piper

I am glad you have a supportive breeder. Even if you suspect it is injury related it is good you let her know. I hope when he does the arthroscopy no further surgery is needed. Good luck keeping your pup quiet and sane, I don't envy you prolonged rest with a BC pup!

Aw that's no good Tenille :D Can i suggest you contact the breeder and let them know of the diagnosis. Any reputable breeder will want to know about it.

This is a great thread, I am loving the stories. Xena98 - I also rememebr Milo on a course, LOL. Bet you wonder what you would have achieved these days with different training methods. Like I always thought Ricky lacked drive and motivation in agility but then I think back to how he was trained and some of his early lessons, no wonder the poor boy was slow and steady. I distinctly remember him being on lead (slip collar of course!) at agiltiy and trying to run ahead of me onto the dog walk at which point I was told to correct, do a sharp about turn and heel away. He was not allowed to go to the equipment until told and we had to repeatedly correct him and walk away until he would heel up to it and not look to step on :D Poor boy!! If only we knew then what we know now.

And I remember Rambo the JRT and his attitude at agility. LOL. I'm not sure how I got interested. My parents used to breed shelties and knew some other sheltie breeders that competed in obedience. They stopped breeding before I was born and when we got "my" first dog (well I considered her mine) I went to train privately with these other people my parents knew and everyone there but us (I was all of 9 or 10 I think) trialled. I hugely admired their dogs. But I think maybe I knew about trials before that and wanted to? My sheltie had some nervous issues though with other people so although she could do fantastic heelwork, stays and recalls she would never cope with a stand for exam - it took my brother 18 months to even be able to pat her. Then I became a teenager and things fall by the way side as Terranik said. I still wanted a dog to train and compete with but it wasn't doable. When I was 18 I got my first border collie Ricky and the intention was always to compete with him. Ricky enved up attacked and nearly killed by another dog when he was 12 months old. He never ended up stable enough to get through everything after that. He would come good for awhile but a small growl would turn him into a mess and whatever we had been doing at that time would fall apart, I did manage to get him into the agility ring and gain an AD. Due to him being attacked we were oferred another pup to help him get over it and get used to other dogs. So Reagan entered the house. Unfortuantely having limited training experience and trying to train a pup and an adolescent with issues due to being attacked was hard work and Reagan never got the training or attention that he should have. In those days prelims were needed for obedience and agility - both Ricky and Reagan gained prelims in obedience but never went further. Reagan gained his ADX in agility. Piper then entered the scene with serious intentions. She has her CD, AD (plus 4 ADX passes), JD (+1 JDX pass) and HIAsd (intermediate herding sheep and ducks) Poor Piper is a fantastic versatile dog that will turn a paw to anything and is so keen to please and as she was entering her prime for competing I gained a serious work injury so stopped training and have never really got back into it. About when I considered returning to agility she injured a leg and is no longer able to. Oh and somewhere in there the herding bug bit so driving a 250km return trip for 1 hour of herding became more attractive than attending a trial. And Jazz - well I enjoy her and will trial her in something other than herding. Just need to motivate myself. I think she will be a load of fun to train and trial. And that turned into an essay. LOL

It is surprisingly difficult to just stand there. I have only done 1 advanced run on ducks with Piper (for a hugely surprising pass) and it is So tempting to just take step. You have to make a conscious effort to not move. I guess because it is natural to move around and assist with body pressure. Getting the ducks around C while standing there was so challenging, I just wanted to move back and get out of their way. I am not sure it gets easier with time or not, guess I will find out. Dova - hope everything went well today. Some great training opportunities in bringing the stock in for real jobs. Was this at Cass's? I think a couple of my steepest learning curves were moving stock for other people. I picked up some hobby farms a couple of years ago that needed sheep brought in for the shearer. It was great fun and highly challenging, I wish I still had their contact details to find out if they need it done again. And you will get there for advanced the way you are coming along with your girls. You will beat Jazz and I into intermediate too at the rate we are going with training (does twice in a year count as training??).

