ellz

Understandable. So this is the bit I dont get - it's OK for a horse breeder to get into it big time and make a profit but the attitude seems to have cropped up here since I joined that if a registered breeder goes upscale and makes moneyin order to provide Jo Public with good dogs, they're automatically branded as a puppy farmer and/or hoarder. To be perfectly honest, and I dare say this will come back to bite me on the arse later......the biggest "issue" about making a profit from breeding dogs (or cats come to that) is that generally those who are making big profits are the ones who either house a large number of animals or who breed their animals almost continually. It is expensive enough to house a small number of animals in a comfortable manner so you either need to shell out a "large fortune" to provide suitable housing to give you the breeding stock sufficient to provide the puppies for the cash returns, or you have to drop your standards of care to a more affordable level so as to rake in the dollar return. The former is preferable to ANY breeder but largely unaffordable and I'll bet pounds to peanuts that nobody would admit to the latter. And of course, once you have invested in the former, or are guilty of the latter....you are almost committed to a large amount of breeding turnover to continue to afford to pay for it. There is also the fact that very few of the large scale breeders health test appropriately, regularly or in fact....at all (and sadly, this also seems to apply to the horse breeders who dabble in breeding dogs to "supplement their horse breeding incomes"). And the more puppies that you breed in a larger scale setup, or the more you breed when you are cutting costs....the cheaper the price you can sell them for, so the more the consumer (pet shops, puppy buyers etc) will buy. And then the cycle begins again. The more puppies you breed, the less you care about those you place, so your standards of screening either don't exist at all or decrease accordingly with each new litter. You have more puppies arriving all the time, so you can claim genetic diversity and never have to use an outside stud dog to get it. Tell me how many reputable, responsible small hobby breeders would want to admit that they make a profit if the above is what they will almost invariably be compared to?????

Sure for sure but if breeders make some money out of it and it keeps them going, goodluck to them I think. Do horse breeders make a profit? Not all of them. Depends upon their level of involvement and the cost of their initial investments. And most "successful" horse breeders tend to go into it with big money behind them anyway. There's an old saying, to make a small fortune from breeding horses, you have to start with a large one! It's also a bit harder to compare because horse breeders have a different attitude as well....to many/most it IS a business. And given that most horses only have 1 foal per 12 months, it's hard to equate the expenses between horses and dogs. From MY experience with my first foal though, vet fees were minimal compared to the vet fees for a litter of puppies. Registration fees were comparable. Branding for one foal is roughly the same as microchipping a couple of puppies. Vaccinations are cheaper and most can be self-administered. The biggest difference was feeding mother and foal for around 6 months as against 10 - 12 weeks. But I could now conceivably sell the filly as a partly-educated 2yo for over $3k. Not that I will.

You're very welcome. Glad I could help!

I've never understood that either. If breeders continually go into the red to provide us with quality healthy pedigree dogs, they'll just stop breeding. raz, they've/we've been doing it for years. For me, it's the enjoyment I get from the puppies and the fact that I only breed when I want something new for myself. After 24 years I've kind of grown accustomed to the idea of having to pay good money to participate in what isn't a cheap hobby. I mean, look at people who play golf or sail boats or race cars as a hobby. I'd venture a guess that very few of them get much of a return despite outlaying good money to participate.

