on coated breeds. I am also prejudiced against what I call 'barbie dogs'. No secret, I don't view the show ring as a good way to judge a dog's value and I detest breeding for charismatic image. I'd rather see health and temperament (including working ability if the breed still has 'work') than bench appeal used as a basis for what dog to put over what bitch. IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME, PLEASE BE AS OPEN ABOUT YOUR VALUES AS I HAVE BEEN. As for being accused of being a broken record . . . yup, that's what happens when you take a consistent position. When attacked, you're either a broken record, or you flip-flop. If you check my full record of postings, you'll find I am well above average for providing documentation for statements I make and making it clear when I am venturing opinions as opposed to presenting what appear to be facts. AND I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHY I HAVE BEEN DQ'D FROM THE BREEDERS FORUM.

Btw . . . the following link gives the instruction set the veterinarians are working from at Crufts: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/12708/SH102HPvetsurgeoninfo.pdf&pli=1 I've copied the general part . . . the document goes on with breed specific criteria Introduction for the HP Vet Books In January 2011, the Kennel Club announced that all dogs of the fifteen high profile breeds which win Best of Breed at Crufts 2012 and at General and Group Championship Shows after that, will need to pass a health check by the show veterinary surgeon before their Best of Breed awards are confirmed and before they are allowed to continue to compete in the Group at the show. Definition of a High Profile Breed A breed from time to time designated by the General Committee as requiring particular monitoring by reason of visible condition(s) which may cause health or welfare concerns. The list of designated High Profile Breeds is kept under regular review and is published from time to time in the Kennel Gazette. The decision to implement health checks was taken by the General Committee on the advice of the Kennel Club’s Dog Health Group, in order to ensure that the fifteen high profile breeds, enter the group competition free of signs of discomfort or suffering associated with exaggerated conformation. This move, along with the other health measures that we have put in place will help the Kennel Club to ensure that the show ring continues to be a positive influence for change in the world of dogs. The objective of this process is to ensure improvement in canine health is rewarded in the show ring and to protect the reputation of the sport of dog showing. The health check will be a veterinary visual observation and opinion at the time and for the purpose of establishing whether the dog is fit for function in continuing on to the group competition on the day. It is not intended in any way for the veterinary surgeon to act as a show judge of conformation. A Championship Show veterinary surgeon is not expected to judge the dogs for conformational defects which are of an aesthetic nature only, and therefore poor conformation that is not causing a clinical problem affecting health or welfare, does not form a basis for preventing a dog entering the group competition. Veterinary Surgeons should therefore be looking for the following clinical signs in four main areas: Clinical Signs: • Externally visible eye disease • Lameness • Dermatological disorders • Respiratory distress Eye Disease • Entropion or ectropion • Signs of inflammation • Chronic damage to the cornea • Signs of visual impairment • Signs of pain or discomfort Lameness • Any lameness is a disqualifying fault • Includes ataxia Dermatological Signs • Inflammation, scarring or hairlessness associated with: – Skin folds or facial wrinkles – Tightly curled tail – Tacking or other cosmetic surgery – Long heavy ears associated with irritation or inflammation Respiratory distress  Difficulty breathing  Lack of exercise tolerance  Colour of mucous membrane  Respiratory noise associated with any of the above We anticipate that the process will be carried out as follows: Best of Breed Selected – Award card handed out, but once judging is completed it should be collected back and retained by either a show official or the show secretary. Designated official to accompany exhibitor to Show Vet Exhibit passes check – Show Official gives Exhibitor the signed award card, and a copy of the completed vet form and permitted to enter the group competition – Society to send a copy of the Vet form to the Kennel Club with its show returns Exhibit fails check – Show Official gives exhibitor a copy of the vet check form, and confirms their dog is ineligible to enter the group competition – Society to send the BOB award card and a copy of the Vet form to the Kennel Club with its show returns Affected Breeds Each breed has specific conditions of concern and these can be grouped largely into conditions causing: External eye disease (current or healed), ocular pain or visual impairment. Lameness Dermatological disorders such as inflammation or evidence of previous pathology Respiratory effects or noise (at rest or with light exercise).

Have to say that every time I saw Malachy in the videos of Westminster, and read the critiques from everyone who said things like "couldn't you see that he was a wonderful specimen of his breed" etc., etc. I kept thinking of the Hans Christian Andersen children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" :) :) I feel a bit like the kid who said: "The Emperor is naked". Except that instead of listening, a bunch of people attacked. Btw, it is worth studying the UK KC's revised standards in interpreting the DQ's at Crufts. The US standard wants a flat face, the revised UK standard has backed away from brachy facial structure.