Beagles - again it depends on the individual. But ours is happiest sleeping!! Or it could just be that Jessi seems low energy compared to the 2 BC girls? I was wondering about some of the other smaller gun dogs - Field, clumber, welsh springer?

Before you write Sony off, have a look at the A55 - some good features - if your KM lenses will fit it's worth a second look. Oohh thanks for that I hadn't found that model when hunting, will have to see what reviews I can find. My lenses should fit, the sony is supposed to be the mount and I have a couple of good lenses as well as external sony flash for it. I still only have the kit 70 - 300 so would want to upgrade that as well. Hmm more food for thought.... eta: just reading on dp review - I think I had heard it advertised as hybrid and figured it would be a lower entry level dslr, sounds a bit more than that.

I don't know if I am glad I ventured in here or not :p I am upgrading my camera and lenses sometime soon. I have an old Konika Minolta Maxxum 5D dslr and a few lenses. I am not too keen on the current sony offerings and don't think the range of lenses are as good value as Canon and there are seem to be a lot less to choose from. So I am thinking the 60D body (or maybe a 50D? I was looking at the 7D but thinking it may be a bit more expensive than I can stretch with new lenses as well) and I was looking at the 28 - 125 IS USM or 17 - 85 IS USM as my main walk around lens. Reading this I should add the sigma into my list of considerations as it appears to be in the same price bracket. Has anyone used either of the Canon lenses I have mentioned as well as the Sigma to be able to compare them? Thanks, and sorry for hijacking wagsalot ps: for zoom I am thinking the Canon 70 - 300 IS USM

Well if his poos are now nice and firm and he is no longer unwell, if eukanuba is what you want to feed him stop offering the chicken and rice. Put his food down and take it away after 10 or 15 minutes then give nothing until his next meal. They usually stop being fussy after a few meals and eat what is oferred

I wonder if his funny tummy was a bug picked up at the shelter? It might be worth getting him some probiotics as he has had a reasonable length of time with an upset tummy. I think you can just use the kids inner health tablets from the chemist/health food store. They help restore the good bacteria to the gut. Many years ago we had a boy who needed large doses of antibiotics and then had lots of bowel trouble until we saw a different vet who suggested probiotics for him. As for choking - I am sure it can happen but haven't seen or heard directly of it happening. Supervision and appropriate bone choices are the key.

Some breeders raise whole litters on raw diets and the pups will be chewing on bones appropriate to their size before leaving for their new homes. When Jazz arriced at 8 weeks she was fed a diet of about 2/3 raw and 1/3 quality kibble. Her raw food included chicken wings and she got these down without any problems at all. By 12 weeks she was having small pieces of lamb flap, a section of chicken carcass or a small beef brisket bone. I haven't heard of having to leave it untiil 6 months, and border collies are not excatly petite, gentle little things so should manage without any hassles. I will say that in my experience the pups who get a reasonable number of raw meaty bones seem to have less inappropriate chewing.\ as they get an appropriate outlet to exercise and strenghten their jaw and wear down those needle sharp puppy teeth as well as assist with teething. As he has had some upset tummy problems make sure you only introduce 1 new thing at a time so you can work out if anything is setting him off. Also you could start putting a little of the rice and mince mix in with his dry and see if he eats it that way. All of mine get too excited about their food to start picking through for the bits they like so I can usually get them to eat something they wouldn't normally just by puttin g something they link in there with it

What is his starting weight? I'm glad you are going to be working on geting it down with regular monitoring at the vets.

Yes I went and found the link for someone recently and it was like "oh it wasn't that much" - I am fairly sure it was cheaper than the ezycoat and oldfield when I got it. I have used a liberty and hated it - didn't have anywhere near the volume of the Double K or Ezycoat. Maybe it was just the 1 I used though?

