ellz

I didn't actually say that anybody denigrated "me" in particular but I did comment that I use my leads with success on my dogs and my horses and thus far, those who have purchased leads from me seem to be highly satisfied with them. I actually said that Warley denigrated OTHER lead makers (in general)....as I pointed out in this thread, there are a few of us here and I didn't wish to turn it entirely into a thread dominated by me. I only posted my photos because I was asked to. Not because I was hoping for sales and certainly not because I was hoping that others would jump on board and praise me up.

She has a lot of very happy customers, what's wrong with that? Nothing whatsoever, just find it amusing that's all given that one of the "happy customers" then has to denigrate other lead makers.

Gee isn't TeamSnag so lucky to have her cheer squad on board!! And yes Warley, I DO know what I'm doing and as I've been using mine on Staffords now for every day as well as show, as well as other breeds AND my horses!!!, I think it's fairly safe to say that they're not going to come apart in a hurry.

Fang Greyhound usually lets me know there is an ambulance coming before I see or hear it. He also lets me know if there is a transporter full of sheep coming.

As I said, there are a few of us here who make them.

Sadly, part of the reason I don't breed a lot and one of the reasons I almost stopped a few years ago was the sheer LACK of suitably qualified caring homes for puppies. Unfortunately, when you have a breed like the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, everybody thinks that they should own one but the reality is that very few really are "right" for them. My apologies to the GOOD pet owners and yes, I know they are out there but as a dog breeder, placing puppies in good homes, you are forced to kiss a heck of a lot of frogs before you find the princes!

They're only about 4mm wide Angelsophie. I'd have no hesitation using one on the American Cockers or even my new Beagle. They're not at all thick and clunky. Mrs R....I can always make another for you!

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Angelsophie, I'm not doing the bling at the moment. I'm leaning towards the old K.I.S.S. principle and keeping them simple and elegant. I personally think that the kangaroo leather is classy enough on its own! Here's a black/silver lead/collar combo. A martingale... A plain lead with a clip... Slip lead with an o-ring, made for a DOLer. Slip lead with a loop

There are also a few of us around who handbraid kangaroo leather show leads of various types too.

Heeeeyyyyy Take note of Tansy's breeding perception. Lovely post Tansy, nice to see some "ethical" breeders join the thread. The "ethics" to think about their buyers needs instead how everything effects them. And yet AGAIN BB is reading and interpreting ONLY the things in the post that agree with what they want them to agree with! NOBODY is saying they don't want purchasers to have their papers. And ST is not saying that ALL puppies are sold with main registration papers. Not all states HAVE express preparation of papers and even those which do, don't always end up as such. The assumption is also that the stud dog owner has signed off appropriately on the registration application and that the microchips have been done in the states where microchipping is compulsory. I also would not like to have a puppy microchipped prior to their first needles and I do NOT have injections done prior to the age of 8 weeks EVER! I don't get hung up on registration papers...MY equivalent of a TEN generation pedigree is more informative than a three generation pedigree a la a registering body anyway.....do you have any idea of the amount of work can be in researching and data entering enough pedigree information into a computer to generate one BB? NOTHING in this thread has convinced me that what I do is wrong. If anything, it has made me more determined NOT to sell to particular individuals. I have had many potential owners try to push me around and tell me what to do with my own puppies in the past and I'm no more inclined to let them do so now, than I was then, when I didn't really understand as much and hadn't had the experience that I've had to date. To be perfectly frank, in many cases, with my breed in particular there are times that I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself. At least then I can vouch for what happens to them and not have to deal with idiots any more!

Asking the price isn't a bad thing at all. Of COURSE you need to know how much a puppy is going to cost you. The point is that there are ways of doing it which will offend less, just as there are ways of approaching ANYBODY that you don't know if you require a service or goods from them. I PERSONALLY find it objectionable when people say "how much" with no introduction, no information about themselves or for what purpose they would like one of my puppies or the kind of home that they are offering. LITERALLY not a day goes by where I don't reply to a request asking "how much" and that is no exaggeration. Every email is given a reply, unless I cannot understand them or unless they tell me that they intend to purchase a dog and/or a bitch and want to breed. Having wasted (yes wasted) so many hours composing nice emails to such people over the years which have turned into nothing more than slanging matches because they will not be told and won't leave me alone when I tell them that no puppy of mine will be sold to somebody whose only interest is breeding from it, I don't even bother any more. I daresay I'm not alone in this. As said previously in this thread. My preference is replying to the emails who tell me exactly what they want, what they want to know and giving me an opening to be able to compose an educated and informative email in reply.

There were some manual registrations going through at the time, but not many. In most cases, dogs were just being shown with TBA as their registration numbers and many people were praying that their names would be accepted. It would have been a clerical nightmare to sort out otherwise. For my part, I purchased a puppy in August 1997 and didn't get the papers until March 1998 but could have still entered him in shows had I wished to do so.