Hasn't anyone else found a stray with a phone number, only to find that the number has been disconnected . . . anyone know what fraction of the microchipped dogs out there have up-to-date contacts? Sure, not everyone has, or knows how to use, a smartphone. But there are probably 1000+ smart phones out there for every microchip scanner. And the teens and 20 somethings know how to use them even if you don't. The really big advantage of this product is that it lets you update information instantly. For example, my sister's dog escaped from the back of the car when it was parked when she was halfway through a ~400 km trip. With this sort of tag she could have, in effect, sent a message to whoever found the dog, giving up to date contact details and offering a reward. QR technology is a bit new . . . but it's growing rapidly.

Great story . . . thanks for posting. I'm amazed that a 9 yr old dog was included in a team. Husky gets life-saving mouth-to-mouth on Iditarod route Friday March 9th, 20120 comments | leave your own comment Scott Janssen saved his dog’s life by giving the collapsed pooch mouth-to-mouth.The Iditarod is known for pushing sled dogs and mushers to their limits, and that is precisely what happened to competitor Scott Janssen and his Siberian Husky, Marshall. On Monday night, while traversing the Dalzell Gorge, Marshall suddenly collapsed on the line. Janssen stopped the sled and ran over to his dog. To his horror, Janssen discovered that Marshall wasn’t breathing. “Boom! Laid right down. It was like a guy my age having a heart attack,” Janssen described. Janssen, known as “The Mushing Mortician” because of his day job as the owner of an Anchorage funeral home, immediately knew that the outlook wasn’t good. “I know what death looks like, and he was gone,” Janssen said of the unconscious Marshall. The sled team’s location at the time of Marshall’s collapse was remote; they were 22 miles out from their next checkpoint at Rainy Pass. Knowing that he was Marshall’s only chance, Janssen tried the only thing he could think of: CPR. Janssen put his mouth over Marshall’s muzzle and blew, trying to get his dog to breathe. After two rounds of mouth-to-mouth and chest compressions, Marshall began to show signs of life. “I was sobbing,” Janssen said, “I really love that dog.” Though Marshall was starting to come to, his condition was still grim. Janssen scooped the dog up into his sled and raced towards the Rainy Pass checkpoint, where the Iditarod veterinarians could better treat the ailing Husky. At this point, it seems that heart arrhythmia is the likeliest culprit. “The vets took a look, gave Marshall an IV, and he’s heading home,” said Janssen’s daughter. Marshall, at 9-years-old, is one of the oldest sled dogs on Janssen’s Iditarod team. He is also a family pet, and Janssen’s wife Debbie praises her husband’s quick thinking. ”He loves all these dogs. He told me he couldn’t imagine Marshall dying in front of him,” Debbie told reporters after the incident. The 2012 Iditarod is Scott Janssen’s second go at the grueling race, which runs the 1,049 miles of dangerous terrain between Anchorage and Nome, Alaska. The race is known both for its historical significance and its more controversial past, which includes allegations of animal cruelty and abuse.

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Agreed, the reviews at the side aren't good. If you get rid of the 'charm bracelet' and do only the one tag, your dog could be impounded for not displaying a local registration tag . . . and in the US, for not having a rabies tag.

Palacegarden Malachy and Palacegarden Bianca are from the same kennel. . . . I'd guess they'd be comparable. I've never heard of an athlete who considers a daily walk up and down a long driveway much exercise. There were screams about Malachy being exaggerated, but vet checks are not part of Westminster.

It puts me off, big time. Not just short life expectancy, but the likelihood that there will be serious illnesses from a young age. One exception, though. As a breeder it would be a worthwhile challenge to chase down lineages within a short-lived breed who have higher life expectancy and work to overcome the health problems that shorten life for the breed in question. I seem to remember someone on DOL talking about having Danes who were making it to a decent age.

I sure hope so. I think published reasons will be very important. No, apparently they are not going to reveal the reasons. http://www.dogworld....hecks_at_crufts "The Kennel Club would not reveal why they failed the new checks – introduced to Crufts this year – and said it would not do so for any of the 15 high-profile breeds although the reasons will be given to the club by the vet involved. The owners have no recourse to appeal." . . . looks like exaggerated features has something to do with it. ... "The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes," said KC spokesman Caroline Kisko on Thursday evening. "The independent vet decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their vet checks and therefore they did not receive their BOB awards and will not be representing the breeds in the remainder of the competition."

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4199/23/5/3 Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks No dog representing the Pekingese and Bulldog breeds will compete in Thursday evening’s Best in Group competitions at Crufts after they failed the new veterinary checks that have been introduced to the show. The Best of Breed award was not given to Pekingese, Palacegarden Bianca, or Bulldog, Mellowmood One In A Million, following their veterinary checks, which were carried out by an independent veterinary surgeon. This means that the dogs will not be allowed to continue into the Toy or Utility Best in Group competitions respectively. The Kennel Club has introduced veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners at all Kennel Club licensed General and Group Championship Dog Shows from Crufts 2012 onwards, in 15 designated high profile breeds. This measure was introduced to ensure that Best of Breed awards are not given to any dogs that show visible signs of problems due to conditions that affect their health or welfare. The fifteen high profile breeds are as follows: Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested. Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: “We are determined to ensure that the show ring is a positive force for change and that we help to move breeds forward by only rewarding the healthiest examples of a breed. “The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”

Dogs, especially big dogs, are not rubber. Young dogs may suffer lifelong damage from drops on developing joints. It's great that the OP's dog seems to be ok, but please, don't assume big falls are safe. Physics says the impact is proportional to mass X velocity squared. A 40 kg dog will hit eight times harder than a 5 kg dog. Long ago, a dog I was walking off-lead (in a vast park that allowed off-lead dogs) fell ~8 m and ended out dead. Be careful.