Troy Nutri Pet Supplement Composition Contains Vitamins A, D, E, B1, B2, B6, B12, Nicotinamide, Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Iron, Manganese, Magnesium and Iodine in a palatable base consisting of fats, proteins and carbohydrates, providing approximately 1500 kilojoules of metabolizable energy per 100g. Nutrigel COMPOSITION PER 100 GRAMS: Vitamin A 15,650iu; Vitamin D3 900iu; Vitamin E 83iu; Thiamine HCl (B1) 28.3iu; Riboflavin (B2) 3.3mg; Pyridoxine (B12) 13.3mg; Cyanocobalamin (B12)31.7mcg; Nicotinamide 31.7mg; Calcium Pantothenate17.2mg; Folic Acid 3.3mg; Iron 7.8mg; Iodine 8.3mg; Manganese 16.7mg; Magnesium 6.3mg TYPICAL NUTRITIONAL VALUE Crude Fat 35.0%; Crude Protein 1.3%; Carbohydrates 45.7%; Energy per 100g 1351kJ 323kCal They look roughly the same although the Troy appears to be higher in calories but I do prefer how the Nutrigel breaks down the composition more in the description. ie, you can see how much of exactly which type of B12 etc are in it. It can be difficult to get the Nutrigel here too but I do prefer to have it on hand. Old habits die hard!

There is published information about the risks of juvenile desexing. There is evidence to show that it may be detrimental to the growth patterns of young dogs due to the influence of hormones on developing bones. Dogs desexed as juveniles in some breeds grew taller and finer in appearance than their sexually mature littermates. I also recall reading somewhere only recently that early desexing has an influence on bone density, possibly leading to a higher risk of fractures in later life. That said, I know of many breeders now who desex companion puppies routinely. I do not do it myself YET but am seriously considering doing so for future litters. I do sell on a spey/neuter agreement and thus far, possibly because I screen my puppy people so carefully (probably almost pedantically some might say), I have had reasonable success with neutering prior to 12 months of age. As far as costs are concerned, I would probably slightly raise puppy prices to take desexing into account. One of the major advantages of selling puppies already desexed is that there is absolutely NO doubt of breeder intention and purchasers cannot come back at a later date saying that they didn't understand a spey/neuter agreement. Of course, the biggest risk of early desexing, especially if you are like some breeders who do not sell puppies to show/breeding homes, is that you run the risk of desexing a top quality puppy that may have ultimately ended up in the ring or in a breeding program making a very positive influence upon the breed. But tha t said, those puppies can still be shown as neuters and obtain a Neuter title. Not every dog that is titled could, or should be bred from so a Neuter title would be a nice compromise in some cases, provided the judges take the Neuter classes as seriously as they should take entire classes.

It has NEVER (in recent times anyway) been considered a mark of success to make money from breeding puppies.....to break even is probably the most many breeders can ask for. A litter of 5 is average for my breed. Price of one puppy for the stud fee, very close to price of a second puppy for freight to and from the mainland for the bitch to be mated. Close to the price of a third puppy for ultrasound and xray for the pregnant bitch, vaccinations, registrations, microchipping and desexing if done as a juvenile (many breeders are doing this now). Roughly the price of another puppy for food, worming, supplements and incidentals plus power for heatlamp and heat pad for the whelping box, lighting and room heating for the supervising humasn 24/7 for the first week, costs of printing, toys and other items for puppy kits. Possibly cost of advertising if litter not sold via other methods. And if you're really unlucky....the cost of another puppy for c-section and associated care for the bitch. And even if there is some left over, most breeders absorb it back into "paying themselves back" for the other expenses which occur for dogs between litters. Once off things like hip, elbow and shoulder scores and DNA testing and annual things like eye testing by veterinary opthalmologists for all dogs in a line, and often pet littermates or older dogs which have been retired to pet homes but are still within the guidelines for testing due to age. I can honestly say that some of my litters have been break-evens, but usually only those where I wasn't down the gurgler already by being able to use my own stud dog. And I've also had litters where I have paid the freight to send a bitch interstate for a breeding and she hasn't fallen pregnant. Those costs come out of my pocket with no reimbursement from the litter. And likewise, I've had bitches go interstate, come back in whelp and then lose the entire litter during a c-section so I've had the costs of the freight AND the c-section to cough up for. My ONLY real "profit" from a litter was my litter of November last year. 9 Stafford puppies....BUT.....after costs came out, and taking into account the value of the bitch that was stolen.....surprisingly, there still wasn't a large profit left. The more puppies you have, the more they eat and unlike feeding older dogs, generally the more puppies you are feeding the prices of food doesn't actually get all that much less. I also keep my puppies until they are around 10 or 11 weeks (sometimes longer) and this too added to the expenses because of the extra wormings and in some cases, extra vaccinations which also don't get cheaper as the puppies get older. So yes, it is definitely possible to make a small "profit" but it isn't generally a "clear profit" because if you're doing things properly, there is generally always something to buy, finish paying for, or reimburse yourself for. BUT I wouldn't have it any other way.