I didn't think the sire was as big as 26kg but didn't want to say for sure as I only saw him in the flesh a handful of times. Knowing others from similar lines though it owuld have surprised me for him to be that large. I know with my 2 boys (different lines but both good average size dogs) at 22kg they were noticably too heavy. They were at their best at about 19kg when doing agility and in their retirement they settled to around 20 - 21kg. My girls - Piper is heavy at 17, good at about 16. Jazz at 17 is lean. 18 would be right for her, if doing agility I would probably keep her closer to 17.

Jules, you and I have the same bath and the same dryer. LOL. I have to say the Double K has gone up lots since I got it and I would probably buy something different if I was buying now due to price. I do love it though. As a more budget option I know someone that recently got this 1 for her BCs and is really pleased with it: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2800W-Dog-Pet-Groom...=item45f4d5a7db If you get them at auction rather than on buy it now they seem to go for around the $120 mark.

Yours gets more than any of mine - including my highly active hard to keep weight on girl. I haven't tried the canidade light food but would siggest reducing his food intake. I would be doing EITHER the dry food or the carcass/meat mix but not both. I feed about 50-50% raw/dry food so in your situation I would give dry 1 day and raw meaty bone the next. Jazz in a skinny phase gets around 2 cups of food a day (not light though) or a good size raw meaty bone. Piper on the other hand gets LESS than 1 cup of dry per day or a smaller raw meaty bone. I also have a beagle and if using chicken carcasses I split a carcass between Piper and Jessi while Jazz gets a whole 1 to herself. Right now I have Jazz at a good weight so have dropped her back a fraction, it is a careful balancing act with her before she loses condition. When I used to have my 2 old boys as well they got about 1 level cup of food per day or a raw meaty bone. To be honest I would not worry about the steak mix and would instead use other types of raw meaty bones - kangaroo is nice and lean if you can get it and also include some offal.

Thanks LP, I will get in touch with the club. I forgot to say extra big congrats given the conditions you had to do it in. Sounds like just staying on your feet was enough of a test let alone getting around a whole masters course

Congratulations LP - that is an awesome brag Maintaining the versatility in the working breeds is so important IMO. It would be fantastic to see the numbers increase over time in this competition. I want to donate something along those lines for the next BC Nationals (in honour of my Piper who qualified and placed in obedience, agility and herding at our first nationals) and would love to know how it was scored/judged as that is the bit I keep getting stuck on. I have had several ideas but can not work out a fair system. Who would be the best person for me to contact for some help with this?

That is good news the no abnormality was found. Of the 4 BCs I have owned every one of them has gone though a limping phase in the first year or so of life due to some soft tissue injury from hooning around and being silly. Good luck with the 3 weeks rest!! If you do clicker training or similar it is a great time for target and trick training to keep the mind occupied. Also some nice raw meaty bones and treat toys could be of use too. Just watch the food amounts as he is will be inactive he may not need quite as much as usual.

I'm going to Kates for a training session Friday arvo, Pebbles is entered in the MVA so a run will be very helpfull because she'll be in the car for about 10hrs or so tomorrow . I gotta get off the computer & back to packing the car, leaving before the spoggies even start to stretch in the morning & probably won't a wink tonight , I'm so excited . Good luck Dova - looking forward to hearing that Pebbles is officially crowned a versatile Aussie

First thing I would do would be lose the tinned food. As my vet has said - they are an expensive drink of water. How much in total does he get per day? If you feed what the packet says it is almost always too much. My border collie girls get around a cup of dry per day, 1 gets slightly over and the other slightly under. 3 or 4 days per week they get raw meaty bones. My old boys when they were around used to get just over a cup of dry. I think the packet says something like 2.5 cups for a dog of border collie size but even Jazz who is incredibly active would get fat on that amount.