Personally, I think this is a snobbish and ambiguous part of the code of ethics. I also think the attitude that often goes along with it is a major reason that pedigree registrations are falling and designer dogs are increasing in popularity. People want a good healthy dog, with predictable temperament and look. Not many want a show dog, and a lot of the people who think they want a show dog go to one show and decide it's not for them. You can rationalise most anything under the rubric of 'improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed'. For a lap dog, being a good pet may equate to being a good working dog! Try and breed away from extreme conformation for health reasons and avoid popular sires . . . say so openly, and you'll be in for a lot of criticism. Yes, yes, we get that you don't like pedigree dogs. You should have a 'repeat button'. I get that your reading comprehension is poor and that you don't like me. I breed pedigree dogs and am proud of the pedigrees behind my dogs. I do health testing. I screen buyers. I'm no longer breeding because the lovely pup I kept from the last litter (sire, via AI, a multiple BISS import with excellent temperament and good health stats) did poorly on hip/ebow screening and my old girl stopped having regular cycles. Yatta, yatta, yatta. I have major problems with the show ring as a decider of what is an 'improvement' in the breed. Show judging has done immense damage to the health, temperament, and working ability of many, many breeds. If breed fanciers response to people voicing anti-show sentiments is to attack the messenger, the decline of purebred/pedigree dogs and the rise of designer dogs and puppy farms is assured.

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What business is the number of times a bitch can be bred of anyone but the breeder and the vet who KNOWS the bitch well? Most breeders have had bitches who struggled to have one or two litters and then were retired ..... and then the same breeders can a bitch who is bred now and then and loves to be a mother, is an excellent whelper, bounces back into good shape and can be exhibited in the show ring because she is in top shape and given plenty of time between litters. Souff was once pressured into retiring a bitch from breeding after she had a number of litters. She drove me crackers for the rest of her life because of false pregnancies and then, after she was spayed, because of her behaviour around puppies, pregnant bitches and other hormonal activity. NATURE DECREED THAT SHE WAS MEANT TO BE A MOTHER AND SHE WAS A BLOODY GOOD MOTHER! My vets and I agreed later that we should have allowed her to carry on for as long as she was a good natural whelper and feeder. Breeding was what suited her best and she delivered beautifully healthy pups. Straight after lactation she would spring back into shape and there were never any conception problems. Not all bitches are like her and the decision to continue to breed must be made on what is best for the individual bitch. Never again will I listen to anyone who tells me a bitch should be retired from breeding simply because she has had a number of litters! People who pressure other breeders over this can go to hell - it is not always in the bitch's best interests. Treat your bitches well, skip one or two seasons between litters and let them be in top shape when they breed. Let them do what nature intended and give them every possible assistance. Agree 100%. I can see forbidding double merle matings . . . it is cruel to knowingly cause the conception of pups fated to die blind and/or deaf. I can see limiting the number of litters a dog can sire in the interests of increasing genetic diversity. But what's the harm in allowing a broody bitch to have a fourth, or fifth . . . or if she's healthy and able, seventh brood?

Maybe changing attitudes among registered breeders to make it acceptable/respectable to breed healthy puppies for the pet market. If 'breed only to improve the breed' is interpreted narrowly, and people who do health checks, vaccinations, etc., continue to be shamed for not participating in competitions, there won't be enough pups for the huge number of families who simply want a healthy purebred with a known pedigree. If you can't get the pedigree dog you want, where do you go? If pedigree breeders can't or won't meet the demand for purebred pets, someone else is going to do it.

On this supermarket trolley nonsense . . . I'd say the complainers aren't showing that they don't like kids, they're showing that they're intolerant, self-righteous prudes. I sometimes eat things in the supermarket and have the checkers scan the packaging. I've asked if they mind. They say, no, it's fine. If the supermarket doesn't mind, why bitch about it? Supermarkets loose a lot more to people who take a five finger discount and walk out with some expensive gismo and a high-class steak in their pants than they do to people pacifying their toddlers. I'd guess that the screaming 2 yr old in the check out line is a much bigger negative to commerce than the Mum who allows the kid a treat while waiting at the counter. I'm not overtly Christian, but I remember a Jesus quote along the lines of : "It's easier to save 10,000 sinners than it is to save one righteous man." Hey, keep at it. Maybe we can get to 50 pages!