For facilities, I'm told that WA blows the socks off the competition. But for sheer numbers of shows, I'd have to say NSW. You can travel in any of 5 or 6 directions on any one weekend and find a show of some kind.

And as I said, they've said exactly the same thing to me. But rather than complaining AGAIN and AGAIN, if it meant so much to the OP, they could have phoned the RSPCA and asked them for any information on the outcome of the FIRST complaint. At worst, they would be fobbed off, at best, they'd have peace of mind. In my situation, I didn't bother following up because I had cause to re-visit the council pens again and they had been cleaned up in comparison to their state when I first saw them. Still not to MY satisfaction, but sufficiently. HOWEVER, they have still not been covered and with summer coming on and supposedly enhanced Dog Management laws, if a roof doesn't go on them pretty darned smartly, I'll be writing another letter to the General Manager of the Council to ask why not and if it still doesn't happen, then I'll contact the RSPCA again.

The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! :p Can we stick to the point at hand instead of twisting things around, as per usual? lol Huge difference between you placing a sign outside your property once in a long while and these people who are obviously breeding various breeds of dogs and also on a very regular basis, don't you think? Some of you can be so childish when trying to prove a point and the ability to twist things around is quite astounding, lol. Isn't it just. How can you say they are 'obviously breeding various breeds on a regular basis? You also said there's only a slim chance the dogs are being well cared for - all on the basis of a sign placed out the front of a house. Is that not twisting things? How do you know this person isnt a rescuer, adveritising puppies they've saved from a puppy farm or pound? Well, I did say repeatedly that if it had been me driving past I would have stopped to see the situation first hand before ringing the RSPCA. I also did admit to being presumptious, we are all presuming this, that and the other; you yourself can be regarded as "presumptious" in assuming that they may advertise puppies they've saved from a farm or pound, none of us know the real situation. I somehow doubt that they are advertising pups obtained via the pound though.... I am not basing my opinion merely because of a sign hung outside the property, it is also based upon the fact that they seem to forever be selling pups of various different breeds that raises doubts...basically, we are all going round in circles....they may be doing this, they may be doing that.....god knows what they're truly doing, we are all just guessing. EXACTLY!! And until there is concrete EVIDENCE of animal mistreatment....the point is that it is completely over-the-top to be continually dobbing somebody in to the RSPCA! OKAY, I HEAR YOU AND YES I AGREE! I dont think it is fair to be constantly barraging the RSPCA with phone calls....my only point was that I would have hoped for the RSPCA to at least contact the complainant and let them know that they had looked into the situation and that all was up to par. Dare I say "HALLELUJAH!!"????? Moselle, it isn't necessarily going to happen. If you search back to last year, you will find a thread where I found a small dog on the side of the road and despite wanting to bring him home, I had unvaccinated puppies here so I took him to the local council depot and he went into their pens. I was absolutely horrified by the state of those pens and now wish that I'd taken the risk and brought him home anyway. I was so appalled by the pens, that I rang the RSPCA and made a complaint. They told me that they would look into it and asked me if I wanted to be advised of the outcome. I told them I did. That was nearly 12 months ago now......I'm still waiting for the promised call. Anybody who truly believes that the RSPCA will follow up on each and every situation, is living in la-la land. Just MHO.