My youngest BC was like that for ages. I don't remember what age it reduced but I remember we always used to comment on it. The other dogs would be laying quietly and she would be panting hard. The vet was never worried about it and she is as fit and helathy as can be. Jazz has always been very active though and it is more than just active, she puts 120% into everything she does, she aslways seems to put more energy into things than the job requires. I guess at some point she learnt to regulate it or developed the fitness so it wasn't as obvious. If in doubt, definitely get it checked but it could just be that he plays so hard (ps: don't forget to visit the BC thread and share piccies)

That is a different method to what I have heard, but I can see the sense of it. I am leaning to using inside flank commands as Jazz by choice will go out and around behind me. No idea why, not strictly instilled it in her (little cow will cross on a cast so she will go in there, lol) but if I give her a flank command she will come back around behind me. Piper also found it really stressful but I was trained by a 3 sheep man with her and the space between the stock and I was STRICTLY no go zone so inviting her in had her quite worried. I can't really remember how we got her going, and she never really did a true drive. It takes lots and lots of commands to get Piper to do it as she will try and creep back to the head of the stock at every opportunity. I do remember we did some work in a fairly narrow race with a large number of sheep and used the fact she didn't like forcing between stock and a fence to help keep her behind. Half my issue with Jazz is lack of training opportunities. Once every 3 or 4 months is not sufficient to really get it happening. What it was suggested I do with her to get her comfortable flanking between the sheep and I was to put her on a wait and cross her instead of having her cross me. So I get her to drop and walk behind her from 1 side to the other and send her as I pass her. She can cope with it with me even a half a step past her but as soon as I am level she will circle around me or get stressed and not do anything. She also has a nice walk up at most angles but I discovered she doesn;t have a full understanding as if it is in a dead straight line in front of me she won't do it. Unlike Piper who would fight me to get to the head if I ask Jazz to do it when she is in conflict she tends to just lay there and not move from the stop usually with some head turning and lip licking so it is very gently does it with her. I am fairly sure most of it is due to feeling like she is going to lose them and the limited training times we get meaning she doesn't learn that it is ok for them to move away and become confortable with that. At the time I was training driving with Piper I had stock access probably 3 weeks out of 4 and it makes a very big difference. So far Jazz has had more times on stock inside the trial arena than out of it.

Good topic:) I had decided Piper was retired with intermediate titles on A course for sheep and ducks. We hardly get any stock time so I decided increasing the drive to advanced level was not going to happen. Well, she is still retired from sheep but she has 1 advanced pass from her 1 attempt on ducks. SO next year at 10 years of age we will try and finish that off. Jazz has started A sheep and duck titles with 1 leg of intermediate ducks. We are still working on driving and ducks are easier as they do it more naturally plus the area is smaller. She is my freak of a dog, she really is barely trained and just goes out there and does things. Everytime I have entered her in the next class up I have said she is not ready and she blown me away. Her first trial run was a 99 and we had not trained a cast or penning. She is a nice wide worker and I am hanging out for a chance to do B course with her. Hopefully next year we will get more than 2 days of training (all we managed this year) so we can move up to intermediate in sheep as well. THis is a recent video of Jazz on ducks - it was just mucking around at a demo day and I think she knew there was no pressure as the cheeky little bugger decided to grab a feather or two. Normally I struggle to get her to come in off the fenceline she is so far away. And this is Jazz in Started A course: I kind of hate it but like it. It looks like the sheep are following through lots of it but I know they weren't for other dogs. Unfortunately I dont have a lot of Piper working but this is an old 1 of her: She is so much nicer now.Training question: How do people start to teach a drive and do you put a different command on for inside flanks?

Interesting you ask. I walked past ours yesterday and was shocked to see not an oodle in the window. Instead they had Old English, White Shepherds, Rotty x GSD and Lab x can't remember what. I was shocked they were all big breeds and not the normal pet shop stuff. I didn't notice any signs up about not using puppy farms but I did wonder if they had suddenly changed where they were getting dogs from or if it swas just a coincidence that they had 4 whoops backyard litters in at once (at least I assume they are all whoops/BYB litters).