Yep, my father has to tell my mother that he's L-E-A-V-I-N-G to K-L-A-W to the C-L-U-B soon or his lot go berserk!

I hear you but I don't agree with all that you say. When you have a "popular" breed or one that has a mixed reputation due to bad publicity or misinformation, you are naturally guarded with your replies and with the email enquiries that you get. Believe me, when you have received enough emails, it is VERY possible to get the "tone" of an email. And as I said, an email that just says "I want a staffy, how much are they?" (and usually not even with punctuation or decent, legible spelling either) is not necessarily how I would like to start what will most certainly be a lengthy interview/conversation process with somebody to whom I am going to entrust something into which I have poured many hours of my life and a heck of a lot of love. IF somebody is going to so quickly turn to purchasing from a pet store, simply because they are easily offended, then they probably aren't the kind of person I would be comfortable to deal with anyway and they probably wouldn't get through my own personal "selection criteria".

I am led to believe it is related to the infamous Poodle case that isn't mentioned in polite company.

I think I've shared a situation here of a dog understanding something. Old Dolly was sitting in the back of the car and Mr Ellz put a tray of lamb chops in the back with her (yes....not exactly smart on his part but there you go...it was a "boy thing"... ). As he put the chops in, he said to her "there you go Dolly, have a chop!" We arrived home and opened the back and yes, Dolly had been in the chops BUT....there was only ONE chop missing. Mr Ellz had said have A lamb chop and have A lamb chop she did!!

If there is the likelihood of a dispute, they may not even tell the OP that much.

I breed for me not for other people. If people want one of MY puppies, they do it MY way...it sure as heck ain't Burger King. I have the runs on the board and I am perfectly entitled to be arrogant. If buyers don't like it, they don't deal with me. Simple as that. I spend a lot of time screening and liasing with my puppy people prior to the sale of a puppy. Anybody purchasing a puppy from me is WELL aware of how things will work, not least because I use a written agreement which covers both parties AND the puppy and this also includes information about how the transaction will work (and cover all parties) if the papers are not yet back from the canine registering body. Nobody purchasing a puppy from me is left in the dark, no matter how old the puppy may be or what register it is placed on because they will have been told verbally AND via written means how the transaction will work.

NSW do not require a dog to be transferred into the purchaser's name by the breeder. NSW will not get involved in a dispute over ownership.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected ;) I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers. A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home. For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back. Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home. Damned if you do or damned if you don't. How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks I chose NOT to get it done in 10 weeks. I register everything except what I keep for myself on Limited Registration. They are my puppies and I choose what I keep first. I am in no particular hurry to get it done and as I have already said, ANKC rules say that it can be done up to 18 months of age. Either a puppy purchaser trusts me, or they go somewhere else. Simple as that. Editing to add: And once again, as I have said from a previous thread. If you insist upon just selecting bits and pieces from people's responses, then please do them the courtesy of doing so in context rather than just selecting ONE sentence that appeals to you and ignoring the relevant information from around it. You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters.

One of the benefits of being married to a printer!

Did you mention any of this to her? There isn't much you can do via DogsNSW, they will tell you it is a civil matter. My advice would be to contact Fair Trading and see what they say.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers. A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home. For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back. Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home. Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

Because BB doesn't WANT an educated response. BB wants to argue. BB knows ALL of the answers. I would hasten a guess that the combined knowledge base in this thread would add up to over a century of experience, yet BB who it would seem is NOT an experienced dog breeder knows more than all of us combined. Ellz, what you are trying to educate me with, is a comfort zone that some breeders fall into that they think is fair practice. I understand why some don't provide papers on collection...........but to cover yourself to help avoid the situation that the OP has raised, witholding final payment from the breeder until the papers arrive and the deal is completed is also fair practice in the circumstances. Naturally the breeders wouldn't like the idea of money being withheld anymore than the owners like chasing their papers for months from breeders too lazy to honour their obligation in a reasonable time. When you have paid the money and upheld your end of the deal, to have to suffer with dramas trying to obtain your papers has got knobs on it and shouldn't happen. BB, the breeders who cause issues for puppy purchasers are thankfully the minority. Why change or complain about a system which really does work well and has done for many years just because there are a few rotten apples in the barrel? Part of the problem is that puppy purchasers do not take more care about selecting the breeders from whom they purchase their puppies, NOT the fact that the papers are not back from the canine controlling body etc.

Because BB doesn't WANT an educated response. BB wants to argue. BB knows ALL of the answers. I would hasten a guess that the combined knowledge base in this thread would add up to over a century of experience, yet BB who it would seem is NOT an experienced dog breeder knows more than all of us combined. Ok, what about people like me? I want to know what's so funny about what was said? I don't know an awful lot about showing, so I'm not sure if everyone's laughing because of the use of the term 'disqualifying fault' or just because of BB's attitude??? It's not you Stormie. It's BB's attitude.