:p I really and truly feel like I am chasing my tail here. Moselle, I think you will find that NOBODY here likes or condones commercial breeders or commercial breeding facilities. BUT....that is really beside the point. The OP has made some snap judgements about a particular set of premises which may, or may not be, a commercial breeding facility. They made judgement about the condition of animals inside the property based SOLELY upon their OPINION of the external appearance of the premises. It matters not whether the facility in question is breeding one litter of one breed or fifty litters of fifty breeds, what is being held up here for questioning is whether or not they have the right to report the facility to the RSPCA on numerous occasions based upon assumption and not what they have actually SEEN with their own eyes. If the OP had posted here and said that they saw a sign which had changed numerous times for numerous breeds, and that the exterior of the property looked like crap and that they had actually been behind the gates and SAW evidence of neglect or mistreatment and then called the RSPCA on multiple occasions, that would have been an entirely different scenario altogether and in all likelihood, they would have received the pats on the back that they were apparently seeking. But they didn't.....

I notice that the OP hasn't had a lot to say that's for sure. It really only seems to be Moselle that isn't "getting it" at the moment. There really isn't that much to get. Without evidence of mistreatment or neglect, there are no grounds to call the RSPCA. It is not illegal to own a large number of dogs. It is not illegal to own a large number of dogs of more than one breed. It is not illegal to breed puppies and kittens to sell. It is not illegal to breed more than one breed of puppy or kitten to sell. It is not illegal to put up a sign (where council regulations permit such things) to sell anything, INCLUDING puppies and kittens. It is not illegal to have a messy front yard. If a person has a messy front yard, this is a council matter and not an RSPCA matter. It IS illegal to harrass people. Reporting somebody to the RSPCA on a regular basis without PROOF of neglect or mistreatment IS vexatious. Making assumptions about what is behind a person's fences or doors is really not a clever way of making friends or influencing people. If you really ARE concerned, then before you make the call to the RSPCA, by all means go and take a look under legitimate circumstances and make yourself aware of the PRECISE issues, not those that you think are lurking there.

The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! Can we stick to the point at hand instead of twisting things around, as per usual? lol Huge difference between you placing a sign outside your property once in a long while and these people who are obviously breeding various breeds of dogs and also on a very regular basis, don't you think? Some of you can be so childish when trying to prove a point and the ability to twist things around is quite astounding, lol. Why is it twisting things around? I live on 25 acres in the country. Why SHOULDN'T I put up a sign advertising my kennel and stud and any puppies or foals that I may have for sale? And why shouldn't I leave it there? Would save it being put up and taken down all the time. That would take my time away from my family and my animals. I have entire bitches in 3 breeds....but only 6 dogs in total. I've had bitches of two different breeds with litters of puppies at one time.....and I live in a property that spends more time being unkempt than it does botanical garden tidy....but do feel free to report me to the RSPCA. You wouldn't be the first, you probably won't be the last and I'm happy to say that I'm still around to talk about it AND keep breeding and owning my dogs!! If I could be arsed, I would most definitely put up a sign. But if in doing so, I'm going to invite the ADDED unwelcome attention of do-gooders making assumptions based upon my sign and how my property looks, then that would most certainly make me think twice. And that is a pity because I can see that signage would be another useful tool that the reputable breeder could use to educate potential puppy purchasers.

The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! Can we stick to the point at hand instead of twisting things around, as per usual? lol Huge difference between you placing a sign outside your property once in a long while and these people who are obviously breeding various breeds of dogs and also on a very regular basis, don't you think? Some of you can be so childish when trying to prove a point and the ability to twist things around is quite astounding, lol. Isn't it just. How can you say they are 'obviously breeding various breeds on a regular basis? You also said there's only a slim chance the dogs are being well cared for - all on the basis of a sign placed out the front of a house. Is that not twisting things? How do you know this person isnt a rescuer, adveritising puppies they've saved from a puppy farm or pound? Well, I did say repeatedly that if it had been me driving past I would have stopped to see the situation first hand before ringing the RSPCA. I also did admit to being presumptious, we are all presuming this, that and the other; you yourself can be regarded as "presumptious" in assuming that they may advertise puppies they've saved from a farm or pound, none of us know the real situation. I somehow doubt that they are advertising pups obtained via the pound though.... I am not basing my opinion merely because of a sign hung outside the property, it is also based upon the fact that they seem to forever be selling pups of various different breeds that raises doubts...basically, we are all going round in circles....they may be doing this, they may be doing that.....god knows what they're truly doing, we are all just guessing. EXACTLY!! And until there is concrete EVIDENCE of animal mistreatment....the point is that it is completely over-the-top to be continually dobbing somebody in to the RSPCA!

Bad Alice and the Gang of 9 were certainly camera-fodder!

Forgive me saying so, but that's the biggest load of codswallop I've ever seen!!! I've been a registered breeder for over 17 years and have ALWAYS had to do some advertising to sell my puppies (possibly because I don't show). I think that SACA saying that borders on defamatory - implying that anyone who has to advertise must be a BYB. I agree entirely! I have frequently placed ads on places where BYBers and millers tend to congregate. For two reasons, firstly because it gives the BYBers and millers a "run for their money" and gives puppy people the option to purchase a dog from somebody who will hopefully provide a better puppy and WAY better "after sales' service" than the others and secondly because it makes economic sense to have ads where the puppy people are going to look when they're in the market for a puppy. I have also placed ads when I don't have puppies in an effort to be in a position to educate puppy purchasers and hopefully steer them in the right direction when it comes to selecting a new family member. Advertising there doesn't mean you are legally bound to sell a puppy, but it puts you in the right place to at least be able to ask the right questions.

Wasn't us....we're angels! American Cocker puppy meets Staffordshire Bull Terrorists....they look harmless enough...all cute and quiet in their pen! OMG.....I've woken them up......they move......they chase!! Mummmmmmmyyyyy!! I don't wanna play any more.....they're mean!!!

American Cocker Club BIS - Ch Staryanks Raindrops On Roses (Wilkes) (sired by Ch Ellz New Sensation).

I've got corded Wahl's and Wahl Moser Arcos (uncorded) and I prefer the Arco. I also have Osters which tend to run hot. My bargain buy were a set of Lazor RX from Clipperworld. Can be used with a cord, or as cordless. I liked them so much, I purchased a second set and I use them on my horses as well. Generally, the pet clippers available at department stores are rebadged human type clippers which don't cope well with dog hair.

Thank you for the replies so far. I know it is such a personal thing.....and I guess it's the camera version of the Ford vs Holden argument! I would never aspire to being a professional photographer but the appeal of taking nice photographs is very strong. And I enjoy doing it so much that thought of having a really nice camera to do it with is a bit of a buzz. It's not about instant gratification so I don't mind waiting to buy something new...I'll be like a kid at Christmas anyway! And if I bought the Canon, I'd have to wait a while to use it whilst I saved up the money for the lens so one way or another, it would take a while. My mentor did say that whilst he would sell me the Canon at a good price, he personally doesn't feel that it is the right camera for me so I should put in some thought about it.

I'd be taking her to the vet sooner rather than later if there is an odour coming from her ear. Treating it for ear mites, if it ISN'T ear mites, isn't going to make a lot of difference other than to possibly delay the treatment and recovery of other issues.

The redhead is gorgeous but yes, he does have a fat ass. Bad bad ellz!!! *sigh* He's the one person on earth I can stand next to and have my ass look smaller and now I've got to make him lose it.

Make sure he looks muddy, will you! I could do that. And if I have at least a year's notice I could probably slim him down a tad too! Oh and don't forget my horses....the redhead is too fat.

;) What's your address, ellz. I'll report you every three days so I can become a vexatious complainant as well Will PM it to you raz. It's all in the name of closing down puppy mills after all so is therefore considered a public service. But could you let me know when you report me so that I can be sure to kick Roger off the bed well in advance of the inspection so that he looks particularly disgruntled !!

The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!!